Greece a top tier civ? I think not

[snarzberry]

I've noticed recently that a few players who claim to be deity beaters have been saying that they rate Greece as among the top few civs, even challenging for top overall. I am at a loss to understand why. I can't put them anywhere near the top of the bunch, there are at least 6 - 8 civs that I think are clearly better than them and a number more that I think are about the same level.

So I just wanted to get peoples ideas about why they rate Greece as they do, be it high, low or somewhere in between. I have high level play in mind, but I'd also like to hear any arguments one way or the other for mid levels.

Now for my opinon - the UA is nice, it's their redeeming feature, and why I don't put them way down my list, but their weakness for me comes down to their units which is a big part of what makes Greece - Greece. Awkward spots in the tech tree, obsolete in a flash, no legacy bonuses, crappy upgrade paths and it's a horseman and a spearmen i.e. not exactly powerhouse units when it comes to taking cities. If your UUs come that early that's exactly what you want to use them for.

So I'm particularly asking imm/deity players that rate Greece, do you actually go on a big conquering spree with these UUs? Do you make comparable gains to other early UUs like mohawks, keshiks, mandekalu cavs, legions/balistas, bowmen etc?

For winning on high levels are they really a top civ? Better than Babylon, Siam, Mongolia, France, Persia, China, Songhai?

 

[ShahJahanII]

I've noticed recently that a few players who claim to be deity beaters have been saying that they rate Greece as among the top few civs, even challenging for top overall. I am at a loss to understand why. I can't put them anywhere near the top of the bunch, there are at least 6 - 8 civs that I think are clearly better than them and a number more that I think are about the same level.

So I just wanted to get peoples ideas about why they rate Greece as they do, be it high, low or somewhere in between. I have high level play in mind, but I'd also like to hear any arguments one way or the other for mid levels.

Now for my opinon - the UA is nice, it's their redeeming feature, and why I don't put them way down my list, but their weakness for me comes down to their units which is a big part of what makes Greece - Greece. Awkward spots in the tech tree, obsolete in a flash, no legacy bonuses, crappy upgrade paths and it's a horseman and a spearmen i.e. not exactly powerhouse units when it comes to taking cities. If your UUs come that early that's exactly what you want to use them for.

So I'm particularly asking imm/deity players that rate Greece, do you actually go on a big conquering spree with these UUs? Do you make comparable gains to other early UUs like mohawks, keshiks, mandekalu cavs, legions/balistas, bowmen etc?

For winning on high levels are they really a top civ? Better than Babylon, Siam, Mongolia, France, Persia, China, Songhai?

My favorite civs (in order) are China, Babylon, Persia, and Mongolia.
Greece is a fair civ, but a few downsides to it are that its UUs don't have abilities that carry on when upgraded.

 

[Ranos]

I'm only up to King atm, but I think greece is one of the better civs. It has good diversity in victory due to its UU and UA.

Go straight for Bronze Working and start pumping out Hoplites and no one is going to have anything to match it unless they rush swords. Good for some early conquest. That can help put you on top for a Domination victory.

Their UA makes them the best civ for Diplo victory.

Their UA means its easier to keep Cultural CSs helping out immensely with a Culture victory.

Their UA means you can have more CSs and going for Scholasticism can give you a decent science boost for a Science victory.

Sure they aren't the best for Domination, Culture or Science but they have more diversity than most civs.

My next game is actually going to be Greece on Pangea to see how fast I could get a Domination vic.

 

[Jimbo30]

People are too willing to confuse good with easymode. How can anyone actually lose below immortal with the Mongols for example.

 

[_hero_]

Best is a very subjective term in this game. There aren't any civs that are broken to the point where no one can contend. Greece has some huge advantages that can easily make them the best. Any strategy which is centered around having lots of city-states is going to make Greece the best at that strategy if for no other reason then because they get twice as many turns of influence out of their gold. If you are trying to stay allied to 10-20 city states at a time in a game, you'll be spending heaps of gold. If you're Greece you end up spending thousands less gold over the course of the game.

I could see how a Scholasticism-centric strategy with Greece could be deadly. A side bonus is that Greece is one of a small number of civs that can actually take cities early without iron.

 

[Aspon]

I wouldn't say Greece are the best hands down but the ast majority of diety beaters including myself think that its either Greece or China. a city state strat can be highly effective it still provides a significant science boost albeit not as essential or game changing as before and the added culture and rapid growing of cities is very helpful. heck you build all production improvements and trading posts and rely soley on maritime states for your cities to grow.

greece can have more allies cheaper and quicker then other civs so yes they are very competitive.

China are also effective due to there mil boost. If i had to pick I would probs go with China because you get declared on a heck of a lot on deity.

but its very close I would probably say Greece for conts and China for Pang.

If you get a good start you can take out a civ or two with the greek horsemen they are 20% stronger then usual, and have an extra move quick hit and run tactics with 6 horses can take out the first civ or two, you need a lucky start to get them quick enough and have to be fast though.

 

[ArcaneSeraph]

Yeah I've noticed this trend towards people claiming greece to be amazing @ Deity and I really don't understand it whatsoever.

Their UA is easy trumped by a very large number of other civs. Siam being the obvious one but also Russia, Arabia, and Spain frequently can have far more CS allies due to the fact they simply have more gold.. not to mention their bonuses are far more versatile.

Greece's UUs are also rather substandard. The hoplite is especially weak when you compare them to the other early game UUs such as legions, war elephants, bowmen, or mohawks, to name a few. The companion calvary are a bit better but considering the early and numerous availability of spear units... they are a big risk to use. Also considering their location in the tech tree, you have to go out of your way to get them. Alternately, going for swords or pikemen are more along the ideal research tracks so you wouldn't be slowing yourself down to grab them.

Babylon by far and away is superior. France, Siam, Russia, Arabia, China, Songhai and Egypt are generally superior civs than Greece for high level play.

 

[DaveMcW]

One of the biggest benefits of playing Greece on deity is you won't have Alex as a neighbor.

 

[snarzberry]

I wouldn't say Greece are the best hands down but the ast majority of diety beaters including myself think that its either Greece or China. ...

If you get a good start you can take out a civ or two with the greek horsemen

Firstly, I don't know how you arrived at that first assertion but I'll take short odds that you're dead wrong about that. You presumably have formulated that opinion by reading this forum and I think that if deity players here were polled then China would finish about 4th or 5th and Greece would be nowhere near the running - just my opinion ofc .

Now to your second assertion, that it's possible with a good start to take out 2 civs using Companion Cavalry. I assume you are talking about deity level and I'll understand 'take out' to mean that you capture their capital and leave them with not more than 1 city. Okay, don't mean to be rude, but I'll call you out on that one as I think you're off your head! Screenshots/save files would be great. Something tells me that turn 70 - 90 (earliest feasible for the conquest of the second civ) besieging cites with strength >20 is not going to work out too good for your horsies. I'll eat my words if I'm wrong.

Take it as a good natured challenge, I'd love to be proven wrong as I'd be learning something new .

 

[_hero_]

Firstly, I don't know how you arrived at that first assertion but I'll take short odds that you're dead wrong about that. You presumably have formulated that opinion by reading this forum and I think that if deity players here were polled then China would finish about 4th or 5th and Greece would be nowhere near the running - just my opinion ofc .

It's easy enough to go get some data on your views here. Why not make a poll, "Which civs are easiest to win with on Diety." It wouldn't be hard proof but you'd think it would at least give something of substance to the discussion instead of pure conjecture.

 

[Optional]

Apart from doubts about the success of this early warmongering, wouldn't it also not prevent Greece from getting the most out of its special ability? I mean ruined diplo rep > no nice deals with other civs > no money to buy CS influence?

 

[Aspon]

No I did not get the opinion of Greece and China been so good from this forum I got the opinion by trying out a number of civs and using my brain to think things through.

as for taking out civs with comp calvery it can def be done its even been posted on youtube. but as I said you need a lucky start. on my first deity beater i killed egypt this way, anyone know the software for making videos i can make videos and post them next time, note to wait a few weeks as I have a holiday then an exam coming up so after the game i finish today i wont be able to play for a few weeks

(they need a suicide face)

 

[Silverfuturist]

I don't consider Greece as one of the top civs in SP. When it comes to CSs, I think Siam is much more powerful, I would rather have 50% bonuses than a 50% decline rate - it is like having 50% more CSs. Greece saves money, but money can't create more CSs.

In MP, I think Greece is a better civ than in SP, because you don't need iron to defend an iron rush and you also don't need iron to rush a neighbor - you can even rush before IW is discovered. The often seen Mohawk rush is not a problem with Greece as well. The CC is also nice to have early, with Greece you pretty much don't have to worry about getting knocked out in the earlier eras with proper play. Off topic but in MP Siam is one of the weaker because your CS allies will have a very short shelf life.

 

[MadDjinn]

One of the biggest benefits of playing Greece on deity is you won't have Alex as a neighbor.

I don't consider Greece as one of the top civs in SP. When it comes to CSs, I think Siam is much more powerful, I would rather have 50% bonuses than a 50% decline rate - it is like having 50% more CSs. Greece saves money, but money can't create more CSs.

In MP, I think Greece is a better civ than in SP, because you don't need iron to defend an iron rush and you also don't need iron to rush a neighbor - you can even rush before IW is discovered. The often seen Mohawk rush is not a problem with Greece as well. The CC is also nice to have early, with Greece you pretty much don't have to worry about getting knocked out in the earlier eras with proper play. Off topic but in MP Siam is one of the weaker because your CS allies will have a very short shelf life.

Greece isn't even close to the top.

Science is the core of the game, and they get nothing there. Sure, their UA helps save cash (if you're spending in on CSs) but as stated here, I prefer Siams bonus over the Greek one. You can't generate more CSs.

Greece can survive the early rushes fairly easy, but the hoplite is useless once you hit pikes. (or at least, don't waste the upgrade for 1 combat strength)

Horses... sure, early wars are safer with them, but again, pikes come out far before the point where you can upgrade to knights. Even then, there's minimal benefits to making the CC before the knights.

They're good for an ancient era throw down, but then are forced to ally every CS on the map and go Patronage to have anything 'special'. Even then, 'special' is relative. They can possibly go for all CSs + RAs, but that's nothing too special since other civs that get better gold increases can do it as well. (and spend their money elsewhere)

oh, and china isn't near the top anymore.

 

[ColinTH]

Apart from doubts about the success of this early warmongering, wouldn't it also not prevent Greece from getting the most out of its special ability? I mean ruined diplo rep > no nice deals with other civs > no money to buy CS influence?

Agreed - Playing as Greece and to a slightly lesser degree playing as Siam, we attempt to make best use of City States which infuriates the AI civs, the knock on affect is no trading of any kind and DOWs left right and centre.
We simply can't compete with the AI civs on Deity level when it comes to gold and from my experiences by mid game the only City States we are likely to be allied to are the hostile ones! I sometimes wonder if filling out the Patronage Policy Tree makes the opposing AI civs even more hostile towards us, and perhaps more inclined to Ally and protect their neighbouring City States?
I am more of a tall City builder so Greece doesn't suit my play style in any way, shape or form.

 

[Shurdus]

Greece isn't even close to the top.

Science is the core of the game, and they get nothing there. Sure, their UA helps save cash (if you're spending in on CSs) but as stated here, I prefer Siams bonus over the Greek one. You can't generate more CSs.

Greece can survive the early rushes fairly easy, but the hoplite is useless once you hit pikes. (or at least, don't waste the upgrade for 1 combat strength)

Horses... sure, early wars are safer with them, but again, pikes come out far before the point where you can upgrade to knights. Even then, there's minimal benefits to making the CC before the knights.

They're good for an ancient era throw down, but then are forced to ally every CS on the map and go Patronage to have anything 'special'. Even then, 'special' is relative. They can possibly go for all CSs + RAs, but that's nothing too special since other civs that get better gold increases can do it as well. (and spend their money elsewhere)

oh, and china isn't near the top anymore.

But with Greece you need to spend less gold on CSs. You can spend that on units instead. If I am not mistaken, having the greece UA would have been very valuable in the Rome LP that you did, with all the city states that you had and everything.

 

[Dokebi]

One of the biggest benefits of playing Greece on deity is you won't have Alex as a neighbor.

BWHAHAHAHA!

 

[Hasire]

I wouldn't say Greece are the best hands down but the ast majority of diety beaters including myself think that its either Greece or China.

lol, neither Greece nor China is anywhere near the top civ. Greece is hands down worse than siam at patronage games, and patronage games have been nerfed very hard. Greece wasn't top tier before. If you are going for a diplo victory, the UA barely helps you as the easiest way to win diplo is to save up 10k of gold and buy city states on the last turn. Many games, I get civil services before bronze working. The UUs are so early and not very good.

 

[chazzycat]

it could be that a lot of people are just winning cheap early rush/duel maps with Alex. They do have nice early UUs.

 

[MadDjinn]

But with Greece you need to spend less gold on CSs. You can spend that on units instead. If I am not mistaken, having the greece UA would have been very valuable in the Rome LP that you did, with all the city states that you had and everything.

sure, having the greece UA might have saved me cash in the long run, but cash wasn't an issue. So it'd be moot point.

The greek UA works best (gold savings and still getting CS allies) when you're going 'tall' or have horrible gpt. That's not really 'good' give the two early UUs. You need to use them to go 'wide'/puppet fast, meaning that you'll have the cash.