Greecemod: Not a Byzwank, Promise (EU4 althist mod creation/discussion thread)

[SouthernKing]

I'm glad to see there's so much interest in this! I want this to be a more or less cooperative project instead of me dictating everything, so any contributions are not only helpful, but very welcome.

Spoiler :

alright, ive started working on the culture group map.

This is very much an early map, and expect changes.

and now without further ado:

Cultures:

Ooh, I really like this.

Obviously as you said this is early, but my suggestion would be to move Egyptian to Semitic, as Egypt probably warrants a separate culture but is Muslim and stands in the way of the route of Islamic conquests and is probably rather Arabized on top of Hellenized. Though the Arabs were probably Hellenized to some degree as well.

Also, I'd suggest waiting until we know what exactly is happening in Europe, including which Germanic tribes went where (I currently have the Goths in the south-central Balkans and the Lombards in Hungary, though nothing is set in stone whatsoever) before working there.

But I do like where you're going with this.

Speaking of Europe, my idea was to have a large unified pagan state in Germany, as there's a rather distinct lack of large unified states elsewhere, and also to serve as a pagan counterweight to Muslim expansion.

Can I semi-hijack this for Soufricamod?
I have some ideas for some of the national ideas for ISZ (which will apprear around 1700, but hey, USA has ideas)

Spoiler ISZ :

Traditions:
+30% manpower
+25% forcelimits

People of the Sky:
+25% missionary strength

Assegai:
+1 leader fire

Terror Tactics:
-2 revolt risk

Recruitment Reforms
+50% manpower

Never Yield:
Foreigners have +150% core creation costs

Impondo:
Infantry combat ability +30%

Adaptabiity:
-10% MIL tech cost

Bonus:
+1 free leader

Next up SOT (Sotho), which will get defensive bonuses and tolerance of heathens.
I'm also going to be making Bantu its own culture group and splitting it into:

• Chewa
• Zulu
• Xhosa
• Tswana
• Sotho

as well as

• Making Khoesan culture group for Khoikhoi and San
• making Malagasy culturegroup with Merina and some others
• Making Maasai be part of the same culturegroup as Ethiopia or Funj

Go for it

What are we going to about the Reformation? I assume Catholicism might not be best candidate this time. What do you guys think?

I hadn't even considered the Reformation, honestly. The alt-Catholics appear to be greatly bloated currently stretch from Turkey to China and Indonesia (unless we make an alt-Orthodox to go with it, and there aren't going to be many Christians in Europe whatsoever) so there's one possible route.

Or...I have no idea, honestly.

Because removing the Christian reformation gives us an extra two Christian sects to do whatever what (localized Chinese or Indian churches mayhaps?)

Oh also thing I noticed while doodling around on a copy of provinces.bmp yesterday
You're using an outdated map apparently - some of the provinces in former Swahili don't match up.
As such, the Africa component of the map/Soufricamod might work a bit differently than originally planned, but I'll see how it works when I get home from school

Oh, huh. Well, AoW is going to change the map quite significantly anyway, so consider this more of a comprehensive outline than anything final.

I would definitely be up for helping with the linguistic and cultural end of things, like names or alternate province names, or new colonial cultures and all that.

As for stuff that I'd personally like to see in...

Well, since the Han people are confined to Southern China, maybe have a Sino-Japanese Hata clan extant in western Honshu? Other stuff might be a surviving Emishi and Nakoku, and maybe pseudo Ikko-Ikki republic around Kansai or Shikoku?

I'd also like to have a East Sea Trade Federation similar to Venice or the Hansa spanning from Guangdong to Ryukyu to Luzon, both as a variation of one of my old standbys and as a tribute to Ryukyu WC in the base game.

And maybe a Fulani-run Empire of Takrur, if you would be so kind?

Obviously it's going to be a Tai monk nailing the 95 Sutras to the Wat of the Shining Lotus.

Certainly, that would be great

That would certainly be an interesting setup for Japan.

As for a Eastern Hansa-type thing (perhaps a medieval version of KR's Legation Cities) that would certainly work, as one plan I had was to make some of the coastal cities independent merchant republics or something like that.

I don't know pretty much anything about the Sahel pre-1950 but from a two-minute search on wiki said state appears to be centered around the coast, and could potentially even do some naval stuff in the Atlantic, which would be amazing.

Or the 95 Hadiths getting nailed to the wall of a Paris madrassa

Subbed. Thanks for Hellenic China! Will post more later.

Indeed, the kingdom of Serica (in OTL Sichuan/Chongqing) can into unifyings China

Magyarboo status activate.

They're probably in northern China or somewhere around there. I want to do something interesting with them but have no idea what.

While I'm thinking this is looking promising, my inner history major is making me address something irking me.

Hellenic = Greek culture dominated by ethnic Greeks (i.e. Pre-Alexander).
Hellenistic = Greek culture going beyond ethnic Greeks (i.e. Post-Alexander).

Just pointing that out.

Everything's looking good so far, though.

Thanks. What Megs said, but TIL

 

[Nintz]

One question I have is how you plan on modeling tech groups throughout the game. Do you want China to be western, or Europe to still be western primarily. Or something different entirely?

On the subject of the Reformation, a weird Christian/Zoroastrian hybrid is a possibility perhaps, considering both are monotheistic and in this TL Christianity would've gone through Zoroastrian lands. I am uncertain how conflicting the beliefs are beyond that due to a lack of Zoroastrian knowledge, but perhaps it is close enough to be plausible? If so it would certainly be a unique idea. If not, the fate of Zoroastrianism should still be considered. It wasn't really killed off until sometime in the 11th-13th centuries, and by time years and years of Muslim rule had slowly eroded the entire religion.

I will also note that should you have any particular things you need done, I have some modding knowledge and am willing to help if you don't have enough already. Same with playtesting. I have a tendency to break pdox games by looking for loopholes in the coding, so I hopefully can help bugfix if(hopefully when) this gets to a playable state.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Formally writing down what I said on chat, we should make Athens and most of the HRE allied in a war against Byzantine at the start. Byzantine would basically be this mod's version of vanilla Albania.

 

[Terran Empress]

Formally writing down what I said on chat, we should make Athens and most of the HRE allied in a war against Byzantine at the start. Byzantine would basically be this mod's version of vanilla Albania.

I think you mean Byzantium, like the city.

 

[SouthernKing]

One question I have is how you plan on modeling tech groups throughout the game. Do you want China to be western, or Europe to still be western primarily. Or something different entirely?

On the subject of the Reformation, a weird Christian/Zoroastrian hybrid is a possibility perhaps, considering both are monotheistic and in this TL Christianity would've gone through Zoroastrian lands. I am uncertain how conflicting the beliefs are beyond that due to a lack of Zoroastrian knowledge, but perhaps it is close enough to be plausible? If so it would certainly be a unique idea. If not, the fate of Zoroastrianism should still be considered. It wasn't really killed off until sometime in the 11th-13th centuries, and by time years and years of Muslim rule had slowly eroded the entire religion.

I will also note that should you have any particular things you need done, I have some modding knowledge and am willing to help if you don't have enough already. Same with playtesting. I have a tendency to break pdox games by looking for loopholes in the coding, so I hopefully can help bugfix if(hopefully when) this gets to a playable state.

I don't know what we're doing with tech groups, honestly. I'd kind of like to get political and cultures finished before we figure that out,

Tentative plans for Zoroastrianism are that it got displaced into the Central Asian steppes (Scythia, for one, is Zoroastrian), though what you're suggesting is possible.

Thanks, any help is appreciated! I'm not a very experienced modder either, for that matter.

---

Anyway, since I'm bored, he's a brief description of a hopefully complete Greece and Asia Minor, and a few of the surrounding states, though nothing here is set in stone.

Despite being responsible for the very genesis of much of modern civilization, Greece was never an integral part of the Argean Empire. By the time civil wars begin to play havoc on the Empire in the second. Alternating periods of hegemony and division continued, interspersed with occasional invasions from the north, the largest being by the Goths in the 4th-5th centuries, which made any expansion of Hellenic culture an impossibility. This cycle continued until the 12th century, when the Egyptians came from the south to establish Greece as part of their maritime hegemony that dominated the Eastern Mediterranean. By 1200, after a series of wars, Egyptian supremacy was secure.

The next two hundred years saw Greece chafe under Egyptian rule, especially their ham-handed and ultimately useless efforts to convert the populace to Islam; however, the Egyptian wars had borne a heavy cost, and it would not be until around 1400, when Egypt faced its own civil war between rival political factions at home, that Greece. A widespread rebellion began, with localized factions seizing power in cities across the region. This at first meant that the rebellion could not be put down, and independence was relatively easily won; on the other hand, it left Greece rather fractious and divided.

When Athens attempted to consolidate its power over the region, the region threatened war again. Athens was forced to cede a great deal of autonomy to the local authorities in order to retain peace, and what resulted was the development of a loosely aligned League; the only thing keeping the League together is the threat of external invasion from one of the region's many threats. And even that unity is precarious, as the League begins to suffer its own internal divisions. Athens must rely on its relative wealth and naval strength to keep the other states of the League in line.

One of the main rivals of Athens is the western state of Epirus, which has spent the last several years consolidating power, garnering a significant amount of wealth from trade, and developing into a relatively strong land force, and has the capability to challenge Athens for supremacy within the League.

Adjacent to those two are a trio of city-states, (south to north) Sparta, Corinth, and Larissa, who have the capability to become power players as the League's internal politics grow more tense.

The northern edge of the League is formed by Macedonia and Thracia, who have little interest in its complex politics, but remain in the League largely as protection against its vengeful, much larger northern neighbor, the Empire of Gothia (depending on whether the Goths actually migrated there or not, might be changed)

Across the sea lie more League states, (counter-clockwise from north) Bithynia, Phrygia, Lesbos, Rhodes, Caria, and Lydia. Although none of them are especially powerful at the moment, the potential is still there. Out of these, Bithynia and Phrygia are developing potential land powers, Rhodes is small but has grown wealthy from trade, and Lesbos has the POWER OF LOVE!!!

All of the league states are Hellenic.

Cyprus is the last holdout of Egyptian power in the region, and as such deserves mention.

Byzantium is a special case. This devoutly Christian, backwater city-state with dreams of empire had been previously tolerated by the other League members, as it had been an ally against the Egyptians, but the religious differences meant that joining the League was an impossibility. This proved to be Byzantium's downfall, as when diplomatic relations soured and a bizarre incident involving some sheep occurred in Athens, Athens and her allies promptly declared war. Outnumbered and outmatched, Byzantium will truly need divine intervention to survive.

Pontus is the other Christian state in the region, a petty kingdom which has surprisingly managed to remain independent of any other power for centuries.

Cappadocia is the successor state of an Egyptian province which once ruled the area, whose governors seized upon the opportunity of the rebellion to itself break off and establish itself as an independent state. Cappadocia's rulers are Muslim, though especially inland, its people are not. Cappadocia is the best hope to introduce Islam to the region.

Further east is Armenia, a large Christian kingdom. Between it and Cappadocia lies the buffer kingdom of Taurus, a Hellenic, Armenian-cultured state, whose days seem rather numbered as both sides look to swallow it whole. Toward the north, along the eastern Black Sea coast, is the Christian coastal kingdom of Colchis, an ancient state.

There is also Taurimark, a Hellenic state formed by some time ago a curious bunch of Norwegian-speaking colonists supposedly led there by a young, fair, blond-haired girl famous for her specific choice of weapon. Beyond that is Scythia, a Zoroastrian kingdom which has achieved legend among the Greeks as the land of the Amazons.

 

[Bair_the_Normal]

Proto-Magyars henceforth called Testveri (culture, that is; states will receive cool names shortly).

In Mongolia and Manchuria yadda yadda yadda.

 

[Kinich-Ahau]

Requesting Kerala blob in India.

 

[Sonereal]

JPEG?

Link to video.

 

[Bair_the_Normal]

Requesting Shostakovich's Second Waltz find its way into the soundtrack somewhere.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Just a minor potential problem I have just thought of. In the HRE there is a malus for electors voting for nations that are small. I think Athens and the big contenders should have a lot of "colonies" in the Med and the Black Sea to compensate for this.

 

[Omega124]

Or just remove the malus. That might be easier.

 

[SouthernKing]

Requesting Kerala blob in India.

I was thinking maybe Kerala could be a Christian state, of the alt-Orthodox variety or something different from the alt-Catholics.

Requesting Shostakovich's Second Waltz find its way into the soundtrack somewhere.

Perhaps. I dunno about soundtrack and not knowing anything about classical music, but quickly youtubing it sounds to me like something that would be cool to have playing during a war.

Just a minor potential problem I have just thought of. In the HRE there is a malus for electors voting for nations that are small. I think Athens and the big contenders should have a lot of "colonies" in the Med and the Black Sea to compensate for this.

Or just remove the malus. That might be easier.

I looked into this a little bit, and I think that malus only applies to OPMs, (I have never actually played in the vanilla HRE so I may be entirely wrong) in which case it's not a problem. I may be wrong, of course, and I'm not sure how to edit the HRE mechanics in that case (if that's even possible and they're not hardcoded)

---

Update. I realized I'm using a pre-CoP map so North America will have to be redone a bit.

Spoiler :

 

[Terran Empress]

Gonna post a new culture map and explanation once I get home.

 

[SouthernKing]

I found an existing mod that contains a number of extra religions that will presumably help this along nicely. Especially in the New World, where a religious split in North America would be quite nice.

 

[Terran Empress]

Culture map Update 1

Spoiler :

Cultures:

new cultures and groups are underlined

Hellenistic : (Thank you Tani for clarifying this)

• Greek
• Anatolian
• Armenian
• Georgian
• Gothic*

Semitic (rename of turko-semitic (always hated hwo those two were together)):

• Arab
• Egyptian
• Hebrew
• Syrian
• Phoenician

Iranian

• Persian
• Babylonian
• Khorasani
• Baluchi
• Scythian

Latin

• Roman
• Occitain
• Hispanic
• Illyrian

Gaelic:

• Breton
• Irish
• Welsh
• Scottish
• Gaulic

African

• Berber
• Every other African culture from base game (I don't know Africa sorry )

Baltic: (in Yellow)

• Prussian
• Lithuanian
• Latvian

Finno Ugric:
Same as the base game currently

North Germanic:

• Norwegen
• Danish (note may or may not appear)
• Sweedish
• Vinlander

East Germanic:

• Vandals
• Burgundians
• Rugii
• Goths*

West Germanic:

• Lombards
• Saxons
• Jutes
• Angles
• Thuringii
• Batavi
• Frisian
• Franks

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*A note on the Goths

Alright there are basically 3 or 4 options I can have for the goths, I would like your opinion, but this being SK's Mod (And my culture work ) his and my opinion will be taken into account the most.

In the History of the mod the Goths invaded Helinic Lands, much like how many of the West Germans invaded Latin lands.

Option 1:

The Goths became Hellenized and their culture became more greek than German. (Thus they would be in the Helinistic group)​

Option 2:

The Goths retained their German heritage, while absorbing some Grecian culture and tradition, but mostly staying German. (Goths in East Germanic Group)​

Option 3:

Gothic culture become its own culture group, split between Ostrogoths, Visigoths, and Helegoths (Helenic Goths).​

Option 4:

Gothic Culture split between Helenistic and East Germanic. (Note this could possibly be done in addition to option 3 with some fancy coding and events but would be more work for SK)​

That is all for this update hope to have some more soon.

 

[SouthernKing]

I could always change the Goths to something else, since it seems the mass Germanic migrations of the OTL 2nd-5th centuries didn't really occur. I would suggest that a few sporadic migrations by individual groups into neighboring territories occurred as a result of overpopulation and climate changes, instead of all the Germanics staying where they were pre-Roman times, but that's just me.

Latinboo Sam I think is helping on the Roman background for this, which does affect this.

I'm tired so I'll post something more constructive tomorrow when I'm less tired.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Some ideas I had from the chat:

-Hellenism should be divided into a bunch of "Misguided Heretic" religions (think Catholics vs Orthodox). There would be Hellenism (focused mainly in the HRE analog) and then the "outposts" would have their own separate faith (Chinese Hellenism, Indian Hellenism, Norse Hellenism ect). The alt-historical justification for this would be that when Alexander (or one of his successors) wasn't trying to conquer all of the things they reformed the Hellenic Church and made it more centralized (like Catholicism). After the Empire fell, the main branch of the Church lost it's sway and local variations popped up.
-We should have a reformation for Greek Hellenism, even if it is just to take advantage of the new Art of War mechanics.

 

[CivOasis]

Most obvious things I'm noting on a cursory view through:

I'm not sure what's happening in NA, but it looks a bit odd, and Vinland doesn't make any sense in this world

Romance cultures have an odd distinction; IRL, the Iberian languages split first along the Portu-Galician line, with protoCastilian/Aragonese/Leonese coming out afterwords. Catalan is closer to Occitan than the rest of the Iberian languages. Presumably, if there's as much Semitic influence around Iberia as is indicated, there should also be an alt-equivalent of Mozarabic dominating the peninsula, too.

If you're invading China - which is a bit odd; the migrations headed to Europe for a reason (namely that China was a bit more competent at defending itself), then southern China should not be Han, or even Sinitic - it was still largely Austronesian around this PoD, and you're distracting the population migrations and military events that would eventually lead to the Sinicisation of the region in the next several centuries.

 

[SouthernKing]

Most obvious things I'm noting on a cursory view through:

I'm not sure what's happening in NA, but it looks a bit odd, and Vinland doesn't make any sense in this world

Romance cultures have an odd distinction; IRL, the Iberian languages split first along the Portu-Galician line, with protoCastilian/Aragonese/Leonese coming out afterwords. Catalan is closer to Occitan than the rest of the Iberian languages. Presumably, if there's as much Semitic influence around Iberia as is indicated, there should also be an alt-equivalent of Mozarabic dominating the peninsula, too.

If you're invading China - which is a bit odd; the migrations headed to Europe for a reason (namely that China was a bit more competent at defending itself), then southern China should not be Han, or even Sinitic - it was still largely Austronesian around this PoD, and you're distracting the population migrations and military events that would eventually lead to the Sinicisation of the region in the next several centuries.

Vinland is based on the concept that the Norse were relatively unaffected by the events elsewhere, and had an era of expansion at the same time as OTL 8th-11th centuries. Its admittedly a bit of a leap as far as butterflies go but we've already done that by having Christianity and Islam exist. And its a thing i'd like to keep in.

I'll let you guys/Megs figure out Europe amongst yourselves, though I think we've decided a decent chunk of it is Muslim. Everything put there so far can be ignored. The only think I would suggest is Muslim Kent just for Nigel Farage's sake.

Re: china, I was under the impression that most of the sinicization of the south happened during the Han Dynasty, which I imagined still existing here in some form (until brought down by nomadic invasions from the west). But this can be changed. I don't imagine Hellenic China happening until the *Han falls.

 

[CivOasis]

It had started, certainly; it generally was reaching the final stages between the last few centuries BC, with the final holdouts collapsing around AD 150. So it's not *inconceivable* that large regions are at least partially sinicised. The problem was focused more on the idea that, if you're forcing migrations the other way right from the get-go, then China's focus isn't going to be south, it's going to be on defending the north and repulsing the invaders.