Greecemod: Not a Byzwank, Promise (EU4 althist mod creation/discussion thread)

[Terran Empress]

Best Finno-Ugrics go East.

Also Mohe Korea pls.

EDIT:

When and why did we decide no Slavs again?

I don't see why we wouldn't have slavs, I just don't think they would have moved west into Europe because the germans didn't move west and opened up eastern europe.

 

[Nintz]

Sure, setting up an SVN sounds like a good idea. I have no idea how to actually do this however.

I know of at least one mod that uses this, and I know the creators are still active on the forums, so I can ask them.

Though it occurs to me. If you're planning to do this via Steam Workshop SVN might not even be necessary, as I THINK multiple people can be tagged as creators and contribute to updates on that. I have no idea how this works however.




Also, on the subject of Eastern Europe. I would guess that the inhabitants of the area would most likely be some offshoot of either Scandinavian, Finno-Ugric, or maybe Germanic peoples. The further south areas could be Hellenic (in culture) as well. Talking like Bulgaria, Hungary maybe. Whatever shows up would probably be sufficiently differentiated from all ancestors to warrant a new group however. Unless the start date of this is going to be in ye olden days.

 

[NinjaCow64]

I know of at least one mod that uses this, and I know the creators are still active on the forums, so I can ask them.

Though it occurs to me. If you're planning to do this via Steam Workshop SVN might not even be necessary, as I THINK multiple people can be tagged as creators and contribute to updates on that. I have no idea how this works however.

From a non-modder programmer's perspective, source control software (which is what SVN is) is so useful. I really doubt that Steam Workshop would have a similar functionality (the ability to revert changes on the click of a button, the ability to merge two documents ect).

 

[Omega124]

Let's say we have a descendant of the ancient nation of Kokushi-koku (黒歯&#22269 as a clan called Kuroba (黒&#27503. Would it be incongruous to have the starting leader be named Kuroba Momohiro (Momohiro Kuroba in Western order), for example?

Actually, this really is not much worse than the puns involved in the Aragon missions, so this one is your call.

Spoiler :

And yes, this is a legitimate idea/suggestion I had.

Sadly, I don't understand this joke. Can you explain it?

As per Europe, some suggestions:

Unified Germany could work in theory. It would be a nice change from the HRE, at any rate. You might want to consider having the Franks take dominion in OTL Germany and the Alemanni in France, simply so you can have a Francia in Germany and an Allemange in France. I agree that a still-celtic France is cooler, so you can ignore the latter.

Eastern Europe should basiclly be a patchwork of moderately small Romuvan, Baltic states (About the size of 3-5 provinces each). These would include (old) Prussia, Lativa, Lithuania, (NOT Estonia; they're Finnic. Not that they can't be included, but they wouldn't be part of this grouping) and then some more obscure nations such as Galindia, Yotvingia, etc, etc etc. There should definitely be a culture union tag for the various baltic states, which should be called Balcia.

 

[Terran Empress]

Sadly, I don't understand this joke. Can you explain it?

As per Europe, some suggestions:

Unified Germany could work in theory. It would be a nice change from the HRE, at any rate. You might want to consider having the Franks take dominion in OTL Germany and the Alemanni in France, simply so you can have a Francia in Germany and an Allemange in France. I agree that a still-celtic France is cooler, so you can ignore the latter.

I was thinking instead it would be interesting to have 2 big west Germanic nations

Frankia - dominated by the Franks
And
Saxony - dominated by the Saxons

With a few smaller Germanic nations, say Frisia and Angleland (or something to that effect)

 

[SouthernKing]

Do we have any republics ATM?

I think a couple of the Greek states are(/should be - the HRE mechanics may make this impossible) republics. There's definitely the capacity for some more elsewhere, and there should be some republican influence wherever Hellenization occured. Aside from those, there's AFAIK a few republics in the Far East, including Tuunghai (that dark greyish nation in Ryukyu with a few Chinese coastal cities), which is basically an Asian Hansa.

Best Finno-Ugrics go East.

Also Mohe Korea pls.

EDIT:

When and why did we decide no Slavs again?

Mohe Korea added, though do you want all of Korea be Mohe? I left the very south open in case something else goes there.

See directly below.

I don't see why we wouldn't have slavs, I just don't think they would have moved west into Europe because the germans didn't move west and opened up eastern europe.

I may have misinterpreted this by accident as "no slavs" which is probably where that came from. So I guess some Slavs (maybe the Antes?) can remain in Romania or thereabouts.

Actually, I suppose they could have migrated to Bulgaria and become that state that was threatening Greece.

Let's say we have a descendant of the ancient nation of Kokushi-koku (黒歯&#22269 as a clan called Kuroba (黒&#27503. Would it be incongruous to have the starting leader be named Kuroba Momohiro (Momohiro Kuroba in Western order), for example?

Actually, this really is not much worse than the puns involved in the Aragon missions, so this one is your call.

Spoiler :

And yes, this is a legitimate idea/suggestion I had.

Sure, that kind of thing is perfectly acceptable

I know of at least one mod that uses this, and I know the creators are still active on the forums, so I can ask them.

Though it occurs to me. If you're planning to do this via Steam Workshop SVN might not even be necessary, as I THINK multiple people can be tagged as creators and contribute to updates on that. I have no idea how this works however.




Also, on the subject of Eastern Europe. I would guess that the inhabitants of the area would most likely be some offshoot of either Scandinavian, Finno-Ugric, or maybe Germanic peoples. The further south areas could be Hellenic (in culture) as well. Talking like Bulgaria, Hungary maybe. Whatever shows up would probably be sufficiently differentiated from all ancestors to warrant a new group however. Unless the start date of this is going to be in ye olden days.

I like the idea of somewhat Hellenized SE Europe, depending on where the Romans went.

Start date is still 1444.

From a non-modder programmer's perspective, source control software (which is what SVN is) is so useful. I really doubt that Steam Workshop would have a similar functionality (the ability to revert changes on the click of a button, the ability to merge two documents ect).

We should look into this then.

Sadly, I don't understand this joke. Can you explain it?

As per Europe, some suggestions:

Unified Germany could work in theory. It would be a nice change from the HRE, at any rate. You might want to consider having the Franks take dominion in OTL Germany and the Alemanni in France, simply so you can have a Francia in Germany and an Allemange in France. I agree that a still-celtic France is cooler, so you can ignore the latter.

Eastern Europe should basiclly be a patchwork of moderately small Romuvan, Baltic states (About the size of 3-5 provinces each). These would include (old) Prussia, Lativa, Lithuania, (NOT Estonia; they're Finnic. Not that they can't be included, but they wouldn't be part of this grouping) and then some more obscure nations such as Galindia, Yotvingia, etc, etc etc. There should definitely be a culture union tag for the various baltic states, which should be called Balcia.

don't explain the joke

Yeah, I think still-Celtic France has been decided upon, and while switching the two would be really cool I feel like it would get confusing after a while.

Saying again that Balts have been added.

I was thinking instead it would be interesting to have 2 big west Germanic nations

Frankia - dominated by the Franks
And
Saxony - dominated by the Saxons

With a few smaller Germanic nations, say Frisia and Angleland (or something to that effect)

You know, I actually like this better than what I came up with, and there's enough provinces in the region that even two countries there will both be very powerful. Or maybe something along the West/East Germanic split? Or do we want to do something else with the East Germanics?

Spoiler :

Added Mohe Korea, some Balt states in the region/into Russia (maybe borders could be redrawn to put more smaller states in the area) according to Megs's proposed setup, and the (Islamic) merchant republic of Tartessos in southern Spain, which Joan wanted in.

I want to make the Buddhist state down there the Moksha, because of the not-very-subtle pun.

Tell me if I'm making too many decisions on this for myself, since that's not what I want to have happen.

Edit:

Spoiler :

I had another idea, to split *Latvia into four smaller countries and have Latvia become another union, here's what that would look like.

 

[Civ'ed]

Ideas for Eastern Germany:
Vandals
Marcomanni

 

[NinjaCow64]

I reckon that the Greek States should have "colonies" in the Mediterranean and maybe the Balkans so they can be more stronk.

 

[SouthernKing]

Ideas for Eastern Germany:
Vandals
Marcomanni

Sure. Here's a map of where they all were in Roman times, for planning:

I like the idea of a Vandal Empire dominant in Eastern Germany/Poland, and a smaller Marcomannia in Bohemia or thereabouts, and another dominant state (Francia?) in the west, with some other, much smaller states scattered throughout. If we make Germany into two powers and a bunch of smaller states, Germany becomes sort of like Ivalice from Final Fantasy XII, which would be super-awesome

I reckon that the Greek States should have "colonies" in the Mediterranean and maybe the Balkans so they can be more stronk.

Sure. Who should have them (other than Athens), and where should they be? I can see a bunch in the Adriatic (reverse vanilla Venice!) and there's already Athenian Malta, but where else?

I also realized something. We could call this mod More Cowbell in Babylon

 

[Nintz]

Sure. Who should have them (other than Athens), and where should they be? I can see a bunch in the Adriatic (reverse vanilla Venice!) and there's already Athenian Malta, but where else?

If you go west a bit, Sicily, Tunisia, and Sardinia would be decent spots. Otherwise, I might suggest Dalmatia and Cherson. . Also Cyprus should be considered. Uncertain that should be Egypt.

 

[SouthernKing]

If you go west a bit, Sicily, Tunisia, and Sardinia would be decent spots. Otherwise, I might suggest Dalmatia and Cherson. . Also Cyprus should be considered. Uncertain that should be Egypt.

I feel like Tunisia should be independent as some Carthage successor if we're keeping with the current theme, and Sardinia might be a bit far, but all the others are good places. Cyprus will probably be changed as well, I'm starting to dislike it being Egyptian.

So Art of War is, obviously, adding a crapton of new provinces outside of Europe, which will, as we all know already, change the current outline a bit. So:
-North Africa: maybe add some Berber tribal states inland to act as a potential counter to whatever is on the coast. Also, more coastal provinces -> more potential colonial sites for the Greeks.
-West Africa: will just make the existing states significantly more powerful and wealthy,
-Anatolia: The existing states become stronger, particularly the eastern half of the *HRE, maybe one or two more *HRE OPMs.
-Middle East/Persia: More OPMs, some of the existing OPMs just become 2PMs or 3PMs instead, Persia itself should probably stay somewhat divided (well, as divided as vanilla France, anyway) with some of the OPMs locally being vassals (just like vanilla France)
-Central Asia: No major changes necessary, maybe add some more minor states here and there, moreso closer to Persia.
-China: could add more OPMs to the divided Shogunate, maybe some more in the south. And, again, more coastal provinces -> more colonies. Speaking of which, I think the Shogunate itself should be the eastern 3/4 of what's marked out, centered around *Beijing or somewhere east; the western 1/4, around Chang'an, should be another, somewhat larger kingdom than the rest, but still kind of weak.
-India: More OPMs, nothing really special.

 

[SouthernKing]

Spoiler :

Latvia reunited.

 

[Omega124]

I want a German France. I don't care if we have a Macroman or a Vandal state, but there better be a Frankish state. And don't give me a cop-out "Let's put the franks where burgundy is in EUIV". It should clearly and unequivocally be in OTL Germany proper.

Also yay on Lativa being reunited. Looks better that way

 

[SouthernKing]

Spoiler :

It is in Germany (That's Francia in blue, Vandalia in yellow, and Marcomannia in orange) The gap between Francia and Vandalia could be filled in by buffer states (vassals of one or the either) a la FFXII Dalmasca.

 

[Terran Empress]

I still think there should be a Frankish and a Saxon state fighting for control over the region.

If you wouldn't mind I would like to post my own map interpretation

 

[NinjaCow64]

Okay, I know that Sam has been given control of Rome, but I had some great ideas for them. Feel completely free to reject them if you want Sam.

My rationale was that people wanted an Islamic Rome for the lols and also a Hellenic Rome. Then I thought, how about both?

Going with the theme that Greece = OTL Rome, I thought that we could make Rome a sort of OTL equivalent of Carthage (which makes Carthage an OTL Greece sorry Carthage ;_. The Greeks and the Romans have a series of long and bitter "Punic Wars" where neither side wins. The Greeks then realize it would be easier to convert the Romans to Hellenism and make them into a client state. Thanks to Greek support, Rome stays stable but thanks to Greek pressure they don't leave Italy.

Greece collapses, Rome can breath on it's own a bit more. Around this time, Islam becomes a thing and becomes popular in all of Italy south of and including the city of Rome. Islam is treated like Christianity is OTL. Then there is an Islamic Emperor/Consul who makes it the state religion. Unlike OTL, Roman Hellenics don't take it lying down and cue civil war. Then a peace of Westphilia-esque thing happens and everyone goes home happy. Until 1444 when a terrible (0/0/0) Hellenic ruler gets put in charge and decides that Hellenism is the only religion again. Although the Hellenics stop mostly-Islamic Rome (the capital) from succeeding, the rest of the south declares a civil war and now they fight for the throne/consul chair.

Thoughts?

 

[Omega124]

As I said before, I mostly like Ninja's ideas. My only modification I would do is that the Islamic Rome should be a Despotic Monarchy while Hellenic Rome should be an Oligarchic Republic

 

[Terran Empress]

Why does islam always equal a despotic monarchy BOTH should be an Oligarchic Republic, the government of OTL rome didn't change when it became christian, why would it when it became Muslim.

 

[Krzowwh]

What are the states in China currently as on the map? What can be reorganized into the "Shogunate" system?

 

[SouthernKing]

I still think there should be a Frankish and a Saxon state fighting for control over the region.

If you wouldn't mind I would like to post my own map interpretation

Go for it, I'm not entirely pleased with mine, anyway.

Okay, I know that Sam has been given control of Rome, but I had some great ideas for them. Feel completely free to reject them if you want Sam.

My rationale was that people wanted an Islamic Rome for the lols and also a Hellenic Rome. Then I thought, how about both?

Going with the theme that Greece = OTL Rome, I thought that we could make Rome a sort of OTL equivalent of Carthage (which makes Carthage an OTL Greece sorry Carthage ;_. The Greeks and the Romans have a series of long and bitter "Punic Wars" where neither side wins. The Greeks then realize it would be easier to convert the Romans to Hellenism and make them into a client state. Thanks to Greek support, Rome stays stable but thanks to Greek pressure they don't leave Italy.

Greece collapses, Rome can breath on it's own a bit more. Around this time, Islam becomes a thing and becomes popular in all of Italy south of and including the city of Rome. Islam is treated like Christianity is OTL. Then there is an Islamic Emperor/Consul who makes it the state religion. Unlike OTL, Roman Hellenics don't take it lying down and cue civil war. Then a peace of Westphilia-esque thing happens and everyone goes home happy. Until 1444 when a terrible (0/0/0) Hellenic ruler gets put in charge and decides that Hellenism is the only religion again. Although the Hellenics stop mostly-Islamic Rome (the capital) from succeeding, the rest of the south declares a civil war and now they fight for the throne/consul chair.

Thoughts?

I fully support this idea.

What are the states in China currently as on the map? What can be reorganized into the "Shogunate" system?

All of these are just cobbled-together personal thoughts, with most names that weren't given stolen from 10-minute searches on wiki, and suggestions can (and probably should) be changed:

My idea for China's history was that the Greeks arrived just as the Han Dynasty collapsed, founding their own "dynasty" which lasted in some form for a few centuries before collapsing in the next round of invasions, which probably occurred some time around 600-700 CE. Those led to a horrendously fractured China.
-Huaxia (pale yellow) is the remnant ethnic Han country, probably a recently reunited group of former warlord kingdoms which survived the Hellenic and invasion periods without
-Tuunghai (dark), the Asian Hansa, which will have Ryukyu, Formosa, northern Luzon, and a couple of the coastal cities.
-Nanyue (grayish state in Vietnam-SW China), Yelang (purple), Dian (Yunnan) and Panyu (orange) (which is an OPM centered around OTL Guangzhou) in the south, all of which are run by whoever lived in the region before OTL Han Dynasty.
-Serica (light blue in Sichuan), the remnant Hellenic Chinese state, which I'd imagine to have had a kind-of similar downfall to OTL Byzantium.
-Tibet is united though probably much closer culturally to India than to China. Xinjiang has the Tarim basin city-states (Hotan, Kashgar, Kucha, Qargan, Turfan)
-The Magyars are in the north, I'm not unsure if they'll be a united blob or several smaller countries at the start
-The Shogunate is that dark-brown country in northern China (which will, again, get many more provinces in AoW) I personally would like to see about 3-4 provinces around Chang'an broken off into some other country. but if that's not wanted its fine.