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[GS] GS impressions/random observations thread.

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by iammaxhailme, Feb 14, 2019.

  1. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Sounds like a mod you had on. I've never seen a turn count down figure. just how much earned vs how much needed.
     
  2. SaiH

    SaiH Warlord

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    I don't know if it has been already mentioned before but I like that they resized some unit models. Ironclad and Missile Cruiser look really better now.
     
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  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    This explains GP costs for R&F, probably not changed. The Mechanism of Great People
     
  4. Greasy Dave

    Greasy Dave Prince

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    thanks I checked it out. It's weird, I've been seeing extremely different costs to the ones he quotes.

    Can't remember the name of the GS but it was a rennaissance one and he cost 1245...maybe I have some odd legacy stuff lingering in the game from mods that have been turned off. i guess I need to verify my game files.

    Thanks for the link anyhow.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  5. Mojo85

    Mojo85 Warlord

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    Has anyone won a diplo victory and if so about how many turns did it take?
     
  6. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz King

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    The AI seems to stop selling diplo favor not only when you're winning but when you have too much diplo favor. They stopped selling me in early game, long before I got my first point. The AI also seem to vote against only when you're close to win, so I did it like this in my game:

    1 point from the Statue of Liberty;
    1 from the only Aid I got the whole game;
    2 from First vote. I voted enough to win if the AI with more favors decided to invest all on the diplo victory vote, no more than that since the AI is trying to win by that point, not stop me from winning;

    By then I was about to get the point from the tech/civic tree but I delayed unlocking it into the next vote, so I wouldn't trigger the AI to try and stop my win. I want to pay as little as possible in the next vote, so:

    2 from Second vote. Again, vote only enough to have more than the AI with more favors;
    2 from Tech/Civic tree, which leave me with 8, so officially winning;
    2 from Last vote, all in, I have around 6000+ favors and going up quite fast and it seems possible that I still might lose the vote if every AI also go all in (there's 10 AIs left).


    I'm around turn 280, the last vote, if I win it, will be in 23 turns.
     
    Eagle Pursuit likes this.
  7. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Is it that diplo is too slow, or others are too fast?
     
  8. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz King

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    Both.

    The problem with the length of Diplo victory isn't the length itself, it's the fact you can't do anything about it, aside from making sure you don't lose a vote/aid and build the Statue of Liberty. Science goes faster the more science you have, then later you produce projects faster the better is your production. Culture goes faster the more tourism you have. Religious goes faster the more faith you have and depending on how efficiently you use your apostles. Domination goes faster if you attack multiple fronts and do it efficiently. Diplomacy it doesn't matter how much Diplo Favors you pile up, how much envoys you send, how much allies you have or the level of your alliances, you can't speed it up. It takes the time it takes and there's nothing you can do about it, doesn't matter how well you're doing. Being efficient doesn't translate into winning faster, so diplomacy is the odd duck of Civ VI victories.
     
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  9. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Approaching the close of my first game, so some more detailed thoughts on each area of the expansion:

    Climate change and disasters

    I agree with others that climate change is weirdly low-impact, but at the same time it accelerates too fast once it starts simply because it hits level 7 with plenty of game time left. It seems it really ought to continue beyond the first three levels of sea level rise. It should also have some effect on inland areas so that you can't just ignore it as an inland civ - if the engine can't be used to change, say, plains into desert or grassland into plains, at the very least increased levels of climate change should cause permanent reductions in fertility and perhaps reduce the housing provided by fresh water. Gamewise it has a minimal impact on strategy, but I suspect I may notice it more with more than two coastal cities.

    Disasters are fun and I set them to level 3, which seems about the right intensity. Once again they don't really do anything most of the time, but they can lead to interesting stories when, for instance, France was hammered repeatedly by them throughout my game, including one particular turn where they suffered both a major storm and a megacolossal volcanic eruption. I have no volcanoes near me - as far as I encountered, droughts are the most impactful disaster. Floods don't seem to do enough damage to be worth the dams, especially as it can be hard to predict where to site them (I placed one near Washington, but never got any notifications that it prevented floods afterwards - however the section of the same river around Baltimore flooded repeatedly).

    Tying them to diplomatic victory with the aid emergency is a nice idea, but seems exploitable by setting intensity at a high level since the AI can't compete for the victory point if you actively want it. I don't think this is a fault with AI coding, the human player is just likely to have better gold output than the AI most of the time and this is the way to win this emergency. I'm not sure whether the AI is able to actually give gifts or if it's hardwired to use the send aid project, which is rather pointless unless you're short of gold or there are multiple simultaneous gold emergencies.

    Jersey system

    A picture tells a thousand words:



    The crossbowmen are Roman but can hardly be told apart from the Mapuche - and the Khmer units look closer to those of these two civs than the city banner does. That's right, the system changed Rome - in a game with no other purple civs - to a colour scheme that was likely to cause confusion with another in the game.

    World Congress

    I'm liking this more than I expected even if the decisions are mostly make-work. The AI seems to make broadly sensible decisions, however it's naturally hampered by the way the system works since each AI will vote for itself and no one will ever combine votes a la Civ IV - so whoever has the most diplomatic favour and willingness to use it will always win. There are only a few resolutions that will usually be relevant (I got a lot of use out of culture bombing with Border Control) so it's easy for the player to pick the one that they need and push it through. Again no AI fault here but a system that is actively hostile to the AI - the AIs make individually mostly sensible decisions, but there are too many possible options to choose that it's very rare for more than one to vote for the same thing.

    The scored competitions are mostly free stuff for the human player, as yet again they key off things the AI can't do. The World Games in particular demands either a project the AI doesn't seem to go for or a district it doesn't build. Sweden is in my game so my impression of the Congress is also coloured by the Nobel Prizes - which are more interesting, albeit with more powerful and less balanced rewards than the main Congress. I think the Congress system may feel a bit thin without Sweden in the game. As for Sweden itself, it showed no ability in my game to contest these - maybe America's bonus favour is just especially powerful, though (I suspect it is - diplo favour is rarely going to reach 20 a turn and America gets a +1-3 bonus every turn for most of the game).

    Linking emergencies to the Congress is perhaps my favourite feature of the expansion, if only because it takes a random feature from Rise and Fall that was, on balance, detrimental to the game and puts it into a meaningful context. The downside is that all the downsides of 'military emergencies' remain - the AI can't achieve them - although this is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the AI can vote them down. In my games, not many have actually been passed.

    Diplomacy

    I haven't got much of a handle on what the grievance system really does, as I've been able to avoid earning grievances - the major impact of this is that I've been able to become friendly very soon after meeting with most civs, which paid off down the line as I have been able to maintain 5 alliances (and so +5 diplo favour). Yet again the AI seems to be hampered, and yet again it seems to be hampered while playing other aspects of the game reasonably well - though it needs to lay off the city state aggression. Grievances seem to result in more regular wars between AIs and in somewhat consistent rivalries with at least the player (the Zulu and Khmer have hated me throughout), which will naturally hamper the AI's diplomatic game in the Congress.

    The AI seems more prone than it used to be for asking for bizarre deals - in my game it has an obsession with asking for my assorted Great Works, usually for luxes and small amounts of gold. Until you're closing on victory it doesn't care about hoarding favour and I could have exploited this more than I have. It also seems to overvalue strategic resources.

    Strategic resources

    I have so far found that this change has almost no game effect. In the early game it works basically the same as before - any source of iron or horses is sufficient for your needs, and if you have none you can trade for it. The consumables are more interesting, but are only relevant late. You can rarely usefully trade for these unless you want to trade something every few turns, so it becomes important to find sources of oil or aluminium especially. In my game I ran out of coal, and it's a good way to make multiple sources of a strategic resource relevant - now to find a way to do the same with luxuries other than an occasional Congress resolution.

    Pretty much the typical story of the expansion as a whole here: an improvement to the existing game but nothing very substantial.

    Late game and future era

    I loved seeing the sheer diversity of improvements and districts on the stream. I've yet to get to the future era myself and haven't so far needed whatever it offers, but as to the late game the world seems to become quickly carpeted in solar farms and offshore improvements - wind farms and seahabs mostly. I don't optimise my play enough to have noticed a substantial difference in the way cities work with or without power, and mostly - once again - I see a flavourful change with little real gameplay impact. For instance I haven't changed my strategy substantially relative to Rise and Fall - because of the way my specific early game played out I had to adapt more on the fly early than I have previously in Civ VI, but I don't think this is a Gathering Storm thing and my progress since has followed my usual play pattern.

    If the Aztecs in my game are any indication, GDRs come online too soon and in too high a quantity, even if they mostly spend their time stomping around not doing much. In Civ V these came very late and the AI might build two at most.

    Governors

    These have been changed enough to be essentially new with GS, and I still don't much like the system. With the rebalanced trees, I no longer want to go wide with governors at all - instead I want to prioritise promoting Pingala as much as possible and then doing the same with Reyna. Liang and Magnus, who have good first abilities but still have poor promotion trees, now look much less attractive and I still have no reason to ever want the others except Amani, who is situational and still useful mostly for her first two abilities. The balance is different from before but no better, and the gameplay that results likely more stereotyped. Pingala's huge early yield boost is an overpowered 'fix' to an already good governor.

    Rock Bands

    They have names like Buffalo Buffalo, a fun animation and amusing outcomes - so what's not to like? Mostly the fact that they make the culture victory progress impossible to track in any way other than looking at the culture victory screen, since once they come online all that careful hoarding of artists/writers, efforts to theme museums, beelining Computers, and focus on Wonders goes out the window and culture victory comes down pretty much entirely to pushing faith output and getting good rock band rolls. While every other aspect of the expansion adds flavour with little to no real effect on gameplay, rock bands upend an entire victory condition and make most other forms of tourism or non-faith based routes to culture victory largely irrelevant. Mechanically they're the worst feature of the expansion despite being so much fun.

    AI Behaviour

    In general I've been positive about the AI here, and with good reason. It does get punished by many of the new systems, but more because those systems are in tension with allowing the AI to play well in other areas than because the AI simply can't use them (unlike loyalty in R&F, aircraft anywhere, etc.). Of the new additions it evidently doesn't use diplomatic favour well, as while it can make sensible voting decisions it seems largely random whether or not it will invest enough favour in them and it can put too much into what appear to me to be low-value options.

    Things that have impressed me:

    - Loyalty management. I saw no forward settling, little aggressive capturing of cities too far to hold onto, and no AI suffered any loyalty problems at all until the late game - when for some reason the Aztecs and Mongolia in particular suddenly started having loyalty issues with their border cities. My cunning plan to beat New York into submission with culture pressure once I'd taken the surrounding cities was thwarted. The Khmer kept a governor in there during their Dark Age and seemed to have positive amenities most of the time - had I been quicker to take all the surrounding cities and remove the governor I may have caused it to flip, but it would have taken a lot of effort, and that's when they were in a Dark Age, I was in a Golden Age, and I was using Amani to exert negative loyalty pressure on them.

    I'm looking to have more success with Nazca using a similar strategy, but again the French have made sure to install a governor there while its loyalty is low.

    The AI does seem worse at hitting golden ages than it used to be, though.

    - Strategic wars. Maybe to play well (or at least better) with the grievance system, the AI's behaviour seems to have been changed to ensure it declares wars much more sensibly. It only seems to declare war when it has a specific target in mind, and will make peace once it's achieved that objective or failed to do so. After the Khmer invaded captured New York, although they hated me for the rest of the game and repelled my efforts to get it back (aided by their higher tech level), they never exhibited any other aggression or tried to move on my other cities with their superior army. Shaka moaned a lot but I had few problems with him after Washington was out of reach (since I'd captured Zulu cities between it and the rest of Zulu territory). France declared peace after a failed attack on Baltimore and became lifeloing friends afterwards - I then saw similar behaviour when they attacked and failed to capture New York, and declared peace with the Khmer before taking many casualties. Mostly AIs war against neighbouring civs, and where they go to war with civs they can't reach it seems to be the result of alliances. AIs tend to bring quite a lot of forces in preparation for major wars, rather than just four units as used to be the case.

    - Improvements. The AI improves its territory much better - it may also make better settlement decisions as I've seen some excellent AI city spots, though I've also seen bad ones (including the Zulu bypassing the best spot on an island, complete with both aluminium and a natural wonder, and settling an an apparently empty area next to tundra). The AI now seems to recognise Natural Wonders as valuable city spots - I've seen multiple AI cities encompassing them and the sole French attack I faced was against a city with Sahara El Beyda.

    Things that have not impressed me:

    - The AI seems slower than ever to go for victory. In my game in 1900 no one is closer than a sixth of the way to culture victory (hamstrung possibly by an obsession with Great Works and artifacts that are no longer of much relevance), and the Aztecs and Mapuche have been sitting on a commanding science lead for well over 100 turns without progressing past the Moon Landing.

    - This:



    Also, lots of Mapuche (or possibly Roman or Khmer - it's impossible to tell) medics.

    - AI air behaviour is unchanged despite promises. I've seen one full Mapuche aerodrome with 4 planes - 3 fighters and a bomber - none of which were ever deployed. I've seen a single fighter on patrol in the entire game. There's no indication that the AI makes any better use of aircraft (i.e. some) than it ever has. I'm seeing fewer infantry and other units that require strategic resources, but lots of anti-tank, which may reflect the AI's inability to navigate the new strategic resource system.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
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  10. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Well I can see that. It's an odd kind of thing to try to work into the game. In real life other civs wouldn't mind giving you the votes because by definition they like you. And in RL there's more than a session of congress every 50 years (or whatever based on game speed).
     
  11. L4Psha

    L4Psha Warlord

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    It really is! Now it's bigger and even a little bit more detailed.
     
  12. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I haven't played with culture yet but it sounds like you have a good point about Rock Bands. It's not good if they render everything you have during the entire course of the game moot.
     
  13. Breadsmith

    Breadsmith Chieftain

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    In my current game, Australia is Green/Gold. Zulu is bright Green/Yellow, and Brazil is Blue/Green.

    And Peter likes me enough to declare friendship and enter a Military Alliance, despite taking his capital in the Classical Era.
     
  14. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    It seems like part of the diplo victory taking so long and being overrun by other Victories is that a lot of civs with Diplo tendencies also have cultural tendencies.

    It might be interesting to see if it's easier to get a diplo victory without accidentally getting a cultural victory with Hungary, Georgia, or Greece (build Acropoli but not additional buildings). America might also be good for this test because the Film Studio is easy to ignore.
     
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  15. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Also, especially on smaller maps, the AI is quite good at winning a religious victory. I played a game as America hoping to try a diplomatic victory but lost the game to AI Georgia winning a religious victory before I even got 1 diplomatic victory point.
     
  16. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz King

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    As Sweden I'm making every cultural building and wonders, mostly for the great people but I don't use the great people that give great works or tourism. I have so much great people in my territory, you might mistake me for the AI. Greece I would do the same, build everything to get fast to the end of the cultural tree, to get extra sources of diplo favors but "unpack" only enough great works to give me some culture. I also adopted the late game government that have a -10% tourism penalty, which isn't a penalty if I'm trying to reduce my tourism. It also give 30% production to projects, perfect to convert CO2 into favors.
     
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  17. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    6 GDRs for the Aztec? Wow! That's a lot of Uranium.
     
  18. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    If I were to redo my Sweden game with more Diplomatic focus, I would also avoid building OA Museums. Or at least bulldoze them if I got too close to the CV.
     
  19. Kibikus

    Kibikus Warlord

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    In my game as Mali I won a Diplo victory on Turn 292. Standard speed and size, Deity. The last 50 or so turns I was building stuff just because I wanted to develop my cities, there wasn't really a need to do much, other than go to next turn.

    The problem is, as others have said, that Diplo victory is the only one that you can't push for only by yourself, you are dependent on when the World Congress comes by. By my estimation you'll usually need a minimum of 3 Congresses with Diplo VPs (6 points in total) in order to reach the 10 (unless you get really lucky with a bunch of aid emergencies and you have crazy science and culture to get the points in the tech/civic tree, plus SoL). And if the AIs manage to vote to remove a point from you, it may take 4 or 5 WCs.

    They probably need to accelerate the pace of WCs towards the end of the game, just like in Civ V, or make the Diplo VP start earlier than the Modern era, or something like that.
     
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  20. DWilson

    DWilson Where am I? What turn is it?

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    People already win too quickly, and we get a lot of complaints about not getting to the end game or the end game not mattering. I think it would be better to buff culture and stretch out the culture victory rather than to squeeze the diplomatic victory much.
     
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