Guess the New Civs

[truenarnian]

Are all street signs in both languages? Can you walk down the aisle at the grocery market and see the required bilingual names of the various foods? French is very much a part of everyday life in Canada, not just Quebec and New Brunswick. Anyways, this is off track for the thread, other than to say that no, Canada wouldn't be considered 2 nations, despite the animosity between the west and Quebec.

Ummm...I live in BC. Good luck finding French anywhere except the packaging on your cereal box. I would bet Maori is more relevant to New Zealand than French is to British Columbia.

 

[Optical]

I would agree with that. Maori culture is definitely very relevant in New Zealand. However, that doesn't mean we aren't very much one nation and one people.

I doubt Canada would be in in any form anyway; the only reason a nation even as modern as America is in (IMO) is that the game was developed in America, mainly for an American market. Modern nations are great in mods and such, but that's not what the base game is designed for.

 

[shaglio]

Development and testing of civilizations is the most difficult and time consuming parts of the game. Not only do they need to create the artwork, compose the music, and record the voice actors of, ideally, a native speaker, they have to design the civ's traits and playtest them for balance. By contrast, they can call a new city-state "City-State X" until the very end of the game if they are uncertain if a new civ is yet to be added.

Well, I tried to give the Pro-Portugal fanbase a little bit of hope, but I see what you're saying. I know next to nothing about developing video games, so I was pretty much in over my head to begin with. I just thought it could be a case of "one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing" and that whoever decided to hypothetically add Portugal as a new civ didn't know that the decision was made to add Lisbon as a CS (or vice versa).

 

[AbsintheRed]

Well, I tried to give the Pro-Portugal fanbase a little bit of hope, but I see what you're saying.

I don't think this is an issue
The most popular remaining civilizations (by remaining I mean that they already appeared in previous civ games) - such as Portugal, Zulu, Sumer and probably the Sioux and the Hittite as well - will definitely be released in some form, even if they don't make it into this expansion pack

 

[j51]

Dont complain about capitalism.

 

[Swerv]

I'd hate to burst a lot of bubbles, but the Moors are not a civilization. They aren't even a distinct people. "Moor" is a term that medieval Europeans used to describe the Muslim Arabs, Berbers, and West Africans of Al-Andalus (the term given to Iberia by it's Arab/Muslim conquerors in 711CE). You could argue that later Berber dynasties such as the Almoravids or the Almohads were culturally and ethnically distinct, and this is who you are referring to when you say "Moors," but you'd be wrong.

Moderator Action: Removed this part because some of it was trolling as it is your judgement on this group of people.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

The modern State of Israel is not to be confused with the Kingdom of Israel, a united monarchy that may or may not have existed in the southern Levant for a period of less than 100 years, some 3,000 years ago. As far as I know, the only evidence to support the existence of such a kingdom is found in the Hebrew Bible. I suppose you could make a case for the Kingdom of Israel being included as a playable Civ, but it will never happen. It's capital would have to be Jerusalem, which would be highly controversial, since present day East Jerusalem (i.e., Jerusalem proper) was illegally annexed by the modern State of Israel. It is internationally recognized as occupied Palestinian territory.

 

[turingmachine]

...The modern State of Israel is not to be confused with the Kingdom of Israel...

Yeah, there's a distinction between the adjectives Israeli and Israelite. Many people on the boards are asking for an Israeli civ, then include in that discussion ancient Israel. Israeli specifically refers to the modern state. Israelite, on the other hand, although it can be used as a general all-inclusive term, Israelite when used in this context specifically refers to ancient Israel.

I'm not against an Israelite civ, although I think it's unlikely for the reasons you mentioned among others, but I don't really feel and Israeli civ should be added at all.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Edit: @ Swerv

I fail to see how that makes Isreal ineligible to be a civ. So they do some nasty things to people living within their bounds. Many, if not all the civs in the game have been guilty of countless crimes against a myriad of victims. Our fine shining example of enlightenment, the USA, cleansed the frontiers of inconvenient Native Americans and had Africans systematically imported and enslaved for half of its duration on the planet.

None of your reasons speak to why Isreal shouldn't be included. A reason should be something to the effect of: a lack of cohesive culture, lack of regional/global influence, or a lack of long-term impact. The last one is the only one that might apply. Modern Isreal has only been in place for 3 generations. The jury is still out on how long they will really last.

 

[Gucumatz]

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting!

Yes as a civ the Chachapoya were EXTREMELY important for centuries controlling the majority of trade in the region. Their cities were large (like Maya City State large), were important militarily (fighting the Inca for hundreds of years/along with trade, the Huari, Spanish, etc.). A lot of the mountain fort styles from the Inca are believed/theorized to have been borrowed from the Chachapoya.

The only reason the Chachapoya are so unknown despite former accomplishments, former influence, population, religious center (bodies from all over the Andean region were carried to Kuelap to be buried), architecture, etc... is because their sites were almost never excavated.

Only recently has real excavation been happening on the Chachapoyan sites. The sites are also far more remote than any Incan site limiting excavation. The writings about the Chachapoya from the Spanish were often times gotten from Incan sources and focused primarily on their wars and final destruction. They have also never been popularized in public (except via a rolling boulder in Indiana Jones).

====

Hopefully with the new wave of excavation of some of these Chachapoyan sites, the "People of the Clouds" will become better known to the public.

 

[CivilizedPlayer]

I'd hate to burst a lot of bubbles, but the Moors are not a civilization. They aren't even a distinct people. "Moor" is a term that medieval Europeans used to describe the Muslim Arabs, Berbers, and West Africans of Al-Andalus (the term given to Iberia by it's Arab/Muslim conquerors in 711CE). You could argue that later Berber dynasties such as the Almoravids or the Almohads were culturally and ethnically distinct, and this is who you are referring to when you say "Moors," but you'd be wrong.
in t

Moderator Action: Removed this part above.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

The modern State of Israel is not to be confused with the Kingdom of Israel, a united monarchy that may or may not have existed in the southern Levant for a period of less than 100 years, some 3,000 years ago. As far as I know, the only evidence to support the existence of such a kingdom is found in the Hebrew Bible. I suppose you could make a case for the Kingdom of Israel being included as a playable Civ, but it will never happen. It's capital would have to be Jerusalem, which would be highly controversial, since present day East Jerusalem (i.e., Jerusalem proper) was illegally annexed by the modern State of Israel. It is internationally recognized as occupied Palestinian territory.

Swerve: Every last word of what you said (about the Moors and Israel) I was about to type. It makes me happy to know that there are people in the world that know about the situation in Israel.
More on topic: Eagle Pursuit...

I fail to see how that makes Isreal ineligible to be a civ.

Yes he does. They are not a civilization. They are a modern state that has achieved nothing positive of note. Ignoring all the controversy, the simple fact is that their is no reason to include them. What have they done? What have they accomplished? You say that they should be included on the grounds that the US does bad stuff too, but look at the Washington Monument, the Capitol Building, the militaristic victories, the booming economy... They've done something, even if you don't like them very much.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

I understand your points, but a Israel civilization could serve to represent the Kingdom of Judea and etc. as well.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

Ok well I can do that quick here are some images:

Possible Buildings/Improvements:

http://www.fertur-travel.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/revash3-300x225.jpg

A picture of a Chullpa: (A Cliffside Mausoleum). Very important and distinct, mumification appears at its earliest in the Andes in these Mausoleums. They tended to be built on the edges of cliffaces/rugged terrain and are extremely hard to reach.

The Chachapoyan burial places are quite exquisite.

Here is a picture of Chachapoyan Sarcophagi which show both their Amazonian and Andean roots:

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/latinam/chachapoya1.jpg

====================================

The Chachapoya were also famous for their forts/city construction. Their forts allowed them to fight against both northern invaders and the Inca for centuries. Their round forts can be seen easily via a google search, but here are some links/pics too.

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/3468476-Kuelap-Chachapoyas.jpg

http://images.travelpod.com/users/k...tist-rendering-of-what-kuelap-looked-like.jpg

Now Chachapoyan unique units will/would be harder to implement. They however were famous for their maces and slingers. (Their slingers were more feared than Incan Slingers ever were) The problem is slingers are already in game.

That leaves us forced to use something with their maces.

I can't give you any great pictures for a Chachapoyan Mace Warrior (Or give you a better name really) but here are some pictures from a couple of documentaries:

http://www.natgeoprogramming.com/images/categoryimages/file/inflightimp-1909.jpg

http://tabulorasa.info/uploads/posts/2011-02/1298189748_e64a1601-7cd2-458a-ab99-082672503ec8.jpg

==========

And here is a picture that could be used for the Chachapoyan Standard/flag/Symbol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Abisco_or_Pajaten.jpg

===========

Some pictures that could help I hope if you did want to make a mod of them in the future.

============

Some possible cities could include but are not limited to:

Kuelap, Revash, Huancas, Purun Llacta, Yalape, Olan, Leymebamba, Chilchos, Gran Vilaya, Condors Lagoon, Congona, Jalca Grande, Macro, Yamon, Rentama, Iyacyecuj, Meseta, Chachapoyas, and not all cities are listed here (While I know some about their culture, I am still by no means an expert).

The leader would be limited to one of their latter leaders before their end at the hands of both Incan revenge/Smallpox/Spanish conquest; Blas Valera.

Excellent!

Do you have any images of their leader that could be used as a static image for the diplomatic screen? I tried searching for "Blas Valera", but didn't find any interesting images. Here are some examples of static diplomatic images used for other civilizations:

 

[fat_tonle]

Wow.... talk about hating on Israel. Although I agree with the validity of those points brought up. Then again, if you reside in the Newt Gingrich school of history, I guess the Palestinian peoples is a bit of a grey area as well...

I just hope we get to see some good old fashion crusades. I remember that random event triggering where I had to capture a Holy City in Civ IV to get some big bonus. If the AI controlling that Holy City didn't have a million guys in such a narrow choke, I probably would have went in for the hell of it, just to rekindle that event in history. I am sure the "Faith" CS missions will have something like that.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

More on topic: Eagle Pursuit...

Yes he does. They are not a civilization. They are a modern state that has achieved nothing positive of note. Ignoring all the controversy, the simple fact is that their is no reason to include them. What have they done? What have they accomplished? You say that they should be included on the grounds that the US does bad stuff too, but look at the Washington Monument, the Capitol Building, the militaristic victories, the booming economy... They've done something, even if you don't like them very much.

I think you misunderstand me.

I'm not endorsing Isreal. I just think that they should not be excluded based on "evil" things they've done. A great deal of civs have skeletons in their closet and they are included in the game. it's not a big deal (in respect to their inclusion).

I'm not hating on any nation. In fact, I have a rather pragmatic view on what it takes to make a mighty empire. "It sucks to be a slave, but someone has to build my pyramids." "I know this has been your home for centuries, but I need to mine iron here, GTFO." That's humanity for you. We are tribal and prone to warfare.

Include or exclude a civ based on these criteria:
cohesive culture
historic or current regional/global influence (military/economic/cultural etc)
longevity
familiarity/popularity to Civilization's player demographic

don't include or exclude a civ based on this:
controversy
subjective morality

 

[CivilizedPlayer]

Yes, but my point has not been answered with regards to Israel:
What have they done?
I'm not going to judge their morals or behavior (I love that the Aztecs are in the game, and they ripped peoples beating hearts out of their chests). It's just that they haven't done anything other than a few militaristic victories. And even their military is only in its current state due to the billions of dollars that they recieve annually in aid from the US.
And Androrc:

I understand your points, but a Israel civilization could serve to represent the Kingdom of Judea and etc. as well.

The Israelite kingdom has little to nothing in common with the state of Israel currently. What you're suggesting is to put that plot of land in the game, and just incorporate all the people that so happened to live there. (Or I guess just incorporate the kingdom, ignore what happened for the next several thousand years, then pick up in 1948).
And to use Eagle Pursuit's criteria:
They have no longevity, as they have only been around for 70ish years.
They have a current regional influence in that the Arab nations don't like them, but that's not exactly a great accomplishment. Outside of the Middle East, I guess they have a pretty strong lobbying group in the US, but again, that's hardly something that demonstrates greatness.
They have no cohesive culture (European Jews, Sumerians, Muslims, Christians, and more; and none of them get along).
They have no familiarity or popularity to a Civ demographic. They've never been included before, and to my knowledge their is no serious number of Civilization-ers in Israel.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

The Israelite kingdom has little to nothing in common with the state of Israel currently. What you're suggesting is to put that plot of land in the game, and just incorporate all the people that so happened to live there. (Or I guess just incorporate the kingdom, ignore what happened for the next several thousand years, then pick up in 1948).

The latter is exactly my suggestion. Saying that there is "little to nothing" in common between the two is false: they have the same state religion, both have Hebrew as the official language, etc.

The modern state of Israel clearly in many ways continues the ancient kingdom; it was formed by the people from that kingdom who had a diaspora, after all, and kept having a distinct culture despite having migrated to other countries.

 

[Swerv]

I fail to see how that makes Isreal ineligible to be a civ. So they do some nasty things to people living within their bounds. Many, if not all the civs in the game have been guilty of countless crimes against a myriad of victims. Our fine shining example of enlightenment, the USA, cleansed the frontiers of inconvenient Native Americans and had Africans systematically imported and enslaved for half of its duration on the planet.

None of your reasons speak to why Isreal shouldn't be included. A reason should be something to the effect of: a lack of cohesive culture, lack of regional/global influence, or a lack of long-term impact. The last one is the only one that might apply. Modern Isreal has only been in place for 3 generations. The jury is still out on how long they will really last.

You make a valid point; all or most civs in the game, and indeed all modern nation-states were founded with a lot of violence and bloodshed, and were likely built on slave labor. However, I did not intend to make my comment a critique of nationalism or the current global system. And while the USA is similarly a modern state founded on war and mass expulsion, there can be no question about the might of its empire or the global reach of its culture. To not include the Americans in a game of empire and global domination would be a striking omission. Israel is not an empire. And, in my opinion, it is nothing more than a client of the United States.

I am a bit puzzled by the rest of your post. I probably should've been more clear, but what I was trying to say is that Israel was founded relatively recently by Ashkenazi (European Jewish) colonists from Poland, Germany, Hungary, Ukraine, Russia, etc. In fact, the Mizrahi Jews who emigrated to Israel from parts of the Middle East and North Africa have much more in common, culturally-speaking, with the native Arab population than they do with their Ashkenazi Jewish counterparts. More recently, Israel has allowed (and even subsidized) an influx of Ethiopian Jewish, as well as Russian (Jewish and non-Jewish) immigrants to offset the growing Arab population. So no, there is no cohesive culture to speak of.

Israel certainly has had a regional/global impact in its brief history, and it has been a very negative one, launching countless wars and setting off a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. The only reason I can think that people would want such a new (arguably self-destructive) state included in a game alongside historic civilizations and once-great empires is that they might be proud of it. Well, I am here to remind you that Israel is nothing to be proud of, yet.

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[turingmachine]

The latter is exactly my suggestion. Saying that there is "little to nothing" in common between the two is false: they have the same state religion, both have Hebrew as the official language, etc.

The modern state of Israel clearly in many ways continues the ancient kingdom; it was formed by the people from that kingdom who had a diaspora, after all, and kept having a distinct culture despite having migrated to other countries.

Except it doesn't.

It's one thing to say there exists a continuation of Judaism between the two, but modern Rabbinic Judaism, not to mention various Orthodox and mystical variations like Hasidism and Kabbalah, are so vastly different from the Temple Judaism that would have been practiced in the Kingdom of Israel that if you put the two side by side they'd be practically unrecognizable as the same religion.

This is also true in regards to the Hebrew Language, as Classical Hebrew was significantly modified in the middle ages due to the the incorporation of Arabic grammar forms and then later with the modern Hebrew revival with the influence of Ladino, Yiddish, and a ton of distinct languages.

Even the continuity of the culture is questionable, due to the huge influence of the Arab world on the Sephardic diaspora, and the European-German influence on the Ashkenazi diaspora, among others.

The continuity that does exist is the concept of the identity of "Jewish". A cultural identity, no matter how unique and interesting, is not a civilization unto itself. The Jewish cultural identity forms a part of the identity, history, and uniqueness of a lot of different civilizations. Modern Israel is a reconstruction of this identity not a continuity from an old one.

 

[evanschrader]

I think that an unlikely but very interesting possibility is the Taino civilization of the Caribbean, since there have never been a civ from the Caribbean

 

[evanschrader]

Possibilities:
North America/Apache or (wild card) Canada
Central America/Caribbean/Taino?
South America/I like the idea of Chachapoya and or Brazil
Europe: Hun, Poland, Austria, hopefully Scotland w/ william wallace and highlanders
Africa: Moors, Zulu, Ethiopia/Kongo
Middle East: Israel/Hebrews
Asia: Tibet or indonesia

Top 4:
1.poland w/ medival scenario
2.israel w/ religion feature
3.hun w/ fall of rome
4. African civ or se asia