Hall of Fame Rules/FAQ

[brennan]

Who cares? Science is now obsolete. Libraries and Unis go the way of Temples and Collosseums. All you need is an AI with a tech and a lux and you can get your research done for free.

Are you saying that not having to put so much as a single scientist to work has hurt my score somehow? has damaged my ability to build workers, settlers and warriors? All it's done is give me a large bank balance to spend turning warriors to Swordsmen.

In this particular game i've devoted a lot of worker turns to building the trade routes yes, but only because I wanted to get the test done quickly. At higher levels you wouldn't need to be going and linking up the French Silks (this was only regent I think), you could just REX until you happened to get your first route, then position your warrior/worker stack and do the same. You could likely obtain the entire AA in a couple of turns and the only thing you'd have to do is get some warriors and workers to a particular point for a few turns.

Again: how is this hurting your score?

 

[EMan]

I'm saying, as with most advantageous tactics that people introduce, you haven't proven that you can overwhelm the HOF scores! (Viz. Proven that its a Game Breaker.)

For example, in my Small Chieftain Histographic HOF #1 Game, at 710BC I have 39 cities without using the Free Tech Strategy. You have 10 cities.

In your example, circa 700BC, you are talking about getting free AA Techs. At 1000 BC (12 turns earlier), I had ALL the AA Techs and 5 Middle Age Techs.

You have proved that you can get techs for free, which we already knew. Now, show us you can "Blow Away" the Top Scores/Fast Finishes with this strategy.

 

[brennan]

For example, in my Small Chieftain Histographic HOF #1 Game, at 710BC I have 39 cities without using the Free Tech Strategy. You have 10 cities.

In your example, circa 700BC, you are talking about getting free AA Techs. At 1000 BC, I had ALL the AA Techs and 5 Middle Age Techs.

This is all very nice, But in what way has this adversely affected my game?

Sounds like you got a terrific start: lots of Cows, probably using a SGL to build the Pyramids, multiple settler factories, Philosophy slingshot etc etc - not exactly fair to compare with an hour dedicated entirely to seeing if something is possible (I didn't even micromanage my 6 turn settler factory and let it slip to size 1). I'm on PTW and can't get a free Pyramids or the slingshot btw.

How much income could you have saved on that game if you had chosen to do no research whatsoever? And why is your example at Chieftain? I don't think this strategy is a game breaker on low levels, where it trivial to outpace the AI; indeed it would just slow you down; but on Deity and Sid being able to keep up in techs for zero cost has to be a serious consideration. Take your start and take it up to Deity with whatever bonus you get out of having done no research at all. Now obtain every single tech the AI has without it costing a single gold. How can this not be considered an exploit?

 

[EMan]

...How can this not be considered an exploit?

Simple. Because no one has proven that it is a Game Breaker, that's how.

 

[Chamnix]

The problem with that approach is that by then it is too late. The best way to prove it is a gamebreaker is to submit a game that blows away previous HoF scores. While it may be necessary on occasion, I don't think retroactively disallowing games is a good general policy.

(I am not saying I think this technique should be disallowed or allowed - I really just don't know ).

 

[EMan]

...The best way to prove it is a gamebreaker is to submit a game that blows away previous HoF scores....

Agreed 100%. Am hoping brennan or another bright anti-trade-route-breaker will do exactly that!

...While it may be necessary on occasion, I don't think retroactively disallowing games is a good general policy...

Exactemento! That's why it needs to be proved that this strategy is a Game Breaker.....First!

What's the Biggest downside risk?
If you want to be #1.......you have to employ this simple strategy?

Brennan and I agree on one thing: This strategy would probably be a lot more effective on higher levels. At higher levels, particularly Sid, you have some other more complex legal tactics to keep in mind if you want to place high on The HOF Lists.

 

[rysingsun]

it is a gamebreaker. i can use it on a sid pangea map all the way up through the modern age simply by snipping the 8 connections to my capital, and then continually rebuilding one road and cutting it, each time gaining a tech for free. i end the turn with the rails rebuilt.

the result is that on any sid game i can always keep up in tech while spending zero on science the whole game.

it will get me to republic quickly, allowing a faster expansion. it will get me to steampower (rails) more quickly, allowing higher population more quickly. it will get me to sanitation more quickly.

it is gamebreaking.

edit> you know ... emsworth certainly deserves some kind of award for skill in finding exploits

 

[EMan]

If that's the case, did Moonsinger, Kuningas & SirPleb, for examples, use this strategy in their high-scoring Sid games?........or perhaps a Great Library "Borrow", or Spoils-Of-War strategies to achieve the same effect?
(Hey, I need all the help I can get at Sid Level!!)

Okay, let's say you CAN get a lot of free techs: Do you think YOU can "Blow Away" Moonsinger's score, assuming she didn't use that or an "equivalent" strategy?

Incidentally, I would hate to see her games (or anyone else's) deleted from the HOF Lists!

...emsworth certainly deserves some kind of award for skill in finding exploits

........AND Publicizing them! What a Great Lord!

The question is: Did other players discover a "ploy", use it and keep quiet about it?

That's why I like No Rules (viz. "Firaxis Rules"). Don't Ask, Don't Tell then becomes the standard. (Viz. No such thing as a Dishonorable Discharge.)

 

[rysingsun]

The best way to prove it is a gamebreaker is to submit a game that blows away previous HoF scores.

This is not what concerns me most about so called "gamebreaker exploits". what bothers me is when the best strategy leads to what might be called a "degenerate game". This is a mathematical term which essentially means that one of the variables or dimensions is zerod out. The pertainent variable here is the entire science game. I mean it may be fun to pull this exploit once, but to have to play every competitive game using this strategy seems pretty broken to me even if it adds only slightly to my histograph score. And it will add more than "slightly" so we will all be forced to use it.

 

[superslug]

Simple. Because no one has proven that it is a Game Breaker, that's how.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[Marsden]

This is not what concerns me most about so called "gamebreaker exploits". what bothers me is when the best strategy leads to what might be called a "degenerate game". This is a mathematical term which essentially means that one of the variables or dimensions is zerod out. The pertainent variable here is the entire science game. I mean it may be fun to pull this exploit once, but to have to play every competitive game using this strategy seems pretty broken to me even if it adds only slightly to my histograph score. And it will add more than "slightly" so we will all be forced to use it.

I think this is a very nice and detailed point. In my lack of eloquence, I'd say it (the exploit) is just too cheezy.

 

[EMan]

(Another) 2 Cents worth:

1. Most of us agree this strategy is not needed at lower levels because the human is ahead of the Ai's on techs pretty quickly.

2. If it allows players to compete at a higher level by making the game easier, why not?

3. If the tactic is an obvious Game-Breaker, let's see an example. Talk is cheap.

4. OTTOMH, there are many tactics that some may call cheesy, i.e.

a. Ship chain
b. ROP Rape
c. MapFinder program
d. MapStat & Civ AssistII
e. Negative gpt (at Chieftain level)
f. Resource Denial
g. Unit Pop-Rush etc. etc.

AFAIK, these are all legal tactics in the HOF. In CFC's HOF, cheesy is okay!

Some say it makes for a degenerate game; others say it keeps the playing field level. (Viz. It's harder to cheat accidentally or deliberately.)

One Man's Trash is another Man's Treasure.

P.s. Nice to "see" you 'slug!........It seems like you've been away from Civ3 HOF for months, no?

 

[killercane]

(Another) 2 Cents worth:

1. Most of us agree this strategy is not needed at lower levels because the human is ahead of the Ai's on techs pretty quickly.

2. If it allows players to compete at a higher level by making the game easier, why not?

3. If the tactic is an obvious Game-Breaker, let's see an example. Talk is cheap.

4. OTTOMH, there are many tactics that some may call cheesy, i.e.

a. Ship chain
b. ROP Rape
c. MapFinder program
d. MapStat & Civ AssistII
e. Negative gpt (at Chieftain level)
f. Resource Denial
g. Unit Pop-Rush etc. etc.

AFAIK, these are all legal tactics in the HOF. In CFC's HOF, cheesy is okay!

Some say it makes for a degenerate game; others say it keeps the playing field level. (Viz. It's harder to cheat accidentally or deliberately.)

One Man's Trash is another Man's Treasure.

P.s. Nice to "see" you 'slug!........It seems like you've been away from Civ3 HOF for months, no?

I havent followed this whole discussion, but isnt Emsworth's original 100K game which is WAY ahead of any other game in that category definitive as "gamebreaker" proof?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Just to remind everybody of something from the Allowed section of the rules page:

GPT for Upfront (Civ/PtW/C3C)

Signing GPT for upfront compensation from the AI, and then using a declaration of war or disconnect of trade route to cancel the deal. Comes with a reputation hit in some cases, in others it is free.​

And that is in part the reason why I was actually only hoping for a quick 'yes.' Or, at least something quick.
----------------------------

(And anyway, whether or not something is a 'gamebreaker' or not is entirely besides the point I feel. There are other strong exploits and/or techniques which are clearly allowed. Extreme Goody Hut popping, the 'tech trick' at the age change, the GLib elevator (give away- recapture), remote palace, resource pillaging (to build cheaper, upgradeble units) etc pp. And what is more, I do not hear anybody complain that some of these 'techniques' have to be used to remain competitive. )

 

[EMan]

Sorry to distract just when the discussion is warming up....but what is this?

...Extreme Goody Hut popping...

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Sorry to distract just when the discussion is warming up....but what is this?

That is where your AA research almost entirely consists of navigating scouts over the map in order to pop techs from goody huts. Very simple. And very effective. With a little luck you are in Middle Ages before 2000 BC or even earlier.

 

[EMan]

Okay, errr thanks.......I thought that was "standard" practice, depending on your game conditions/objectives.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Yes, of course it is standard. But it also is gamebreaking, degenerate, cheezy and a 'must do.'

 

[superslug]

P.s. Nice to "see" you 'slug!........It seems like you've been away from Civ3 HOF for months, no?

Just dropping by. Haven't stopped in much since I stepped down last year.

 

[rysingsun]

how did goody-hut popping become extreme? if it were so extreme i might actually play expansionist once in a while. i'd call it "good" but not extreme.

edit> more on topic, if it could be considered on topic, i'm begining to think what we really need is a single slot in every high score catagory that has absolutely NO barred techniques at all. yes, that means we can even reload. we could steal from each other map seeds. we could expose the whole map by doing a false retire. i mean, heck, the game itself doesn't prohibit it. we can even boast in the forum how cheesy we were. we would be shameless. it would be interesting to see some of those scores.