[BTS] Hannibal Monarch game

[Tonny]

Hiya folks,

After I've been away too long from this game I decided to play a game for fun to get in the habit again.

Chose to play at a not too high level of a difficulty, therefor "only" Monarch.
I was given Hannibal of Carthage as a leader.

Hannibal is Financial/Charismatic and starts with Fishing and Mining.
I love Financial for the commerce boost and Charismatic is very good for growing cities large early on and you can whip an extra time in the early stages of the game. Extra whipping is nice for early warfare or faster peaceful expansion. Faster GG's could save/win the game for me. Extra happiness from Monuments are situational. I hardly build those in my games and I yet have to see me build a Stonehenge (better to capture the darn thing).
Starting techs are not that good in my opinion, but we'll see what starting area is given.

Spoiler settings :

Spoiler starting area :

Well, Fishing and Mining as starting techs are not bad here .

My opinion on this situation:
- move warrior NW and just SIP when nothing is revealed.
- tech BW and start on worker to chop those forests into WB's.

If you'd like to join me on a nice and easy game, I'm using the latest Buffy mod (3.19.005). I'm just used to play with this mod.

Spoiler :

I already played up to 1360BC (turn 66) and I can tell you...

Spoiler :

... nothing . Don't want to spoil the fun.

Save attached

 

[lymond]

Hey Ton! Settling on that marble looks awfully tempting

 

[sampsa]

I think spending 2T to settle on marble is guaranteed to be worth it.

 

[Tonny]

Glad that I started this thread .
Thank you @lymond and @sampsa for pointing out that settling on marble is good. (23 city centre!!!)
Definitely worth it!
A super fast workboat before worker is in play now.

My plan based on your suggestion is now:
WB - worker - WB (with chop) and worker can quickly mine the gold. At size 3 cap can start on a settler.
tech plan: BW first

 

[konata_LS]

Satan's voice : settle on gold ! <-- : Don't do that . Marble would be much better.

Gold + Clams suits well Hanni's starting techs . It seems to be a strong start.

 

[lymond]

I settled on the marble and went BW-Fish. Worker can build a green mine and start choppin” wbs. Not sure what is the better play
Ignored the gold for a long time…tile not worth it early based on other needs.

 

[krikav]

Hey @Tonny nice to have you around again!
I was going to write that you should settle on the marble, but some people beat me to it.

I'm awfully short on time right now and probably can't do a shadow for a few days, but it looks like a very nice start for Hannibals starting techs.
Ofcourse not certain at all, but gold available for early commerce and marble settlement and food tech already taken care of.. I'm getting an awful lot of checkmarks in my list for oracle viability.

 

[pigswill]

Settling on marble is the easy bit. Trickier part is deciding whether to build a worker or WB first.

Spoiler :

I'm reckoning worker first, working the clam BW and worker both appear T12. Chop WBs to get growth going then maybe think about gold mine

Spoiler :

Whizzed through very quickly up to 2200bc. Only one city, which does at least have first ring copper. Coast to south is an island, naff food but has horses. Another one tile island w clamz. You could consider Glight after another settler to block off some land and then play a thematic Glight/Cothon trade route economy with a Numidian rush against Pacal's Holkans. Very ALC

 

[Tonny]

I started to fiddle around and went several different ways how to play this position.

Spoiler different routes for comparison :

1. (the old game)
I settled in place.
Build order: worker (15) - wb (19) - wb (25) - wb (31) - warrior (32) - settler at size 4 working 3 clam and goldmine (42) - worker
Worker orders: chop - chop - chop - chop - mine gold (35) - road gold - roading towards cow (road on cow ready turn 43)
Tech order: BW (15) - Agri (23) - Wheel (29) - AH (36) - Pottery (39) - Writing (46) - Mysticism (48)
Utica founded on turn 43, Slavery switch on turn 42. (Monument Utica ready at turn 52)

2. (wb first)
settled Marble.
Build order: wb (9) - worker (18) - wb (22) - overflow into settler for 1 turn - warrior - settler at size 3 (36)
Worker orders: chop - mine gold (26) - road gold - roading towards cow (road on cow ready turn 34) - chop - cow (42)
Tech order: BW (16) - Wheel (23) - Agri (28) - AH (33) - Mysticism (36) - Pottery (41) - Writing
Utica founded on turn 37, Slavery switch on turn 36 (Monument Utica ready at turn 44)

3. (worker first)
settled Marble.
Build order: worker (12) - wb (17) - wb (21) - warrior (26) - warrior for 1 turn - settler at size 3 (35) - overflow into worker - back to warrior (39) - warrior (42) - back to worker at size 4
Worker orders: mine riverside grassland hill (16) - chop - mine gold (25) - chop - roading towards cow (road on cow ready turn 35) - cow (39) - chop
Tech order: BW (17) - Wheel (24) - Hunting (28) - AH (35) - Mysticism (40) - Pottery (44) - Writing
Utica founded on turn 36, Slavery switch on turn 35 (Monument Utica ready at turn 44)

Settling on marble is definitely worth it. It pays off very quickly!
Now it is time to see if mining gold this early is even worth it, what tech path is "optimal" and what the worker should do early on (e.g. roading towards 2nd city or sailing).
The presence of quite easily accessible early copper makes rushing...

Spoiler heavy spoiler :

only read when you've played up to writing and have ob with Pacal...

Spoiler :

what a wonderful cap!!!
Axes!!! to take him out!!!

 

[Izuul]

I'm pretty sure I would always build one WB first.

 

[lymond]

Great Tonny-like analysis!

yep...I...

Spoiler :

played a bit yesterday. I don't have numbers and I made a mistake in busting the copper spot with a panther showing up as I was just about to move my settler toward the spot...very annoying. Still got Mutal which is a very juicy spot.

I'd say the extra test here is ignoring the gold. I ignored it for quite some time to focus on growth and chopping. Get second worker quick and have the other one focus on copper spot. Gold is nice commerce but a bit of a hindrance on growth/production. With FIN working the two clams is going to provide some nice early commerce.

Pacal was teching like the blazes

 

[krikav]

I couldn't resist playing abit yesterday.

Spoiler T80 :

Workboat first, working a forested grassland for 5 turns first to get up to 20/30, then once borders pop a 1F2H tile two turns to finish the boat.

Went straight for a second workboat after that, have a 3H tile and 6H/tile is good enough for a second boat imho. Revolted when boat was in transit to whip out a worker.

Worker overflow went a new worker, and then the first worker finished his buddy with a chop.

I can certainly see merits in @lymond s idea to skipp gold, because I played very relaxed and was content on just teching away and commerce pulled ahead of production quite fast.
I built alot of buildings too and didn't start with axes until very late.

Saw Pacal had horses and thought there might be chariots so I brought spears too, but didn't see a single chariot.

The bastard placed his second city on a hill, so I had to do a ceasefire and wait for the second wave of axes to finish him off.
I went for axes late, but I don't really think it's worthwhile to rush things, Pacal took his sweet time to lay down some cottages

So lovely that after Pacal, there are two other AIs close by that are prime targets too, I don't think there would be any trouble rolling over both Gandhi and Lincoln with HAs with ease.

 

[Tonny]

You're putting me under pressure @krikav
I won't be able to play today (sulla's play off game today), but I'll try to post tomorrow.

 

[krikav]

I'm worried I won't even make it for Sullas game tonight. So much work right now.
Will have to keep away from the forums until I have time to watch the game to avoid spoilers too then.

But I still have hope I'll make it until 18!

 

[Fippy]

I guess this works well, Sailing after BW for some more food..now 2 pop whips can be done at size 5 while not losing gold

Spoiler :

Granary chop should sort regrowth out.
(not playing, just interesting with the start)

 

[Tonny]

Almost ready for an update. Currently at turn 78. Just 2 more turns to compare my game with @krikav .

Spoiler Teaser :

Captured 2 cities, GLH built and researched construction.

 

[Izuul]

This is pretty much an ideal start for the infamous Hannibal LB rush. Oracle Feudalism and go vroooooom.

 

[migalhone]

This is pretty much an ideal start for the infamous Hannibal LB rush. Oracle Feudalism and go vroooooom.

Longbow rush? What makes Hannibal great at it, comparing to other leaders? Cheaper CHA promotions and FIN better tech rate?

 

[Izuul]

Financial + Fishing + seafood start (gold as well here) are the primary economic factors for it here. Charismatic is obviously nice for warring because of the extra happiness and cheap promotions. Mining is a very good 2nd tech to pair with the seafood start.

A few other leaders could do it with a seafood start, but Hannibal is probably the best. Of course if you get one of those HOF starts with multiple gold or gems you could probably do it on a lot of leaders. You just need a lot of commerce to get to Monarchy while building the Oracle.

Also not sure you would get much mileage out of it beyond Immortal. It's very difficult to Oracle Feudalism on Deity even with great commerce. You eally just have to get lucky.

LBS are actually really fun to attack with though because they have no hard counter unit. You also get to run Vassalage immediately which isn't something you can say too often.

It's just fun, mostly.

 

[Tonny]

I would love to see you perform such a rush here @Izuul