Has Microsoft stumbled?

[aimeeandbeatles]

The question is "has Microsoft stumbled" not "Do Zelig or Aimee like Windows or not".

Actually, I dont like metro myself. But you're not being forced to use it in Windows 8 and a little program can fix the start menu issue. So I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[Archbob]

Actually, I dont like metro myself. But you're not being forced to use it in Windows 8 and a little program can fix the start menu issue. So I don't see what the big deal is.

The issue is that Metro UI is the default boot and I have to download a third party program to "fix" a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place. I'm on a desktop device, why boot into a UI thats geared towards tablets? Furthermore, why does MS not create a way to set it so you can automatically boot into desktop mode without having to see the Metro UI every time you start up?

Its a desktop device, the default UI should be the desktop UI, not one made for mobile devices.

You admitted that you can't show causation between sales and OS quality.

Just like you can't show direct causation of global warming to human activities because there are a lot of other factors involved. But there is a fairly strong positive correlation, especially in recent MS OS releases. Whether you want to admit or not, from MS's standpoint based on sales, revenue, and adoption, Win 8 is probably their biggest OS flop in the last 2 decades and most of the complaints are not with the OS functions itself but with the UI, which you can't set to autoboot to desktop for some strange and inexplanable reason.

 

[Zelig]

Its a desktop device, the default UI should be the desktop UI, not one made for mobile devices.

The start screen works the same as the start menu.

Just like you can't show direct causation of global warming to human activities because there are a lot of other factors involved. But there is a fairly strong positive correlation, especially in recent MS OS releases.

Yes, if PC sales decrease, it's basically impossible for sales of Windows not to decrease, hence the correlation.

 

[Archbob]

Yes, if PC sales decrease, it's basically impossible for sales of Windows not to decrease, hence the correlation.

Your trying to go around things because numbers don't support you. There's a positive correlation between adoption rates after launch and the eventual success of failure of a Windows OS. Right now Windows 8 is clearly failing, deny it all you want, it won't change the facts. PC sales decreasing by 15% does not equate to Windows 8 sales dropping 70% over Windows 7's. That makes no sense.

Win 7 Launched in 2009 and the economy was no better then than it is now so you can't blame the economy. Face it, Windows 8 isn't selling because people hate it, and the thing they hate most about it is the UI. Your constant denial of this isn't going to change the truth of is rancid adoption and being the worst selling and adoption Windows in 2 decades.

The start screen works the same as the start menu.

Except there's no start button, you can fit less icons on the screen, and it makes the interface look like a continous blob. Yes, aside from those things, its the same thing. The reaction to the tiles interface both during Beta-testing and sales and adoption rates has been extremely negative. That's the main reason this OS has tanked as bad as it has. It may surprise you but these so called "subjective things" are more important that your obsession with use cases for most Windows users.

 

[Zelig]

Your trying to go around things because numbers don't support you.

No, I'm pointing out that you can't show causation, and even if you could, it's not relevant.

people hate it

There's really no evidence of this.

Except there's no start button

If you click in the corner where the start button was, it brings up the start screen.

you can fit less icons on the screen

Addressed in 8.1

and it makes the interface look like a continous blob

Yes, we get it, you personally don't like the look.

Yes, aside from those things, its the same thing.

That's what I've been saying.

The reaction to the tiles interface both during Beta-testing and sales and adoption rates has been extremely negative.

No evidence of this, unless you by "extremely negative", you refer to simply a vocal minority.

 

[kiwitt]

For me the Windows 8 versus Windows 7 is a moot point for me. All I care about is what I need to run my applications. My applications (including games) and my ability to use my PC to access information and contacts are more important.

I am quite satisfied with Windows 7 as it runs all the desktop things I need. I also have a smartphone now for my mobile computing needs. While tablets are good, they can never replace multi-monitor hi-definition setup, I can use for movies, games and development.

 

[Tommy Vercetti]

Your trying to go around things because numbers don't support you. There's a positive correlation between adoption rates after launch and the eventual success of failure of a Windows OS. Right now Windows 8 is clearly failing, deny it all you want, it won't change the facts. PC sales decreasing by 15% does not equate to Windows 8 sales dropping 70% over Windows 7's. That makes no sense.

Win 7 Launched in 2009 and the economy was no better then than it is now so you can't blame the economy. Face it, Windows 8 isn't selling because people hate it, and the thing they hate most about it is the UI. Your constant denial of this isn't going to change the truth of is rancid adoption and being the worst selling and adoption Windows in 2 decades.



Except there's no start button, you can fit less icons on the screen, and it makes the interface look like a continous blob. Yes, aside from those things, its the same thing. The reaction to the tiles interface both during Beta-testing and sales and adoption rates has been extremely negative. That's the main reason this OS has tanked as bad as it has. It may surprise you but these so called "subjective things" are more important that your obsession with use cases for most Windows users.

Exactly, Vista with all its technical problems sold better. Even with all its bugs Windows ME sold better. We are talking about two of the buggiest OSes on history and they are outselling Windows 8 despite the fact it does not have anywhere near as many bug problems.


Now is the time for people who do not like the Metro style UI to stand there ground. We need to send a message to Microsoft via bad sales that people do not want a mobile OS on there computers before Microsoft tries to replace the desktop with Metro completely. That is another reason I hate Windows 8, I am worried it could be a sign of things to come.

I am still holding out hope that is not the case though. Hopefully Tablets will prove to be just a fad.

 

[Zelig]

Exactly, Vista with all its technical problems sold better. Even with all its bugs Windows ME sold better. We are talking about two of the buggiest OSes on history and they are outselling Windows 8 despite the fact it does not have anywhere near as many bug problems.


Now is the time for people who do not like the Metro style UI to stand there ground. We need to send a message to Microsoft via bad sales that people do not want a mobile OS on there computers before Microsoft tries to replace the desktop with Metro completely. That is another reason I hate Windows 8, I am worried it could be a sign of things to come.

I am still holding out hope that is not the case though. Hopefully Tablets will prove to be just a fad.

I see you're ignoring all of my points.

 

[Maniacal]

You know, somehow I doubt Microsoft expected Windows 8 to take the world by storm and sell a billion copies. I'm sure they'd like it to sell better of course, any business would, but I doubt they are actually very upset with how it is doing.

 

[Archbob]

There's really no evidence of this.

How long are you going to keep denying that people hate it. They aren't buying it, period. People buy things they like and won't buy things they don't like. They aren't buying it and weren't buying it even at the $30 price. It has horrible sales, a lot of complaints, especially about the UI, and almost no adoption. You can continue to stick your head in the sand, but its not going to change facts, sales figures, and other empirical data showing that people simply don't want Windows 8.

No, I'm pointing out that you can't show causation, and even if you could, it's not relevant.

That's because you can almost never show 100% causation on these things. But there's enough things to strongly suggest it that you can't ignore the circumstantial evidence. There are now OEM's that have now openly come out against Windows 8 saying that people simply aren't interested in it. What more evidence do you want? In business and marketing the data is sales figures, adoption rates, market share. Things like reviews are much more subjective.Those are the numbers that matter. And according to anything that matters Windows 8 is a total failure.

 

[Mr.WorldWide]

Honestly, how many normal users have 3 monitor setups Zelig? Your insistence to appeal to minority demographics is disappointing.

So you say "Hey, don't complain. After all, with enough money and fancy gadgets, Windows 8 can work just great for you!"

Now, everyone should run out and get a couple of tablets, a smartphone or two, a touch screen (or three) for your desktop workstation, uncapped fiber optic internet connection, the list goes on.

 

[sophie]

Except there's no start button, you can fit less icons on the screen, and it makes the interface look like a continous blob. Yes, aside from those things, its the same thing. The reaction to the tiles interface both during Beta-testing and sales and adoption rates has been extremely negative. That's the main reason this OS has tanked as bad as it has. It may surprise you but these so called "subjective things" are more important that your obsession with use cases for most Windows users.

People actually still press the start button? Why would you do that? There's a button on the keyboard for it!

 

[Mr.WorldWide]

Because causal users don't have one hand on the keyboard at all times. I know I don't, it's just faster to move the mouse over to the start button and give a quick click rather than find the windows key on my keyboard.

Soo it comes down to move my mouse a couple of CMs or move my hand a dozen or more CMs? The path of least resistance wins for me.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

So you say "Hey, don't complain. After all, with enough money and fancy gadgets, Windows 8 can work just great for you!"

Classic Shell is open-source, actually.
http://www.classicshell.net/

 

[Mr.WorldWide]

That's pretty cool, I'm going to try it.

 

[Archbob]

Classic Shell is open-source, actually.
http://www.classicshell.net/

There's your problem, I have to install a third-party program just to do this. Why not just have this by default and icon a button for people who want to switch to Metro? That makes more sense than doing it the other way around.

 

[Zelig]

How long are you going to keep denying that people hate it.

Until I'm presented with any evidence otherwise.

That's because you can almost never show 100% causation on these things. But there's enough things to strongly suggest it that you can't ignore the circumstantial evidence. There are now OEM's that have now openly come out against Windows 8 saying that people simply aren't interested in it. What more evidence do you want? In business and marketing the data is sales figures, adoption rates, market share. Things like reviews are much more subjective.Those are the numbers that matter. And according to anything that matters Windows 8 is a total failure.

Your argument seems to be:

1. People hate Windows 8, as shown by the low sales.
2. Windows 8 has low sales, because people hate it.

And again, even if you had evidence to support this, it's completely irrelevant to my argument that Windows 8 is no worse than Windows 7.

Honestly, how many normal users have 3 monitor setups Zelig? Your insistence to appeal to minority demographics is disappointing.

So you say "Hey, don't complain. After all, with enough money and fancy gadgets, Windows 8 can work just great for you!"

Now, everyone should run out and get a couple of tablets, a smartphone or two, a touch screen (or three) for your desktop workstation, uncapped fiber optic internet connection, the list goes on.

Basically no users have 3 monitor setups, it's simply a refutation of "Windows 8 is awful for power users", which is patently false, it's straight-up better on multiple monitors than Windows 7.

People actually still press the start button? Why would you do that? There's a button on the keyboard for it!

Well, even disregarding that you can still press it in Windows 8 (more easily than in Win7 if you've got multiple monitors), people who have specifically installed start button replacements in Win8 use them a massive 7 times per day.

There's your problem, I have to install a third-party program just to do this. Why not just have this by default and icon a button for people who want to switch to Metro? That makes more sense than doing it the other way around.

Because the start menu is pointless, it doesn't do anything that the start screen doesn't do.

 

[azzaman333]

Sales data isn't really relevant. The majority of people buy whatever OS is bundled with their new computer. They don't actually care what OS is on it as long as it can fulfil their basic needs.

 

[Archbob]

Your argument seems to be:

1. People hate Windows 8, as shown by the low sales.
2. Windows 8 has low sales, because people hate it.

Sales and adoption figures are the only hard empirical data in this industry. And really, they are the only hard evidence and the only thing that matters. Keep denying it if you want, but your just sticking your head in the sand. Whether you personally like it or not or your "use-cases" you seem to like so much are whats irrelevent to whether a OS is a success of a failure. The sales and adoption data is what determines if Microsoft made a mistake with Windows or not. You seem to not understand this.

Sales data isn't really relevant. The majority of people buy whatever OS is bundled with their new computer. They don't actually care what OS is on it as long as it can fulfil their basic needs.

This is actually where everyone who is trying to defend Windows 8 is wrong. You can look at computer sales trends vs usage rates across Windows platforms to see how a new OS is being adopted. Sales of PC's in general have gone down, but not nearly at the rate in which Windows 8 is underselling or underadopting Windows 7. The adoption rate is like 25% or 30% of what Windows 7's was during the same time period. PC sales have not dropped 70% or anywhere near that since Win 7 came out. So there are 2 options, neither bode well for Windows 8:

1. People are actually asking vendors for Machines that have Windows 7 installed instead of Windows 8, which means they really don't want Windows 8.

2. People are downgrading from Windows 8 back to Windows 7, which means they really don't want Windows 8.

Anyway you spin it, consumers simply don't want Windows 8.

Add to this that some vendors have now actively come out against Windows 8 due to lack of demand and complaints and articles like this one:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/10/us-pc-data-idUSBRE93914P20130410

Personal computer sales plunged 14 percent in the first three months of the year, the biggest decline in two decades of keeping records, as tablets continue to gain in popularity and buyers appear to be avoiding Microsoft Corp's new Windows 8 system, according to a leading tech tracking firm.

And its pretty easy to see that the majority of MS's core users hate Windows 8 and want nothing to do with it. You can't ignore the mountain of circumstancial and data evidence just because you can't prove 100% correlation.

However, Windows 8 has done the world some good as it has been hard for North Korea leadership to figure out:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...ssile-test-delayed-by-windows-8.html?mobify=0

North Korea’s official news agency announced today that the military’s planned missile test had been put on hold because of “problems with Windows 8.”

oh well, it was funnier the first time I read it.

 

[Zelig]

Sales and adoption figures are the only hard empirical data in this industry.

No, I've provided data:

http://www.zdnet.com/just-how-much-do-people-hate-windows-8-7000013319/

And really, they are the only hard evidence and the only thing that matters.

Certainly not to OS quality.

Keep denying it if you want, but your just sticking your head in the sand.

Pretty sure that's what you're doing here.

Whether you personally like it or not or your "use-cases" you seem to like so much are whats irrelevent to whether a OS is a success of a failure.

I've never made any claim about Windows 8 being a success, simply that it's not worse than Windows 7 on any objective merits.

The sales and adoption data is what determines if Microsoft made a mistake with Windows or not.

Nope.

You seem to not understand this.

I understand it, you're simply wrong, or speaking about things which aren't relevant.

This is actually where everyone who is trying to defend Windows 8 is wrong. You can look at computer sales trends vs usage rates across Windows platforms to see how a new OS is being adopted. Sales of PC's in general have gone down, but not nearly at the rate in which Windows 8 is underselling or underadopting Windows 7. The adoption rate is like 25% or 30% of what Windows 7's was during the same time period. PC sales have not dropped 70% or anywhere near that since Win 7 came out. So there are 2 options, neither bode well for Windows 8:

1. People are actually asking vendors for Machines that have Windows 7 installed instead of Windows 8, which means they really don't want Windows 8.

2. People are downgrading from Windows 8 back to Windows 7, which means they really don't want Windows 8.

Anyway you spin it, consumers simply don't want Windows 8.

Add to this that some vendors have now actively come out against Windows 8 due to lack of demand and complaints and articles like this one:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/10/us-pc-data-idUSBRE93914P20130410



And its pretty easy to see that the majority of MS's core users hate Windows 8 and want nothing to do with it. You can't ignore the mountain of circumstancial and data evidence just because you can't prove 100% correlation.

Some facts:

1. Consumer PC sales are way down because people are buying ipads and sticking with their old PCs.

2. Corporate sales are roughly steady.

3. Corporate clients are upgrading to Windows 7 because they've been planning to for years.

4. Windows 7 adoption rate was inflated because of corporations who skipped over Vista, and when 7 came out, they could no longer justify staying on an 8 year-old operating systems.

That can pretty much entirely explain Windows 8 adoption rates compared to Windows 7.