Has Microsoft stumbled?

[Archbob]

I've already addressed all of this, and you aren't able to point to any actual usage problems with Windows 8 compared to Windows 7.

You don't actually address any of it. You just spout out some reasons that really don't explain the lack of sales and adoption of Windows 8. Numbers are against all your explanations. People don't like this OS, thats what the stats are telling you. Anyone who isn't a blind fanboy can see that. Your explanation of "PC sales are down" or "corporations have always been slow to adopt" don't explain the especially bad numbers that Win 8 is doing in sales and adoption, your reasons and explanations are insufficient.

No ones cares if you make a great OS but stick it with a rancid ugly UI most people don't want to use.

Moderator Action: Use of Fanboy is flaming, please stop getting personal.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Iranon]

Don't see MS in trouble. They probably won't regain the power they had at their peak, but they'll remain a very big fish.

There are many ugly little compromises in Windows 8. Problem: Average users care more about continuity than good design. If MS is determined to integrate mobile/tablet/desktop experience (which is reasonable), doing it properly would have resulted in MORE backlash.

Also, does MS really have reason to care about adoption rates? Most people get their Windows licenses with a new PC, and someone who gets an older version now may come back sooner (compensating for the lack of revenue from the Windows Store ecosystem).
As long as people don't buy PCs without Windows in significant numbers, they're fine.

 

[Akka]

The amount of blind fanboyism in this thread has made for a rather (if unvoluntary) fun read.

But I don't really care about sales, as I've pointed out, they're not particularly related to OS quality. Windows 8 has already passed the most recent version of Mac OS in market share, they're both great operating systems, but by your logic the latest release of Mac OS must be a catastrophic failure.

Man, you're comparing an OS for less than 10 % of the computer market, with an OS for computers + tablets + smartphones with more than 90 % of the computer market.

That's breaking the limits of fanboyism to enter the realm of something that could only bring moderator actions if it was named. Stop ridiculing yourself.

Moderator Action: Please make your arguments without the personal attacks. They are what will bring moderator action.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Tommy Vercetti]

I do think Microsoft can recover from Windows 8 failing. They survived Windows ME and Vista failing. The difference is those versions of Windows had a lot of bug problems. Windows 8 has fundamental design flaws. Every time Microsoft has tried to make major changes to the interface it has failed. Microsoft Bob, Active Desktop and the sidebar all failed. Metro has elements from all those bad ideas. Metro UI being on Windows 8 is the reason it will fail. Microsoft has tried very hard to force Metro UI on people and it is backfiring. Removing the start menu and booting into Metro by default are just bad ideas. They also have no option included with Windows 8 to bring back the start menu, it is just stupid you have to third party options to bring it back. You also have to do a lot just to make it boot to desktop.

 

[Zelig]

You don't actually address any of it. You just spout out some reasons that really don't explain the lack of sales and adoption of Windows 8. Numbers are against all your explanations. People don't like this OS, thats what the stats are telling you. Anyone who isn't a blind fanboy can see that. Your explanation of "PC sales are down" or "corporations have always been slow to adopt" don't explain the especially bad numbers that Win 8 is doing in sales and adoption, your reasons and explanations are insufficient.

PC sales are down for ten consecutive quarters (with one a quarter exception in 2011), I guess Windows 8 is so awful it's been depressing PC sales for two years before it was released, going back to a year after the release of Windows 7.

And again, I don't care about sales numbers, you can't show any causation between lower sales and Windows 8 quality, what I care about are actual problems with Windows 8, and since you can't show any, you keep going on about sales numbers which aren't relevant to the OS quality.

The amount of blind fanboyism in this thread has made for a rather (if unvoluntary) fun read.

Man, you're comparing an OS for less than 10 % of the computer market, with an OS for computers + tablets + smartphones with more than 90 % of the computer market.

That's breaking the limits of fanboyism to enter the realm of something that could only bring moderator actions if it was named. Stop ridiculing yourself.

Windows 8 doesn't run on smartphones any more than Mac OS runs on smartphones and tablets.

Again, calling me a fanboy doesn't make any sense, my primary computer is a retina Macbook Pro, which is IMO the single best laptop available.

I do think Microsoft can recover from Windows 8 failing. They survived Windows ME and Vista failing. The difference is those versions of Windows had a lot of bug problems. Windows 8 has fundamental design flaws. Every time Microsoft has tried to make major changes to the interface it has failed. Microsoft Bob, Active Desktop and the sidebar all failed. Metro has elements from all those bad ideas. Metro UI being on Windows 8 is the reason it will fail. Microsoft has tried very hard to force Metro UI on people and it is backfiring. Removing the start menu and booting into Metro by default are just bad ideas. They also have no option included with Windows 8 to bring back the start menu, it is just stupid you have to third party options to bring it back. You also have to do a lot just to make it boot to desktop.

It would be great if you could point out any actual problem with using Windows 8, compared to Windows 7, like "opening a program takes longer", "seeing new emails is more difficult", "playing a game is worse", instead of "It's ugly and I don't like it".

 

[Akka]

Windows 8 doesn't run on smartphones any more than Mac OS runs on smartphones and tablets.

Again, calling me a fanboy doesn't make any sense, my primary computer is a retina Macbook Pro, which is IMO the single best laptop available.

Yeah, well, you can consider that RT and Windows Phone 8 aren't Windows 8 (technically it may be true, though it's still the same ecosystem).
Doesn't change that comparing the market share of one OS that is relevant for 5 % of the market to one that is relevant for 91 % is still pretty idiotic.

And your home system doesn't make you any less of a Windows 8 fanboy. Dismissing all criticisms as irrelevant and saying "nobody can point me one problem" for four pages while hiding your head in the sand is the epithome of fanboyism.

Windows 8's UI is liked by some (I have two co-workers who loves it), and hated by a lot more. You can't deny it's completely touch-oriented, inconsistent, confusing and breaking lots of habits for no real gain.
Well, actually you can, you've done it for tens of posts. You're still wrong, but you can.

 

[Archbob]

PC sales are down for ten consecutive quarters (with one a quarter exception in 2011), I guess Windows 8 is so awful it's been depressing PC sales for two years before it was released, going back to a year after the release of Windows 7.

And again, I don't care about sales numbers, you can't show any causation between lower sales and Windows 8 quality, what I care about are actual problems with Windows 8, and since you can't show any, you keep going on about sales numbers which aren't relevant to the OS quality.

Its not down by 70% nor is it even close. Causation is hard to show for anything, but Win 7 was great and its sales and adoption rates were great. ME and Vista were bad with problems and their adoptions rates were horrible. And people keep saying XP adoption rates were slow. Yes, perhaps, but they weren't Win 8 slow. Xp actually managed around 13% in its first year. The way Win 8 is going, it'll be lucky to hit half of that. This might be the worst selling, worst-adopting windows OS ever in the last 2 decades.

OS quality(as you see it) isn't relevent as to whether an OS is a success or a failure. Its whether people like it or not or find it pleasing to use. Win 8 fails for most people on both those measures. I've pointed out several things that make doing things in Win 8 slower than Win 7, like accessing a real control panel, not being able to stash enough small icons on the screen, and that big blocky icons that plain suck. You always disregard them as minor things no worthy of mentioned, but they are major things, much more important than you gaining 5 seconds of boot time, which the casual user doesn't care about. Here's a hint, no many people use the run command to type in the program name. Most people either click on of the many icons on their desktop or use the start menu. Windows 7 is better for both of those. The patchwork quilt default UI of Windows 8 is far worse for putting separate icons on the screen than the Aero of Win 7, it makes everything look like its one continous blob.

 

[Tommy Vercetti]

Its not down by 70% nor is it even close. Causation is hard to show for anything, but Win 7 was great and its sales and adoption rates were great. ME and Vista were bad with problems and their adoptions rates were horrible. And people keep saying XP adoption rates were slow. Yes, perhaps, but they weren't Win 8 slow. Xp actually managed around 13% in its first year. The way Win 8 is going, it'll be lucky to hit half of that. This might be the worst selling, worst-adopting windows OS ever in the last 2 decades.

OS quality(as you see it) isn't relevent as to whether an OS is a success or a failure. Its whether people like it or not or find it pleasing to use. Win 8 fails for most people on both those measures. I've pointed out several things that make doing things in Win 8 slower than Win 7, like accessing a real control panel, not being able to stash enough small icons on the screen, and that big blocky icons that plain suck. You always disregard them as minor things no worthy of mentioned, but they are major things, much more important than you gaining 5 seconds of boot time, which the casual user doesn't care about. Here's a hint, no many people use the run command to type in the program name. Most people either click on of the many icons on their desktop or use the start menu. Windows 7 is better for both of those. The patchwork quilt default UI of Windows 8 is far worse for putting separate icons on the screen than the Aero of Win 7, it makes everything look like its one continous blob.

I have been saying this for a long time. Metro UI on PC is terrible for all the mentioned reasons. I have called it unwieldy on a PC and unfriendly to keyboard and mouse users like myself. As to what you said about the adaptation rates, I think even the dreaded Windows ME did better on the market then how 8 is doing now.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I have been saying this for a long time. Metro UI on PC is terrible for all the mentioned reasons. I have called it unwieldy on a PC and unfriendly to keyboard and mouse users like myself. As to what you said about the adaptation rates, I think even the dreaded Windows ME did better on the market then how 8 is doing now.

Suppose that somebody actually likes the Metro UI. How would you refute them when you claim that Windows 8 is worse?

 

[Tommy Vercetti]

Suppose that somebody actually likes the Metro UI. How would you refute them when you claim that Windows 8 is worse?

They are in the minority. Just look at the sales and adaptation of Windows 8. That should be all the proof I need. Windows 8 is a FLOP. Nothing more needs to be said.

 

[leif erikson]

Windows 8 is a FLOP. Nothing more needs to be said.

Why, then, do you keep saying it?

 

[Archbob]

Why, then, do you keep saying it?

Because certain people keep trying to refute it, despite the numerical proof.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

They are in the minority. Just look at the sales and adaptation of Windows 8. That should be all the proof I need. Windows 8 is a FLOP. Nothing more needs to be said.

Suppose they don't care whether they are in the minority. What next?

(Seriously, all I want is something other than 'I hate Metro and it sucks')

 

[Archbob]

Suppose they don't care whether they are in the minority. What next?

(Seriously, all I want is something other than 'I hate Metro and it sucks')

The question is "has Microsoft stumbled" not "Do Zelig or Aimee like Windows or not".

If it doesn't sell and there's little adoption and a majority of people don't like it or won't buy it, then MS screwed up, simple as that.

Also, I've given several reasons, you just like to dismiss them as "unimportant" because they don't bother it bothers most of the core userbase.

 

[Mr.WorldWide]

It's not Metro, it's what's behind Metro.

Control

MS wants you logged into one account which they can monitor and track every thing you do. In return they will forcefeed you ads tailored to your history. If you put a toe out of line MS will close your account and you can say bye bye to all your purchased DLC.

After I purchase your software MS I want you to keep your long nose out of my life. We are selling the hard won freedoms everyday for convenience and security. In the end we will all be slaves.

 

[Tommy Vercetti]

It's not Metro, it's what's behind Metro.

Control

MS wants you logged into one account which they can monitor and track every thing you do. In return they will forcefeed you ads tailored to your history. If you put a toe out of line MS will close your account and you can say bye bye to all your purchased DLC.

After I purchase your software MS I want you to keep your long nose out of my life. We are selling the hard won freedoms everyday for convenience and security. In the end we will all be slaves.

That is another thing about Metro that worries me. I am very paranoid about my privacy.

 

[Zelig]

Yeah, well, you can consider that RT and Windows Phone 8 aren't Windows 8 (technically it may be true, though it's still the same ecosystem).
Doesn't change that comparing the market share of one OS that is relevant for 5 % of the market to one that is relevant for 91 % is still pretty idiotic.

Windows RT doesn't run on smartphones and Windows Phone isn't the same ecosystem. (Any more than iOS and Mac OS are the same ecosystem.)

And your home system doesn't make you any less of a Windows 8 fanboy. Dismissing all criticisms as irrelevant and saying "nobody can point me one problem" for four pages while hiding your head in the sand is the epithome of fanboyism.

I would equally defend any modern OS against baseless accusations of it being worse than its immediate predecessor. If you want to attack Mac OS 10.8 or Fedora 18, I'll happily explain how they're not any worse than 10.7 or 17. Ad hom attacks don't help you.

You can't deny it's completely touch-oriented, inconsistent, confusing and breaking lots of habits for no real gain.

Yes I can, because I have no trouble using Windows 8 on a triple-monitor non-touch setup. There is not a single thing it does worse than Windows 7 with only mouse and keyboard.

like accessing a real control panel

What? It's in the same place as Windows 7.

not being able to stash enough small icons on the screen

Yes, this is one of the few valid and relevant points you've made, this is rectified in 8.1.

and that big blocky icons that plain suck.

Subjective opinion which isn't widely held.

I have called it unwieldy on a PC and unfriendly to keyboard and mouse users like myself.

I'm a mouse user too! What specifically is harder for me to do in Windows 8 than in Windows 7?

Because certain people keep trying to refute it, despite the numerical proof.

You admitted that you can't show causation between sales and OS quality.

It's not Metro, it's what's behind Metro.

Control

MS wants you logged into one account which they can monitor and track every thing you do. In return they will forcefeed you ads tailored to your history. If you put a toe out of line MS will close your account and you can say bye bye to all your purchased DLC.

After I purchase your software MS I want you to keep your long nose out of my life. We are selling the hard won freedoms everyday for convenience and security. In the end we will all be slaves.

Great news! Metro, and all the features you mentioned are completely optional.

 

[Akka]

Yes I can, because I have no trouble using Windows 8 on a triple-monitor non-touch setup. There is not a single thing it does worse than Windows 7 with only mouse and keyboard.

Don't expect people to take you seriously when you sprout this kind of ridiculous statement.

 

[God of Kings]

I value my privacy greatly.

I hate tailored ads on my OS.

Windows 8 has tailored ads. The latest version of Linux Ubuntu has tailored ads. Fortunately, Mac OS X Mountain Lion (the one I use) currently does not have them (aside from the optional social sharing feature, which fortunately is optional and requires opting in to use the social sharing features (as I have no use for them)).

 

[Zelig]

Don't expect people to take you seriously when you sprout this kind of ridiculous statement.

How is it ridiculous? I don't have or use any Metro apps. The start screen works the same way as the start menu does. Why would my experience with a mouse and keyboard be any worse than Windows 7?

Windows 8 has tailored ads.

No it doesn't. Depending on install configuration, some of Microsoft's apps have ads, you don't see ads if you don't open these apps, and can uninstall them all from the start screen in about five seconds.

Still, this is one of the biggest problems I have with Windows 8, particularly since the apps are installed by default, and some of them are pretty nice other than the ads, but there's no option to pay for them, so they're useless to me.