Have Israel as a civ.

[Silurian]

Assyria should be in the game
They controlled much of the middle east including Israel

 

[JordanN]

I suspect that JordanN is perhaps Israeli? Anyway, since he thinks that EMT has lost "all credibility", perhaps he would like to mention some GOOD actions that Israel has taken?

Not Israeli (I wish I was one).

In tune with the Israeli leader, Begin I posted earlier, the Israeli strike on the Osirak reactor which sabotaged Iraq's nuclear plans. All though initially condemned by the international community ('cause you know? Stopping a dictator from getting nuclear weapons is seen as bad) the world later apologized for this when they saw Iraq's true intention following the invasion of Kuwait and their subsequent use of chemical weapons.

 

[EMT]

So they stopped a regime from getting nuclear bombs, when we still have the likes of basketcase dictatorship North Korea and secessionist and Islamist Pakistan around, much more dangerous than Iraq ever was or would be. Need I mention the Israelis, who have committed constant war crimes, also have nuclear bombs which they refuse to acknowledge? Made in cooperation with Apartheid South Africa? I totally agree that Saddam gone is a good thing, and him with no nukes even better. But really, how many places and how often has Israel done an airstrike on a shaky basis? Can anybody say, we see it once a month on the news? How have I lost credibility if the only positive thing Modern Israelis have done is stop the rise of another nuclear power, when it's hypocritical, as they themselves are a nuclear power? Israel can be as much a danger with nukes as Iraq with nukes, seeing as their both surrounded by enemies.

I'm still not seeing what the Israelis have done that merits them in Civilization V.

 

[mattigus]

This thread will end in blood and tears

 

[EMT]

This thread will end in blood and tears

I can already tell, seeing as opinions on Israel range from "KILL THE EVOL MOSLEMS, WOOT JEWS!" to "Israel is an illegitimate state and it's politicians should be considered war criminals, more insane liberal crud insert here".

If you can't guess, I lean to the latter, but not that extremely. But modern Israel as a civilization would be an insult to civilizations throughout history. Or make the Aztecs proud. One or the other. Because like the Aztecs, Israelis have been taking the organs of dead people, mostly Muslims, against their wishes and using it to aid the ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE for scientific and medicinal purposes, the same people killing said Muslims most of the time. Some may be extremists, but most are innocent.

 

[JordanN]

So they stopped a regime from getting nuclear bombs, when we still have the likes of basketcase dictatorship North Korea and secessionist and Islamist Pakistan around, much more dangerous than Iraq ever was or would be.

As bad as North Korea and Pakistan are, when was the last time they invaded or made serious threats against anyone?

Need I mention the Israelis, who have committed constant war crimes,

Any war crimes they commited were by mistake or minor(often apologizing or taking serious actions against unlike their terrorist foes and surrounding arab neighbours).

also have nuclear bombs which they refuse to acknowledge?

Their nukes of ambiguity is a deterrent to prevent the Middle East from ever ganging up on them again.

But really, how many places and how often has Israel done an airstrike on a shaky basis? Can anybody say, we see it once a month on the news?

What's your point? They don't just commit air strikes for the fun of it. They do it out of security of their nation.

How have I lost credibility

Easily with this quote. "and has so far done NOTHING but bad actions." Not the first time though I heard someone say that about the Jewish state.

Israel can be as much a danger with nukes as Iraq with nukes, seeing as their both surrounded by enemies.

Israel shows greater (if not one of the best) restraint in warfare compared to Iraq. You would have to be delusional to believe Israel would use a nuke first before Iraq.

I'm still not seeing what the Israelis have done that merits them in Civilization V.

4,000 years of history, technological and educational hub of the modern world, huge influence within the region (and else parts of the world), superior military, a major cultural center.

One or the other. Because like the Aztecs, Israelis have been taking the organs of dead people, mostly Muslims, against their wishes and using it to aid the ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE for scientific and medicinal purposes, the same people killing said Muslims most of the time. Some may be extremists, but most are innocent.

On organ harvesting, Israel said only certain individuals were involved in the scheme. The government declines organ harvesting as an official policy of the state (which includes the IDF).


Edit: I'm tired of the anti-Israel rambling. If you got an issue with the state, take it up on an Israeli forum. I'll only respond to feedback on the civ idea.

 

[EMT]

As bad as North Korea and Pakistan are, when was the last time they invaded or made serious threats against anyone?


Any war crimes they commited were by mistake or minor(often apologizing or taking serious actions against unlike their terrorist foes and surrounding arab neighbours).


Their nukes of ambiguity is a deterrent to prevent the Middle East from ever ganging up on them again.


What's your point? They don't just commit air strikes for the fun of it. They do it out of security of their nation.


Easily with this quote. "and has so far done NOTHING but bad actions." Not the first time though I heard someone say that about the Jewish state.


Israel shows greater (if not one of the best) restraint in warfare compared to Iraq. You would have to be delusional to believe Israel would use a nuke first before Iraq.


4,000 years of history, technological and educational hub of the modern world, huge influence within the region (and else parts of the world), superior military, a major cultural center.

I have to say, I have to love to debating Israel. We're talking about modern Israel here. 4000 years of history my waste paper basket, they haven't had a state for over 2000 years and the time before those 2000 years was as an on and off state. I think we should establish words to distinguish ancient and modern Israel, two completely different entities. Let's call ancient Israel 'Canaan', and modern Israel 'Israel'. Canaan COULD be in Civ 5.....after every more notable civilization in the Near East is in. I've already stated this in a previous post. I don't think I have to cover the civilizations I would like in, but let me explain Canaan's accomplishments. After the Aryans that invaded Northern India, the Canaanites, or Ancient Israelites(who probably looked more like Arabs then Caucasian Europeans as they do today) where one of the first invading tribes in recorded history. They invaded out of Ancient Egypt, escaping Ramses II, and conquering their own state under Joshua, I believe. Moses only LED them to the starting point of their invasion. Ancient Israel gets props for being the original 'invading tribe', the first settler state, an act they would repeat after World War II. Now, Joshua(or whoever it was invaded pre-Jewish Canaan, I can't be bothered to check right now)'s successor, invades more of the Eastern Mediterranean coast, obtaining a land that encompasses Modern Israel+Palestinian Territories, and eventually two kingdoms arise, Judah and Israel, not sure how or why this happened. Eventually, King David unites the kingdoms and goes on a rampage for a few years, going as far as Damascus(that isn't very fay). David losses Damascus soon after, and his son takes over, Solomon, who steadily manages to retain Israel's territory at that time, then, in the reign of his son, Rehoboam, the kingdom gets torn in two, and from that point forward, Canaan, or the Kingdom of Judah, plays as a vassal, a territory, or a warzone for the Babylonians, Hittites, Egyptians, Assyrians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Turks, British, Arab, and finally, modern Israel is founded as a settler state, trying to do what the Europeans did in the New World in the second half of the 20TH CENTURY, taking away land and rights from the previous people, with the British dishonoring their original promise to the Arab protectorates and allowing Israel to form.

Most of that history was spent dominated, or barely present in Canaan.
Now, to address what you just typed up.

North Korea demands food, energy, and ending of sanctions on a yearly basis, with a dictator who could honestly be considered clinically insane, they almost went to war with South Korea through countless occasions, and continually make threats. Pakistan fought FOUR WARS against India, and one of them was when they where nuclear powers. Pakistan today is a place trying to tear itself apart, that Islamabad won't allow, but it's happening slowly, no matter how hard they try.

War crimes by mistake my ass. Palestinians have been playing squatter to Israeli promises for half a century and denying them equal opportunities and constantly causing them to behave in kind to Israel. The Israelis conduct raids on a monthly basis inside the Palestinian territories. The British Government had many Israeli politicians labeled as War Criminals as recently as 2009. The Israeli army has never truly been tried individually for serious offenses. Seeing as how Israeli organ harvesting was simply answered with a 'So What?' kind of statement, is that really 'serious action?

Because the Israelis have been playing fair? Israel is a SETTLER STATE when ARAB NATIONALISM was taking up steam. Last time I check, Palestinians are ARABS. People from as far as Morocco and Sudan consider themselves nominally ARAB. If the Irish landed on Wales, and stated to the British, "This land once had a thriving Celtic culture and still has some traces of it. We are a Celtic culture. So this is ours now, and we'll let you keep the rainy marshes, the worst terrain in Wales. We just want the decent land. Bye now. Thanks for being such a great sport." What do you think the British would do? Don't judge Arabs as being aggressive when they had a legitimate reason. At that time, a pan-Arab state was not only a possibility, it was considered inevitable. Oh, and they build nukes using money from Irish American sympathizers and specialist, and silently let the British know that every major British city could possibly disappear in the case of retaliation.


The Israelis have attacked refugee centers for CIVILIANS in LEBANON. Does LEBANON mean nothing to you? The Israeli pastime sport of target practice from the air in Lebanon? The amount of times they have done it might even warrant them having a highscore sheet in their barracks for who's 'accidentally' hit Lebanon the most. Stating lunatic Muslims as an excuse isn't an answer, seeing as the Israelis are basically encouraging Muslims to radicalize with that type of diplomacy.

If it's not the first time you hear it, are you now suprised you have heard it again?

Finally, the Israelis have to show restraint because the world knows that discussing Israel's existence, how fair it was to both sides, did they even have the right, is a HOT TOPIC and a CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC at that. Meanwhile, bringing up the bi-annual wars Israel seems to start kind of gives you a reputation as being rather aggressive. Some nations and peoples don't take kindly to this, and Israel's war and civil treatment of others is viewed and inspected daily. Too big an uproar, and you could lose America's support and money, and without their money, Israel is suddenly a lot weaker. Iraq is more brutal, no denying, and they would most likely use a nuke first in the hands of Saddam, no denying. But the Israelis would rather nuke Cairo and Damascus then face the possibility of being restored to their 1948 borders.

 

[JordanN]

I was going to ignore it but seeing as all hope for this thread is essentially lost, I might as well correct the ignorance before this thread gets locked.

War crimes by mistake my ass. Palestinians have been playing squatter to Israeli promises for half a century and denying them equal opportunities and constantly causing them to behave in kind to Israel. The Israelis conduct raids on a monthly basis inside the Palestinian territories. The British Government had many Israeli politicians labeled as War Criminals as recently as 2009. The Israeli army has never truly been tried individually for serious offenses. Seeing as how Israeli organ harvesting was simply answered with a 'So What?' kind of statement, is that really 'serious action?

What Israeli promises? Israel wasn't the original caretaker of the Palestinians. They get equal opportunities if they denounce jihad. Compare the lives of Palestinians living in the disputed West Bank versus Gaza and you'll those in the West Bank have a far better life then those in Gaza. It's rather inane for Britain to label certain Israelis as war criminals despite them not actually being so but rather the fact they don't address (or are taking too long to address) war criminals at home (*cough* Blair).

When evidence is brought up, a soldier does face trial and proper jurisdiction. However, calling something serious when the most of the time it really isn't serious or cracked out to be a war crime doesn't really mean much.

The whole organ harvest issue is a mix of fabrication and half-truths.

Because the Israelis have been playing fair? Israel is a SETTLER STATE when ARAB NATIONALISM was taking up steam. Last time I check, Palestinians are ARABS. People from as far as Morocco and Sudan consider themselves nominally ARAB. If the Irish landed on Wales, and stated to the British, "This land once had a thriving Celtic culture and still has some traces of it. We are a Celtic culture. So this is ours now, and we'll let you keep the rainy marshes, the worst terrain in Wales. We just want the decent land. Bye now. Thanks for being such a great sport." What do you think the British would do? Don't judge Arabs as being aggressive when they had a legitimate reason. At that time, a pan-Arab state was not only a possibility, it was considered inevitable. Oh, and they build nukes using money from Irish American sympathizers and specialist, and silently let the British know that every major British city could possibly disappear in the case of retaliation.

A settler state? Puh-leeze? Israel was founded on legally purchased land and later, land given to them by the UN and later land conquered from invading arabs. No doubt the Palestinian are arabs. That's what they were called when the nationality "Palestinian" didn't exist.

The Israelis have attacked refugee centers for CIVILIANS in LEBANON. Does LEBANON mean nothing to you? The Israeli pastime sport of target practice from the air in Lebanon? The amount of times they have done it might even warrant them having a highscore sheet in their barracks for who's 'accidentally' hit Lebanon the most. Stating lunatic Muslims as an excuse isn't an answer, seeing as the Israelis are basically encouraging Muslims to radicalize with that type of diplomacy.

They don't attack those areas without cause.

From my understanding, those "refugee camps" are actually camps that house militants (as seen in the 1982 war). Attacking them is no different then raiding poor neighborhoods full of gangs.

I see Lebanon as a country with a lot of potential. However, until they reverse their support for Hezbollah, they wont be gaining full sympathies from me.

Pastime? Far from it.

Finally, the Israelis have to show restraint because the world knows that discussing Israel's existence, how fair it was to both sides, did they even have the right, is a HOT TOPIC and a CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC at that. Meanwhile, bringing up the bi-annual wars Israel seems to start kind of gives you a reputation as being rather aggressive. Some nations and peoples don't take kindly to this, and Israel's war and civil treatment of others is viewed and inspected daily. Too big an uproar, and you could lose America's support and money, and without their money, Israel is suddenly a lot weaker. Iraq is more brutal, no denying, and they would most likely use a nuke first in the hands of Saddam, no denying. But the Israelis would rather nuke Cairo and Damascus then face the possibility of being restored to their 1948 borders.

No, they show restraint because it's the responsible thing to do as a representative democratic nation in the Middle East. Israel doesn't start wars, they finish them.

Err, not a lot weaker. Israel was doing well before U.S support came in and even now, the U.S wants to keep it as it's a form of income (war industry much?).

Even at the 1948 borders, they still wouldn't use them.

 

[Midnight-Blue766]

Please lock this thread before it is too late.

 

[EMT]

Where exactly are you from? So I can get an idea for why you might be so pro-Israeli. More importantly, are you Jewish? That might explain why you are so optimistically ignoring Israeli actions against others. Israel has been promising a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem for decades, but has been working it's best to delay it. Blair's as much a war criminal as any Israeli president, take your pick. Organ harvesting has been on the news recently about how the Swedish guy who wrote about it was right. Owning property or land on the Palestinian mandate doesn't make it your land, it makes it the land of the Palestinian mandate for your general usage of choice. By your definition I could secede my house and join Peru. OH MY GOD THE UNITED NATIONS. THE United Nations. The United Nations which has proven so effective at solving problems? The only time it ever did anything was when the Soviets walked out in disgust. You honestly think every Lebanese citizen supports Hezbollah? No matter what, their will most likely be several disgruntled Muslims in any given town or city in the Muslim world, and he/she could easily turn to radical means. Does stopping them by air bombing justify all the damage you do to their country, their progress, and the innocent? Most attempted terrorist acts fail, or are caught. Israel MOST CERTAINLY starts wars. Have you heard anything about Lebanon recently? I consider sticking your military inside the Palestinian territories as an act of war against Palestinians, seeing as they most certainly do not want you in there. Meanwhile, Israel has baited for war several times. Strikes in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and possibly Iran in the future could be considered acts of war. 1948 borders would mean losing Jerusalem. I think they would use them. Now, I'm not going to act as though Arabs are right, and Jews are wrong. But Israel IS a settler state, because increasing the population of your fellows tenfold and displacing the population that was there before you is not a settler state. Neither is the United States, Canada, Mexico, Cuba, or any other state in the New World that's partially or mostly white.

 

[Midnight-Blue766]

I'm a Gentile, and I don't really care much for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I abhor flame wars in general, though.

 

[JordanN]

That might explain why you are so optimistically ignoring Israeli actions against others. Israel has been promising a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem for decades, but has been working it's best to delay it. Blair's as much a war criminal as any Israeli president, take your pick.

Israel hasn't promised squat.
Israeli president's haven't started illegal wars whereas Blair has.

Organ harvesting has been on the news recently about how the Swedish guy who wrote about it was right.

It had no proof to back it up let alone the story was already reported by Iran's state run press.
Also recently? What's your news source? Al Jazeera?

Owning property or land on the Palestinian mandate doesn't make it your land, it makes it the land of the Palestinian mandate for your general usage of choice.

Yes, and when the mandate expired, where did the land ultimately go to? Those who had bought it.

You honestly think every Lebanese citizen supports Hezbollah? No matter what, their will most likely be several disgruntled Muslims in any given town or city in the Muslim world, and he/she could easily turn to radical means.

It varies. Those living in South Lebanon do support them. Their government supports them.

Israel MOST CERTAINLY starts wars

Nope. Wars said to be started by Israel where actually started by their neighbors.

Two examples:
Operation Cast Lead in 2008-09 was in response to qassam rockets attacking southern Israel. 2006 Lebanon war was in response to Hezbollah kidnapping two soldiers and launching diversionary rocket attacks at northern Israel.

Have you heard anything about Lebanon recently?

I sure have. The Lebanese Prime Minister pledged support for Hezbollah in case war was to break out with Israel.

I consider sticking your military inside the Palestinian territories as an act of war against Palestinians, seeing as they most certainly do not want you in there.

The harsh reality is they need Israel's military to keep them safe. And by safe I mean prevent Fatah and Hamas from killing each other like they did in Gaza after Israel left.

Meanwhile, Israel has baited for war several times. Strikes in Syria,

Syria was building a nuclear reactor with North Korea. Never a good sign for Israel.

Lebanon,

In response to Hezbollah and irregular militant activities.

Iraq,

What?

Now, I'm not going to act as though Arabs are right, and Jews are wrong. But Israel IS a settler state, because increasing the population of your fellows tenfold and displacing the population that was there before you is not a settler state. Neither is the United States, Canada, Mexico, Cuba, or any other state in the New World that's partially or mostly white.

They don't displace Palestinians unless there are those living there illegally (see Arab occupation of East Jerusalem,West Bank and Gaza from 1948-1967).

 

[EMT]

Screw this. The root of the problem is that Israel is a settler state, no question about it, and the choices they've made haven't impacted the world in the positive way. But now we're derailing to politics, which we most likely should not be doing. Our varying opinions on how they do so can't really be changed.

 

[Padma]

Please lock this thread before it is too late.

:sigh:

It's already too late.

But, Moderator Action: Thread closed. anyway.

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