Have Israel as a civ.

[JordanN]

Although probably already touched upon, I'd give my input on what an Israeli civ could look like.

*also, these figures are a mix of both Civ III and Civ IV
*update! In all political correctness, historical Israel and the state of Israel would be regarded as different.


Civilization: Ancient Israel / State of Israel
Description: Despite it's modern day creation 50 years ago, Israel has a history spanning 4000 years. Being the center of Judaism as well as many conflicts within the region.
Starting technologies: Polytheism, Writing
Capital: Jerusalem

Leader of Ancient Israel: King David.
(Spiritual, Aggressive)

Favourite Government: Monarchy

Leader of the state of Israel: Menachem Begin.

(Industrious,Protective)
Favourite Government: Republic

Wonders: Second Temple

Attributes: Cultural,Religious
Requires: Stone, Incense
Benefits: Free maintenance for temples.

Special units:
Ancient: Coming soon.

Modern: Merkava

Stats:
Attack:20
Defense: 24
Movement: 3
Resources: Oil, Aluminum, Rubber

Cities: Hebron, Jericho, Beer'sheva, Ashkelon, Nazareth, Tel Aviv, Eilat, Haifa,

 

[Camikaze]

The problem is, that whilst being a Civ of reasonable importance in history, that importance is nowhere near enough for them to warrant a place in the game, particularly considering that there will only be 18 civs in Vanilla Civ V. And that's not to mention the political problems with having Israel as a civ. So I wouldn't hold your breath for Israel to be in Civ.

 

[zulu9812]

1. Israel is tiny

2. Almost no correlation can be drawn between the Israel kingdom of thousands of years ago and the nation state of Israel today, so which do you choose?

 

[Midnight-Blue766]

Oh God. Please lock this thread before anything bad happens.

 

[JordanN]

1. Israel is tiny

2. Almost no correlation can be drawn between the Israel kingdom of thousands of years ago and the nation state of Israel today, so which do you choose?

1. So is Zululand (if not smaller than Israel).

2. The whole Zionist movement is based on the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine (and guess which kingdom gives rise to that? Ancient Israel that is). The two are connected through history.

 

[JordanN]

Edit: Whoops, double post.

 

[EMT]

The Zionist movement was founded by Atheistic Jews, however that works. I wouldn't call that any correlation between ancient Israel and modern Israel, seeing as Judaism as a religion is taken out of the equation. It's results today and the conflicts it's spawned are a REASON to keep Israel out of Civilization games. If Ancient Israel gets in, I want to see Sumer, Akkad, Babylon, the Hittites, Assyria, Axum, Kish, Phoenicia, and really any other political entity in the Near East more deserving than Ancient Israel. I think each individual reincarnation of the Persian Empire deserves a spot more than Ancient Israel, seeing as it fell shortly after King David...

 

[zulu9812]

1. So is Zululand (if not smaller than Israel).

2. The whole Zionist movement is based on the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine (and guess which kingdom gives rise to that? Ancient Israel that is). The two are connected through history.

1. At their peak, the Zulu people spread out across southern Africa, including what is now South Africa, Zimbabwe, Zambia and Mozambique.

2. The whole Zionist movement is based on the establishment of a Jewish homeland in an empty land. Palestine didn't count, because there were people living there.

3. Again, it is very difficult to draw a correlation between ancient Israel and modern Zionism, For example, most Israelis are of Eastern European and Russian descent. So you'd need to pick which one would be Israel in Civ, in much the same way that Firaxis drew a line between modern England and the ancient Britons.

 

[zulu9812]

I think each individual reincarnation of the Persian Empire deserves a spot more than Ancient Israel, seeing as it fell shortly after King David...

Agreed, the ancient kingdom of Israel wasn't around for very long, and the modern nation state of Israel hasn't been around for very long. And if Firaxis were to do down the road of including modern nation states, why not Canada, or Australia (both of which have been around longer than Israel)?

 

[climat]

Oh, God. After Canadians, now Jews.

 

[JordanN]

The Zionist movement was founded by Atheistic Jews, however that works. I wouldn't call that any correlation between ancient Israel and modern Israel, seeing as Judaism as a religion is taken out of the equation.

Obviously, I'm taking religion into account. I wont argue early pioneers in bringing back Israel were atheist but there were also those who wanted to maintain the religious connection.

Edit: In fact, didn't Herzl say it was the Jews God given/religious right to bring back Israel?

It's results today and the conflicts it's spawned are a REASON to keep Israel out of Civilization games.

Can't the same be said about America?

If Ancient Israel gets in, I want to see Sumer, Akkad, Babylon, the Hittites, Assyria, Axum, Kish, Phoenicia, and really any other political entity in the Near East more deserving than Ancient Israel.

Most of what you listed are there (Babylon,Sumer,Hittites,Phoenicia) or exist in another civilization in some form.

I think each individual reincarnation of the Persian Empire deserves a spot more than Ancient Israel, seeing as it fell shortly after King David...

Why each? Persia will always be Persia.

Agreed, the ancient kingdom of Israel wasn't around for very long,

Same with Zulu (it only existed for 81 years).

 

[Camikaze]

Most of what you listed are there (Babylon,Sumer,Hittites,Phoenicia) or exist in another civilization in some form.

By the same token that Israel exists in the Roman, Persian, Greek, etc. civilization in another form?

 

[JordanN]

By the same token that Israel exists in the Roman, Persian, Greek, etc. civilization in another form?

Yes, but that's due to the kingdom being conquered (and liberated each time).

 

[Takhisis]

Absolutely not!!! It wasn't a world power, it wasn't hevily populated, let it happen in a mod!
Let's just hope that the game has no maximum number of civs.

 

[JordanN]

Absolutely not!!! It wasn't a world power, it wasn't hevily populated, let it happen in a mod!
Let's just hope that the game has no maximum number of civs.

Zulu's weren't a world power. In fact, many small civs were not world powers. Same with population.

 

[zulu9812]

Zulu's weren't a world power. In fact, many small civs were not world powers. Same with population.

Other civilizations have the distinction of having been around before 1948. Once again, if we're going down the road of modern nations, they're other more deserving to be included in ciV - Brazil, for example.

 

[EMT]

America's positive actions can debatably outweigh their bad actions. Meanwhile, Israel's only accomplishment in modern times is to be a catalyst for every conflict in the Arab World and has so far done NOTHING but bad actions. I can't name a single good action. Are you a republican, by any chance? The guys that seem to have a 1-sided view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the Israeli-Arab conflicts? Just because a Jew claims to have the right to something doesn't make it theirs. My Flying Spaghetti Monster religion states that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists and is President of Finland. Does that make it true to someone not of my supposed religion? Phoenicia hasn't ever been in a Civ game, the Hittites weren't in 4, and it's possible Sumer won't return, even in expansion packs. Kish, Axum, Nubia, Ur, and Assyria have never been in Civilization. There's a difference between Achaemanid Persia, Hellenized Persia, Muslim Persia, Anrgy Revanchist Persia of the Sassanids, Safavid Persia, and angry Theocratic Iran of today. The Zulu beat a superpower, were in a hit movie, and where a symbol to all African colonies to resists their colonial masters. Already a lot more of a case than Moden or Ancient Israel have. That hit movie alone is more good than Modern Israel has ever done.

 

[Silurian]

Macedonia should be in the game
Alexander captured Jerusalem from the Persians in 332BC

 

[JordanN]

and has so far done NOTHING but bad actions.

And that's where you lose all credibility.

Are you a republican, by any chance?

I'm not American.

 

[zulu9812]

I suspect that JordanN is perhaps Israeli? Anyway, since he thinks that EMT has lost "all credibility", perhaps he would like to mention some GOOD actions that Israel has taken?