Hearing Set In Battle Over Teen's Life Support

[GenMarshall]

Now I am realy confused on this. The Teenager is brain-dead but yet the medical doctors placed him on life support? .

Supposedly, the doctor replied "Don't waste your time praying, god doesn't exist in this century." This of course upset the family.

I would be upset too if someone told me that at my face. My instincts when someone would say that to me would be to punch the guy in the face, but insted I would seek a Catholic Chaplin in the Hospital for spiritual support.

 

[.Shane.]

If he's brain dead, he should just be allowed to exit properly. The remark was pretty tasteless though.

Except you have NO IDEA if it was said or not.

I'm sure it was tacked on as these stories tend to grow as people try to attach their agendas to it.

Get the 2nd opinion and if it concurs, pull the plug.

 

[Mathilda]

The part I don't understand is how is it faster to go through a couple of court cases than find one neurosurgeon

 

[El_Machinae]

I believe they got an injunction, to give time to get another opinion.

 

[Masquerouge]

Another modern American tale. A teen kills himself with a gun he shouldn't have been handling in the first place. Then religion takes the floor. His death was tragic while the aftermath is pathetic.

Good summary

 

[Cu Chulainn]

So long as they're paying the hospital I see no problem. They should not be required to supply resources to a hopeless case pro-bono though.

 

[Turner]

Except you have NO IDEA if it was said or not.

As I said, I've been unable to find an online source stating that the doctors said that. However, I did hear an interview on the radio with the boy's aunt. It's my understanding that she was present when the doctor made this remark.

I'm still trying to run that down.

 

[blackheart]

I've seen the doctors at KUMed. Arrogant bunch, they are.

Isn't any good doctor slightly arrogant to begin with?

As I said, I've been unable to find an online source stating that the doctors said that. However, I did hear an interview on the radio with the boy's aunt. It's my understanding that she was present when the doctor made this remark.

I'm still trying to run that down.

If it isn't verified I'm not going to believe it. People have been known to fabricate things to benefit their cause.

 

[Turner]

Isn't any good doctor slightly arrogant to begin with?

There's arrogant, and then there's arrogant. I expect doctors to be somewhat arrogant. But the experience we had showed me just how arrogant they can be.

If it isn't verified I'm not going to believe it. People have been known to fabricate things to benefit their cause.

Indeed. I certainly hold some doubt about it as well. I was able to find someone who's willing to say that the doctor said it:

KANSAS CITY, Kan. – The dispute over an accident shooting victim declared brain dead is on hold until Monday.

Michael Todd, 14, will stay on life support at KU Med Center for at least four more days. Doctors declared Michael brain dead eight days ago. Michael's mom doubts her son is brain dead. On Monday, Ceceila Cole and KU Med Center attorneys will argue their cases in open court.

The agony of this ordeal is a heavy burden for Cole, but she is not backing down.

"I just want to thank the court for giving me this extra time to get a second opinion which I've wanted in the beginning," Cole said.

On May 10, Michael accidentally shot himself in the neck with a 9mm rifle. The next day, KU doctors told her he was brain dead. Cole's legal fight to keep him on life support began.

"The whole story is delicate because it's based on allegations of what people said – things that are really offensive," said Mary Kay Culp, executive director of Kansans For Life. "When they said you've done what you can do, now let's see what God can do or something like that, they were told by a particular doctor that in this century there is no God and if your God is so strong then why are you so afraid to take the machinery away. So, they took offense."

KU Med Center officials are focused on one thing right now.

"We still want to work with the family to come up with a compassionate ending to this," said KU Spokesman Dennis McCulloch.

Complicating this issue is the fact that this is not the first time Cole has faced a similar situation. Several years ago, her 3-year-old child died after an accidental shooting at her home. Michael apparently shot himself at a relative's house, and this time Cole wants an independent neurosurgeon to make a separate evaluation.

KU officials say they are fine with that.

Source.

Edit: Part of my doubt has to do with the fact that the family said the only reason the doctors want to pull the plug is so that they can harvest his organs for organ donation. In the interview on the radio I heard, the newscasters kept making the point that no one can take his organs without family approval. Now, perhaps someone was trying to strongarm them into signing the papers, perhaps not. It's a little fuzzy on how they came to believe that. The aunt did say in the interview that now they understand that no one can take his organs without the family's approval.

 

[.Shane.]

Indeed. I certainly hold some doubt about it as well. I was able to find someone who's willing to say that the doctor said it:

That's a second hand piece of info. You'd have to have the people whom it was said to verify that. W/out that verification, you just have people w/ agendas.

That aside, it does remind me of one of my favorite mantras:

"there are no atheists in a foxhole and no believers in the doctors office."

 

[Turner]

No, I agree. But here's a second source that's going on record and stating that the doctor said that. Will the doctor actually come out and say that she said it? Doubtful. Obviously, the family heard something to that effect.

I do remain skeptical of the incident. But it wouldn't surprise me if the doctor said one thing, and meant it a certain way, and the family misheard or misunderstood what was said and took it another way.

 

[Cuivienen]

Well "braindead" means different things to different people. The important parts of the brain might still retain their neural structure, and are thus worth preserving - since the mind is still repairable, just damaged.

For example, the parts of the brain that keep the body alive are separate from the parts that contain the "Me and my memories and personality".

The neuroscientists will be able to determine what's still functioning and what isn't. If the 'important' bits are still alive, and the parts keeping the rest of the body aren't, then cryonics is an option. If the 'important bits' are ruined, then it doesn't matter.

"Brain dead" means that the parts of your brain that control things like breathing and swallowing are not working. That's about as dead as yet can get, and there's rarely anything to preserve. (Much more severe than Permanent Vegetative State [a la Terri Schiavo], which leaves you able to breathe and swallow and do a few other essential things on your own.)

 

[malclave]

There's arrogant, and then there's arrogant. I expect doctors to be somewhat arrogant. But the experience we had showed me just how arrogant they can be.

Some recently deceased were patiently waiting in line at the gates of Heaven. Suddenly, a man wearing surgical scrubs and a lab coat, with a stethoscope around his neck, barged through the line, flung open the gates, and strode through. Those in line were aghast... "who was that, and why did you just let him storm through like that?", they asked. Saint Peter replied, "oh, that was God... sometimes he likes to pretend he's a doctor."


Anyway, on topic, I am somewhat confused by the hospital's stance. The related articles (from the link in the OP) suggest that the hospital wants to harvest the organs for transplant. However, I would think that antagonizing the family would be more likely to result in the permission for harvesting the organs being withdrawn. It seems to me that it would be in the hospital's interest to actively try to aid the family's request to have another neurosurgeon confirm brain death.

(my apologies in advance to anyone offended by the blatant religious references in this post)

 

[Turner]

I haven't seen or heard anything out here suggesting that KUMed is trying to harvest the organs. But the aunt did say “It’s so quick,” said Odette Cole, Todd’s aunt. “He’s 14 years old. …You’re acting like you’re in a grocery store for body parts.” And KUMed told reporters "Organ donation is handled separately from determinations of brain death, Lefrak and other experts said. “We don’t approach a family member about organ donation until the loved one is pronounced brain dead and a doctor has talked to them about it,” said Jan Finn, chief operating officer of the Midwest Transplant Network."

Sorry, but I think registration is required for viewing the full articles.

 

[malclave]

I haven't seen or heard anything out here suggesting that KUMed is trying to harvest the organs.

The organ donor references are from the "previous stories" link at the bottom of the article.

From http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/9224679/detail.html (May 16):

Additionally, Michael's family argues that the hospital wants to remove the boy from life support because it wants to use his organs for a donor program. Cole said doctors approached her about harvesting the organs even before declaring her son brain dead.

and

But the hospital insists it follows state-mandated regulations for determining brain death and that it wouldn't necessarily benefit from Michael's organs.

"You do not sell organs. They're donated," said spokesman Dennis McCulloch. "The organ bank allocates them. They may not go to this hospital. There may be someone more needy."

From http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/health/9219847/detail.html (May 15):

Cole has also said the hospital wants to pull Todd off life support to harvest his organs.

McCulloch said there's no way a transplant can occur without the family's approval first, especially in the case of a minor.

 

[Turner]

Right, it's the family contending that KUMed wants to harvest the organs. Just as they contend that the doctor said "there is no god in this century." Until I hear from a source outside of the family, I'm not going to believe it.

 

[El_Machinae]

"Brain dead" means that the parts of your brain that control things like breathing and swallowing are not working.

Exactly. That part of the brain does not contain the personality. Honestly, those functions could be replaced with cybernetics, and we'd still have a person. The the non-cerebellum parts are still alive, there might be something to preserve.

 

[Brian_B]

They may want to harvest his organs but no hospital can do so unless the patient is marked as an organ doner (usually on his or her driver's license) or the family allows it. The base line is that they can't do it so the family might have been misinterpreting the hospital's simple inquiries.

 

[Xanikk999]

They should just pull the plug. If theres no hope of recovery theres no point in tying up the hospitals resources.

Sad story but you gotta do what you gotta do and let it end.

 

[Turner]

Shooting Victim Removed From Life Support

KANSAS CITY, Kan. -- A 14-year-old boy who had been at the center of a legal battle was removed from life support Friday after his family agreed, a family spokeswoman said.

Octavia Southall, a minister who served as a spokeswoman for the family of Michael J. Todd, said the family agreed to have the boy removed from life support after a 90-minute examination by an independent neurosurgeon confirmed he was brain-dead.

"They're at peace with the decision. They're not fighting it," Southall said.

Todd's family had earlier received a temporary restraining order to stop the University of Kansas Medical Center from disconnecting the boy. His mother, Cecilia B. Cole, had said she wanted a second opinion to confirm the Kansas doctor's diagnosis before she made that decision.

Cole claimed her son had showed signs of life by responding to touch, shedding tears, trying to open his right eye and attempting to grip the hands of those holding his hands. The medical evaluations suggested that such actions could not have happened.

"Of course there was grief, you know; of course there was pain. But as far as fighting, there was none, none at all," Southall said.

On May 9, Todd was shot in the neck at an apartment in Blue Springs, Mo. A witness told police that a 9 mm rifle might have gone off accidentally.

The next day, doctors told Todd's family that he was brain-dead. Attorneys for the hospital asked a Wyandotte County judge to lift the restraining order to allow doctors to remove Todd from life support.

Southall said the boy's family simply wanted to keep doctors from rushing to any decision on his fate.

"Life is so important," she said, "that we shouldn't be so quick to make a diagnosis."

A judge dissolved the temporary restraining order at 3:40 p.m. Friday, and a respirator and all tubes were disconnected.

The death certificate will list May 10 as the date Todd died.

Todd's relatives had claimed the hospital wanted him declared dead so his organs could be harvested for transplant. Hospital officials denied the allegation, saying no organs are ever taken without a family's consent.

The hospital said the boy's organs were not being donated.

Todd's family is now making funeral arrangements. A fund has been set up to help the family. Donations can be sent to:


Michael J. Todd Family Fund
Bank Of America
1200 Main St.
Kansas City, MO 64105