Hegemon! Of the Classical Greek World!

[iPwn]

Well, look what I found, a new version of Hegemon. I see some interesting changes, the most important must be the fact that some previously challenging civs are now easy simply because You have added a river to capital, which means the main reason they were tricky is now gone. My deepest condolences to one of my old favorite civs Elis, who now have an UU that comes too late to matter instead of awesome Aetolian javelineers they had before - two of those could even kill Spartan hoplite. In this case added river does not make up for anything.
Since my favorite occupation in Hegemon is taking a lesser civ and killing Lydia ( they are the most powerful civ in AI 'hands'), I noticed that for some strange reason You have buffed Aiolians - they were already by far the strongest Lydia killers - by placing copper near Pergamon. While poor Ionians are still dreaming about a single bonus grass tile ... But actually what Am I talking, I havent played yet, just tinkered a bit with editor. What I really wanted to say = congratulations with the new release! kthxbai

 

[Rambuchan]

Hi, sorry for the silence, my email notifications are really erratic! Just got iPwn's, but was unaware of the other posts. I'll now answer everyone in turn.

Virote:

Glad you're liking the pedia entries. They took flippin' ages to do!

Thanks also on the King of Ithake advice. I've got a biq with the recommended changes made. I'll gather other feedback from players about other little tweaks that may need to be made and then release it.

Quick question relating to Takhisis's note on the missing Athens Ancestor: Did you notice Athens not performing quite as they should? Being a bit too shy to wage war, not building wonders, for example? As always, it's been mighty difficult to get the AI to behave like a thalassocracy with Athens, but I'm wondering what difference the lack of their immobile ancestor has made. Any observations much appreciated.

Takhisis:

Thanks for spotting the Athens ancestor thing. I was running tests with them to check out various things and quite forgot to put the ancestor back!

PiotrG:

I am happy to know you understand about the resources now. It isn't a very big problem really, when you consider the fun that is possible with having all those resources. I am looking forward to hearing your game report - when your wife has time to translate!

Vuldacon:

Thanks for the heads up on the Script file for the Science Advisor. As Hans Solo said to Princess Leah when she told him I love you: "Yes, I know". I was changing the names of the techs till the last minute and never got round to doing the Script file. Many tech names I'm still not entirely happy with, Mathematics for example, though the tech icon points to what I'm really getting at. There were/are still many things that can be done. Those I didn't deal with are the minor cosmetic things.

 

[Rambuchan]

iPwn:

Good to hear from you! You seem to have developed a very good understanding of Hegemon. However, don't be deceived, the changes that have been made aren't just a bit of river here and there. The minor civs have had their unit lines tweaked a fair bit too, for example, so that some of them (like Phocis) are much more powerful, whilst others are weaker. Then there's all the music, art, victory screens, city screens, pop heads and....the Hegemonic Victory animation.

One big change that you may not have noticed is with Macedonia. They are now much more powerful, whether in human or AI hands. Plenty of other stuff and it's only when you load up the game and play through that you will see most of the changes that have been made.

In terms of Elis: They shouldn't really be able to take out the Spartans (like the Aetolians famously took down Athens in a war). The Spartans came to their aid as a superpower a few times because Elis, being a bit puny, couldn't deal with it themselves. So their new UU is designed to give them some defensive abilities in their homeland but pull them back a bit from being a potential rampager.

Regarding the Aiolians: Sure, they may have that source of copper now, but they are still weak early on when using it. Although a human can do fairly well with them, I had to beef them up some because the AI just kept getting crushed (usually by Lydia) every single test game I played through. The change was made to basically give them the ability (when in AI hands) to at least hang around a bit, as they blossomed quite late in the scenario's time period. Tests showed that that seems to have been achieved. And humans should be able to have even more fun with them now, especially with that funky Arbitrator UU, though Lydia will still be mighty tough if not dealt with early.

Your fun over in Asia Minor: It's really good to hear guys have been enjoying things on that side of the map. It's quite a different game over there. I had some really good test games with Lydia (domination victory) and with both Ionia (just being rebellious and taking down Lydia, didn't quite achieve the Tribute Victory, even with all their new Colony Wonders) and Aiolia (pretty much same story as with Ionia).

Anyway, it would be really good to hear more of what you've been doing with the previous version and now with this version. I was totally unaware of the fun you'd been having. If I had known, I could have put more attention into making those aspects even better for you.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Virote:

Quick question relating to Takhisis's note on the missing Athens Ancestor: Did you notice Athens not performing quite as they should? Being a bit too shy to wage war, not building wonders, for example? As always, it's been mighty difficult to get the AI to behave like a thalassocracy with Athens, but I'm wondering what difference the lack of their immobile ancestor has made. Any observations much appreciated.

To be honest, I haven't noticed Athens doing much, though part of that could be lack of embassies (I hadn't noticed many wars in general). I certainly didn't see them building many wonders - though partly because Sparta was gobbling them all up.

Technology and cash-wise, they were pretty much one of the forefront, though, and I felt that if I was to rely on any state for help in a war, they seemed like a pretty safe bet.

 

[iPwn]

Talking about observations from old version - take the city where Lokris has built their wonder, kill some redlined unit with agrothes = Golden Age for any civ. Extremly useful for all those who have GA too late to matter (Corinth, Thevai, Macedon, Thesally). Don`t know if this still works.

Observation number two - bardia was cheaper and because of that better unit than logchophoros, who cares about extra attack point for a defender? Again - don`t know what those units cost now.

By the way Elis is a very honorable civ, takes good city planning to squeeze in all 12 or so elean camps in that small area, then a well timed attack on Messenia to obtain their copper and tin. While at it - good trading is needed, or economy will let you down. Nothing like those cheesy messenians, who can just settle on spartan copper and that is it.

Right now playing first game in new version. I am about to enter 2nd era and I see that neither Corcyra nor Ithake has managed to build 2nd town yet. So maybe taking away Minoian ships from them was not such a great idea.

 

[Takhisis]

Hi, sorry for the silence, my email notifications are really erratic! Just got iPwn's, but was unaware of the other posts. I'll now answer everyone in turn.

A simple browser bookmark will do, check it once every few days: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=475490 will always lead you to the first unread post.

Glad you're liking the pedia entries. They took flippin' ages to do!

I did two or three. I can't imagine what it took to write all other hundreds. But soon I'll know.

Quick question relating to Takhisis's note on the missing Athens Ancestor: Did you notice Athens not performing quite as they should? Being a bit too shy to wage war, not building wonders, for example? As always, it's been mighty difficult to get the AI to behave like a thalassocracy with Athens, but I'm wondering what difference the lack of their immobile ancestor has made. Any observations much appreciated.

maybe extra ships? The AI always struggle with their naval capabilities in Civ3.

Thanks for spotting the Athens ancestor thing. I was running tests with them to check out various things and quite forgot to put the ancestor back!

I just added him back and changed the city names and lists for Thevai and Athinai.

For the sake of fun I'll check how things turn out without him.

 

[Rambuchan]

Virote:

Thanks for the prompt observations. The introduction of embassies is delayed to keep turn times down. Interesting that Sparta are gobbling Athens up. They'll always do that to someone though I am wondering how much the absence of an immobile is playing its part this time. Of course, I'll put the Ancestor back, but it's an interesting experiment. And, yes, Athens will always be in the forefront in terms of techs and cash. It's got to be that way!

iPwn:

Wow, I'm very impressed with how deeply you know and how much you've apparently played the game. Flattered too. Whilst I've put in and played through some of the things you've noted down, you've gone a lot further than I have. And that's why it's great to have you posting these ideas. Bloody good ones! Carry on and you'll rapidly become our resident Hegemon strategy guru.

On the Bardia / Logchophoros thing: Well, I've found it handy to have greater attacking potential with those guys. I've often taken out others with a stack of Logchophoros alone. But I guess others will have different playing styles. Don't think I changed the cost of those, so your technique would still work there. I'm just glad to hear that you're doing damage when playing with the weaker guys!

Corcyra & Ithaka: Well, it is historically appropriate that they are held back a bit, at least in AI hands. That was a concious decision as they were a bit too expansionist and frisky in the previous version. They should really be minor backwater civs, confined to their islands. That said though, Corcyra played a very significant part in the outbreak of the Peloponnesian War. I don't think it's at all possible to simulate how they did that, but I've described it in their Tribes pedia entry for those who are interested.

Takhisis:

I'm really grateful for your advice on how I use the internet. Don't know where I'd be without you . I think I've done everything I can with the naval activity, without moving into the realm of the absurd. The AI does mount good naval campaigns. Whether they're Cyclades or some of the more powerful civs, I've always witnessed naval invasions. So I'm happy with that. Athens have been given considerable assistance on this front with their special ships and UU, so yeah, anything more would be a tad absurd I think. Anyway, let me know what you find from your current play through.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Interesting that Sparta are gobbling Athens up. They'll always do that to someone though I am wondering how much the absence of an immobile is playing its part this time.

No, I meant that Sparta were gobbling up all the wonders

 

[Takhisis]

Virote:

Thanks for the prompt observations. The introduction of embassies is delayed to keep turn times down. Interesting that Sparta are gobbling Athens up. They'll always do that to someone though I am wondering how much the absence of an immobile is playing its part this time. Of course, I'll put the Ancestor back, but it's an interesting experiment. And, yes, Athens will always be in the forefront in terms of techs and cash. It's got to be that way!

I'm trying to ensure it is that way.

I'm really grateful for your advice on how I use the internet. Don't know where I'd be without you .

You'd be offline, of course.

I think I've done everything I can with the naval activity, without moving into the realm of the absurd. The AI does mount good naval campaigns. Whether they're Cyclades or some of the more powerful civs, I've always witnessed naval invasions. So I'm happy with that. Athens have been given considerable assistance on this front with their special ships and UU, so yeah, anything more would be a tad absurd I think. Anyway, let me know what you find from your current play through.

Yes, I'll try to see whether the Ancestor is essential or not to human gameplay.

 

[Takhisis]

This is a completely random tidbit, Ram. But… the civilopædia arrow colours, man. They dulled down whenever you can click on them to move to another page but brightened up when you can. It's a bit… odd.

Now a LESS random tibit… the diplo screens. The Ionians keep thinking they're Irish, saying 'Fáilte!' to me and mumbling about alcohol.

 

[Takhisis]

I've figured out a perhaps unforeseen consequence of the Ancestors: everyone who has one feels very strong, much like in Plotinus' Rood and Dragon scenario, immobile units that count for squat when attacking makes nations less susceptible to surrendering after they start losing cities -as well as making them more likely to attack people they can't beat. The Thebans are loath to surrender even if they have the one lonely attacker (an Akonistes surrounded by several Logchophoroi) and I've already burned down one of their cities without any casualties on my side so far. I'll just have to wear them down some more.


Oh… Homoioi… is that the plural or the singular?

 

[Rambuchan]

I've figured out a perhaps unforeseen consequence of the Ancestors: everyone who has one feels very strong

That's far from an unforeseen consequence. That is the whole point of the immobile ancestor unit. It's an old, simple, but very effective technique to get bold AI behaviour.

I'll respond to the other points later.

 

[Takhisis]

So you actually meant for the AI to send in a column of Polemistes+Akonistes+Toxotai? Well, they're all easily killable by the Attic Logchophoroi and my own naked-men, so… thanks for the combat experience.
I've begun to expand overseas, I'm trying to gain a foothold on Thassos or another similar far-off colony (I think I should try for Delos like last game, that way I also have a beachhead to destroy the Kykladitai). The idiots won't surrender. So I 'surrendered' to them and got two techs by selling two enemies (Ætolia and Thevai) the same tech.

The Dodecanesioi have built two temples and are leading the wonder race. Those people are kicking arse down there. btw methinks they should be spelled with a k.

 

[Takhisis]

The 'pedia still needs some work. There's broken links about the place. The fixed resources are beautiful (yes, I've discovered Episema) and so is the music.

I've taken Samos, Delos and Thassos, bu the Chalkideis have edged me out of the Pangaion Mines with their local equivalent of culture.

It was nice of you to include Vuldacon's supporters in the game.

Oh, and El Justo says hi.

 

[dragonprobably]

There seems to be a problem in my game. If you play as Ithake, you can't get Odysseus and his men onto the boats.

 

[Rambuchan]

Hi MartinLuther. Thanks for DLing and playing.

Regarding your problem, I must say I'm stumped. I was able to load them in the boats just fine when designing that aspect and test playing. And others seem to be loading them in the ships just fine too. Maybe someone else has some ideas why MartinLuther is having trouble?

 

[pvincent100]

Hi, been playing this just a bit - I must say the attention to detail is excellent - it has had a great amount of thought put into it and I am really enjoying it. My only observation (not a critic ), I am starting as Athens - Greece seems to have an abundance of resources.... maybe there should be less number of resources so seafaring (& hence large number of Greek colonies/cities) need to be founded. I almost pretty sure that those colonies wee sustainable at about 1,000 people... delivering resources back to the Capital but essentially vulnerable to raiding, not sure how this sits with game play, but new cities with restricted population growth and less number of resources would allow for faster expansion and more wars - which I think was pretty much ancient Greece all over

But very very good stuff, I love it

 

[PiotrG]

Maybe someone else has some ideas why MartinLuther is having trouble?

You can not load the boat, you need to Penteconter

On the boat can not load anything

This is strange, because as Odysseus in Troy swam to the boat if you can not?

 

[iPwn]

Looks like Euboia has recieved lot of love in this version - however I am unable to build that thing which needs granary+wines+marble+coastal location+town that is not capital.
And some old confusing stuff - what is wrong with the way AI evaluates bronze working? It costs close to nothing, in their 'opinion'. If somebody has monopoly on it, it can be bought for like 200 gold. If it is not a monopoly, price drops down to less than 100. Naturally, if I research it, I cannot sell it well either. Could it be that AI thinks this bronze working is the same thing as bronze working from unmodded conquests, which is indeed a very cheap tech?

Alright, figured out how to get that Naxos wonder - turns out it also needs a harbor, pedia does not say that. But now I have a problem with their other wonder, Rhegion. That is by far the best wonder in game, try building it and see what it really does. And probably fix it , too

 

[Virote_Considon]

Re: Ithake's boats: I took them back to Ithake and upgraded them before I went and rescued Odysseus.