Hegemon

[Takhisis]

I've made peace with everyone and just on the last war of the turn of the Lydoi war the Spartiatai asstards have invaded me.
I've taken a Lydoi island and another form Epeiros btw.

Spoiler :

341 BC
We are at war with Epeiros, Lydia, Aetolia, Kerkyra, Thevai and Troia.
We have 45976 Tribute points to Lydia's 37928 and Sparte's 37218.

Three Champions, six Hoplites, two Logchophoroi, four Toxotai and four Xiphomakoi are at the gate of Plataia.
We take our Libation Wine out of the city just in case, then we destroy their three Champions by using our javelins to force the Hoplites to retreat and our Thureophoros to take the lead at the chrage against them.
We are one turn away from Exploration and we shall thus earn 784 gold from our regular sources of revenue.
We therefore decide we can afford to spend 400 Talents hurrying a Sanctuary in Thorai on the gulf of Korynth and a Gymnasium in Chíos.

We send spies into Onchismos and we find four fithers of the Akonistes class and a Gymnitos. The only construction of significance is an altar. So our guidance could evidently result in great benefits for these poor islanders. Since their masters in the southern Ægean have decided to declare war on us, now it is time to bring progress and freedom to these people, whether they like it or not.

The Thettaloi are convinced by the moronic Kerkyraioi to attack us!
And another three Cimmerians are dropped on Léros.

340 BC
Exploration will now enable us to build Navarch Triremes. While more expensive than the Imperial Triremes, we'll get superior firepower in the Nótioi Spórades.
Two of the Galleys in Patmos are upgraded to Navarch Triremes. The Lydoi had better watch out.

The Spartiatai have now trained the Thorakites.

339BC
We commence to fight the Aetolioi and Boeotioi combined.
We take down all four of the Boeotian hoplites threatening our newly acquired city, lose one Thureophoros in the process.

The Imperial and Navarch Triremes give us quite an edge in naval strategy. We can actually run through a blockade or intercept inbound transports at some points.
But we've also lost a Navarch Trireme. Zajebi! Still, a pure warship against four Lydoi and an Aetolian is a good haul.

Thevai declares war on Lydia. WTF? Lydia and us at the same time? Then Elis joins them against Lydia.
Three Cimmerians at Furnoi and another two dumped on Eretria. Grrr.
Two Messenian naked-men appear on the hills north-west of Nemea!

338BC
We position another Confederate column on Orchomenos, just in case the Spartiatai suffer from chronic backstabbing disorder.
Then we cash in another four Taxation coffers from Pangaion.

It's really amazing how that 2 bombardment strength effectively turns the Gymnitos into moving artillery and general all-around support.
We lose an archer attacking Kibotos2 (Seirena)

Ithake declares war on Lydia who makes peace with Dodekanesa.
Then Chersonesos joins in against Lydia. The Chersonesioi actually have built settlements across in Asia!
Makedonia signs a peace treaty with Lydia.

We pluck Drama Theory from someone. Yay, Amphitheatres!
Three Cimmerians on Patmos.

337BC
Amidst the fighting north of Patmos comes a new leader: Perikles!

We scout ahead after destroying a few other Aetolians and reconnoiter by ship. We realise that the Aetolians are attacking us with mostly a lot of Toxotai, a couple Champions/Xiphomakoi, and little else.

We take 18 gold from the Messenians as war reparations. Then the crapsters sign a trade embarog against us!
Dodekanesa signa trade embargo against us. Hmph.

We complete our navigational research, now we'll go for tactics and cavalry.

336BC
We sign peace treaty with Troia. We again deal with pesky Cimmerians on Furnoi and a few Aetolians on Boeotia.

Karia declares war on Lydia.

War weariness kicks in

335BC
We make peace with the Thevaioi. Plataia is enough and widening the front against both Thessalia and Aetolia would be foolish.

The Spartiatai press us for Tribute. Horses? Meh. We agree to pay.

334BC
Tribute: 50226 to 39793 (Lydia) and 38976 (Sparte).

333BC
We take the city of Onchismos on the island of Gyáros, a possession of the King of Epeiros.
The Thettaloi are invading with Gymnitoi, Prodromoi and strangely clad riders. No match for Athenian bronze, these weaklings are.

Sadly, the Lydoi have taken all of the colonies the Chersonesioi had built on the Bosporus.

Daaaamn! The Illyrioi and Makedonai sign an MPP.

332BC
We make peace with the Thettaloi and Epeirotai at no monetary costs or gains to us, and we get 75 Talents from the Aetolioi in exchange for peace terms.
War-related discontent decreases from 40% to 25% of the population in some cities.

Column of naked-men defeated at the gates of Kebrene on the isle of Imro.
We detect a Spartan Akonistes on the isle of Sámos. Poor Spartans, so tough and so brave, but do destroyable by the Cimmerian cavalry.

Elis declares war on Epeiros. Lol!

331BC We are now at peace with the Kerkyraidiotoi.
An attack on Hieropolis (Northern Ikaria) is defeated.

Thevai declare war on Epeiros!

330BC
Lydia make peace with Elis and Sparte.

329BC
52538 to Lydia's 40230!
The Lydoi are now resorting to hit-and-run tactics, i.e. attacking with amphibious Hypaspists.


327BC
We destroy the pitiful single Asian Warrior the Lydoi have dumpedon Astypálaia.

326BC
We take the pathetically-defended city of Eumenia2

The Spartiatai have dropped hree Gymnitoi on the isle of Skyros. War with the Dorian scum now appears to be past the stage of inevitability. We anticipate this by switching all production to the Thorakites.

325BC
58 Talent and a World Map from the Lydoi is a good bargain for peace even though we'd like more for all the pain they have caused.
But further terms include us giving them access to Prophets while they give us Lydians, Aiolians, Amber and Opium.
To avoid further trouble, the population of Eumenia2 is evicted and their deserted island is now the home of settlers from Aphidnai on the Kyklades.

The Spartiatai want Tactics in exchange for a measly World Map. Go screw, Leonidas!

We are ONE turn away from completing Alexander's Conquests. Free barracks!

After peace with the Lydoi is announced, all major cities celebrate the victory and their love for the Strategos! Alas, this triumph is short-lived as the Spartiatai being attacking our homeland.
And now? What will happen?
We share fronts at the Peloponnessos, the Corinthian isthmus, our northern borders at Boeotia are threatened by their multiple ROPs, Chalkidiké should probably best be abandoned even though the dry dock is of great value for the Pangaion convoys, and the Spórades and Kyklades are a disjointed patchwork of cities. Mostly divided into the East for us and the West for them.
Better to bribe as many people as possible onto our side and fight a defensive war until the convoys bring us victory.
We have 54816 Tribute to Sparte's 40594 and Lydia's 40580. And 4216 Talents in the piggy bank, with only Steel to be researched. And we have Alexander's conquests. We can do this!

I have a long weekend. I'll send you the four entries together.

 

[Kitomakazu]

The thing to remember about the way Troia, Karia and Sparte play is that this is an historical scenario.

I spent many many hours test playing and tweaking the AI to behave in the way these civs did in history. So I'll just lay out some of the history and rationale behind the design. I hope it'll explain why they play the way they do, as has been observed recently, and why I'm unlikely to change it.

-snip-

I have downloaded your Hedgemon and frankly... I was dreaming of making my own ancient greek mod and you have driven me to both jealousy and to surprise. Your take on how things were set in the game is rather different than mine, so it was interesting to peek into it.

First civ that I tried, I wanted a fairly strong civ that was neither Athens or Sparta (too easy as a top dog, and it's like picking to play Great Britain in AoI to me). So I carefully examined what was roughly available to various civs. Took me a while before I settled on Thebes at Regent level (I could have picked Monarch instead, heh).

I'm surprised how much I was able to run over everybody else in extreme ease. Granted, I had built gymnastics very early in my towns and with the Temple of Ares, it was easy to pile up a horde of veteran Gymintos as either an useful tool to soften up some of the stronger enemies or to blitz the weaker ones mercilessly. I have stopped playing that save for a while (although I could keep going but with some self-imposed restrictions such as staying in Tyranny instead of switching out to a better govt, we shall see).

I decided to try one of the less civilized folks. I didn't wanted to play Thrace (they have the best settler, which would make it too easy for me to out-expand everybody else before a serious confrontation comes to blows), so I choose:
Bithynia

Ouch... it's quite a different world in a distant corner now. It seems either Thrace wants to cross the strait and take me down or I have to tiptoe around Phrygia with their speedy (and numerous) units. I find it frustrating that my starting location is extremely poor. I'm referring not to the lower number of bonus and strategic resources. I wouldn't mind bloody fighting for limited space or resources that are hard to get to. What I do get irate about is the way I start at the end of a small but somewhat lengthy peninsula and I don't have access to timber for even a tiny canoe to toss a couple of settlers around. I do understand that you intend for Bithynia to struggle in this game, but is it really necessary to force the player (or AI) to march around a gulf in order to settle into the Asia Minor?

Mind you, I'm just wondering what you had in mind when you designed the Bithynia's starting location (and the surrounding terrain). I'm also curious about your take on Bithynia. You already talked about Troy (Troias) and Karia being dying civs (so thus represented with very weak starting spots). From what I have looked at in the Wikipedia, both Bithynia and Caria (Karia) folded and became parts of Lydia's empire (and then the Persia's after that) and not at times too far apart, I think.

Is Bithynia basically already waning before coming into your mod?


I know I type some posts that can be rather long, but I still want to add one other thing: Your Pedia.
I know you are still working on it and there are things to be fixed (in fact, I wouldn't mind helping you out once the final exams and reports are all done soon). I'm just saying you really should provide some sort of an introduction or a tutorial to help people get an overview of your design. With 30-something choices to pick from, I would love to have some basic advice like I found in AoI. Something like "Pick an Imperial Power!" which explains the difference between a colonial and non-colonial power, would go along very nicely in this.

Some terminology was a bit tricky to pick up and if I didn't already have some limited familiarity with geography and history of various peoples in the Greek world I wouldn't know what Anatolian or Attic is. It's just my opinion, but there should be some groupings and a strategic article should be made for those groupings in the Pedia.

Something like "Useful Advice for a ruler of _____(Anatolians, etc)"

Anatolian (or Asian) Civs
Thraican Civs
Macedonian/Thessalian -- They are sorta similar in the theme of power in mounted troops
Peloponnese Civs --or something else if you consider Thebes and Athens as sorta a part or distant cousins of those Pelpo in terms of power or culture)
Western Civs -- or maybe Aeolian in broader terms? or Central as in combination with Delphos(Phokis)?
Islander Civs

If you have this stuff already coming up for the next update, disregard my suggestion then, . If you haven't considered it, please do. It helps getting people hooked into your creation faster and deeper (at least for me, a well-written Pedia have been very conductive for me to like somebody's mod without fail).

I can image Herodotus commenting on how a ruler should or shouldn't lead his tribe. It's up to you.

This is a nice game of Ancient Greek immersion even if it's not quite 100 percent finished. I don't know if I should even bother making my mod in the future since you are covering the same general era (but slightly greater in area) as my idea. I don't mind helping you polish and finish this and I don't have to do my idea in any case, I suppose.

 

[Takhisis]

Something like "Useful Advice for a ruler of _____(Anatolians, etc)"

This is what'll be included in many of those. Did you read the sample entries for Argives (Argos) and Diarchy above?

 

[Rambuchan]

Takhisis

Very good game report. You're doing well. If you can manage to avoid any disasters and/or foolish decisions, then there is no reason why a Tribute Victory can't be yours. But the AI does usually mount last ditch attempts to unseat those running close to victory. As I say at the very beginning of the scenario: The Gods are jealous of he who grows too prosperous...

Good news on those pedia entries too. I've been making good progress with these myself (more below), so please post which you intend to do so there's no overlap.

Kitomakazu

Very good to hear from you. Feedback and comment from players is an essential element in making a good scenario for the community. So thank you for posting.

You mention that you had a different take on things. Can you elaborate? I'm curious, it may be useful for me and others and, though at quite an advanced stage, I might be able to include some of your thinking, which would save you the hard work!

I understand how things were perhaps a bit too easy with Thebes. That's why I've now included a 'Power Comparison & Difficulty Guidance' page in the Pedia. More on that below. You really went to the other extreme in choosing Bithynia though! Here is some of the rationale and background to their design:

Bithynia aren't supposed to be an easy civ to play. Though I did managed to wreak havoc in Asia Minor whilst test playing with them (hordes of Peltasts...) I did find it difficult to stay in the tech race thereafter and helm that larger empire. As you've read, that's more or less how it should be for them: A menace to be swallowed, rather than a great power in waiting.

In terms of their starting location, there is a clear rationale, which connects with their actual historical journey. When I first started making the scenario, their starting location was at the hinge between that peninsula and the mainland. Basically, that set them up too well. They mauled Phrygia too many times and became too much of a player in Asia Minor, rather than the peripheral one they should be. So I moved them to their current start location and this put them on the right rails of destiny and achieved the right balance of power in Asia Minor. Although getting round that peninsula may be a little frustrating, it does hold them back a little bit in the early stages, enough to ensure others get ahead in the meantime. I wouldn't use the word 'frustrating' though. It's more like an early project to work towards and it doesn't take that long get set up into Asia Minor.

There is also a very precise historical reference and reason why I went for that starting spot: In Book IV (143), Herodotus mentions that Darius, when asked which of his possessions he would like multiplied to a number as great as the number of seeds in a pomegranate, he replies: Megabazus, his commander in Europe. This is because this man was very shrewd indeed and Herodotus illustrates his wisdom by a comment he made regarding the locations of the cities of Chalcedon and Byzantion: "he was in Byzantium, and on hearing that Chalcedon was settled seventeen years earlier than that city, he said the men of Chalcedon must have been blind at the time; for if they had eyes, they would never have chosen an inferior site, when a much finer one lay ready to hand." So it seemed fitting to set those two cities up in opposition from each other across that strait. As for Bithynia and Thrace's lack of early Timber for ships, that's largely down to gameplay. If they got it then they'd expand into ahistorical lands and tear each other up too early. That would upset the direction, focus and empire that Thrace needs to build.

As for the Pedia, I have made great strides with this. As per your request, I have already included two guidance pages. Let me know if there's anything else you think ought to be included in them:

1) 'Introduction to My Inquiry': This is linked to at the bottom of the very first message box that displays when the scenario starts. This intro page covers the following areas:

~ Use of Language - why there's Greek in some places and English in others.
~ Power comparison & difficulty guidance (see below)
~ Trading - Pointing out that Trade Ports connect the islands, not harbours; your Capital is the Trading Hub for the whole empire; immediate trading upon contact is possible.
~ Wonders - Categorising them into Olympian Temple Wonders, League Wonders, Colony Wonders (you don't have those in the version you're playing), Great People Wonders and Civ Unique Wonders.
~ Resources - Special notes on Tribal Resources & the Resource Bug.
~ Importance of Tribute
~ Absent Friends - How the limitations of the device used to display my inquiry meant excluding Persia & Rome and Megala Hellas (Magna Graecia) and how I have compensated for this.

I had also included a paragraph on military guidance, which highlighted the 'skirmisher' unit class and also how civs get powerful units at certain stages of the game and not others. I took this out though because it soon becomes obvious what those skirmishers are and how to use them (the unit pedia entries explain well enough) and, upon reflection, I thought it's fairly obvious that some civs are more powerful than others and have periods of glory and misery within the timeline.

2) 'Power Comparison & Difficulty Guidance'

This page categorises the civs as I have done in the opening posts of this thread, namely into: Top Flight Greeks, Mainland Greeks, Barbaroi, Asian Kingdoms, Greeks in Asia Minor & Island Greeks. I list all the civs in their respective categories and I also offer difficulty level guidance based on a player's usual level eg. +1-2 levels, -2-3 levels.

As Takhisis has pointed out, I also include some gameplay and strategy advice for each civ. This appears at the end of the second, description page of each Tribe entry.

Finally, geography: You probably noticed that I have marked the map itself with region names such as Attika, Boeotia, Gulf of Corinth etc. That's for guidance, assistance and aesthetics too. I would hope and expect that players would find a map of the area and look into and learn more about the regions anyway.

 

[Takhisis]

Takhisis

Very good game report. You're doing well. If you can manage to avoid any disasters and/or foolish decisions, then there is no reason why a Tribute Victory can't be yours. But the AI does usually mount last ditch attempts to unseat those running close to victory. As I say at the very beginning of the scenario: The Gods are jealous of he who grows too prosperous...

This feels like Milan-Liverpool in 2007: keep the distance and continue scoring even though they'll chip in. I'll just clamp down, thankfully I'd bunkerised (i.e. barricaded) most of my borders with Sparta and they're wasting time pillaging through those. I'll pelt anything that comes with my Gymnitoi and will probably abandon our outpost in Chalkidiké -the conquest of the island of psará has left the Sartans with no harbour on the Spórades, and in the Kyklades we'll just have to fight it out.

Good news on those pedia entries too. I've been making good progress with these myself (more below), so please post which you intend to do so there's no overlap.

I checked how many more I've got to do and there are still about 8 of those. They take a long time to do well. So how about some tribes entries for the following to start with: Dodekanese (your favourites!)*, Bithynia, Ithake and Messenia?

Those four. I'd like to have some info on which UUs you're giving each, I might work in some stuff for a bit of colour. If you've done one of those but have another one undone then post it!

 

[iPwn]

Thebes, right. I forgot to talk about my experience with those guys. I know I could just change their color in editor, but maybe I am not the only one who is hating on their color. They are one of the 4 league civs and as such a very atractive choice, is it obligatory to have pink color for them? It is bad for eyes, they just hurt after staring at my `pink panthera ` empire for several hours. Please give them some less agressive color.

 

[Takhisis]

^Thebes would do well in some shade of green IMO.

 

[Rambuchan]

Milan-Liverpool in 2007

One of THE best football games. Ever.

Those four. I'd like to have some info on which UUs you're giving each, I might work in some stuff for a bit of colour. If you've done one of those but have another one undone then post it!

I've now done Messenia. Go for Ailoia instead please. They have a new UU called the Arbitrator. Your historical readings on them will soon unearth why they have such a UU. Dodekanese I'm afriad is still with the old Minoan Galley. Ithake have a funky new UU, part of that mini-game-within-a-game, which plays on Homer's great work involving a certain - very long - return home. Bithynia now have the Triballi Axeman, another of the many Thracian sub-tribes.

iPwn - There are two good reasons why Thebes are pink: 1) It stands out from the colours around them, so it's clear who has what land. 2) They are, afterall, the civ which brought us The Sacred Band...

 

[Takhisis]

One of THE best football games. Ever.

Hmm… a 2-1 with Milan winning and holding back before a Liverpool onslaught? Well, yes… but I prefer offensive football (even if they equalised with 10 men ).

I've knocked off this one tonight for starters:

Spoiler :

#RACE_DODEKANESA
^"Praise the sea maid, daughter of Aphrodite, bride of Helios (the Sun), this isle of Rhodes." - Pindar, Olympian Ode
^The Dodecanesioi are $LINK<seafaring and expansionist=GCON_Strengths>.
^
^They start the game with
$LINK<Tools=TECH_Tools> and and build the $LINK<Minoan Galley=PRTO_Minoan_Galley> as their unique unit, instead of the normal $LINK<Curragh=PRTO_Curragh>.
^
^Their unique wonder is the $LINK<Dorian Hexapolis=BLDG_Dorian_Hexapolis>. They build no Tribal Camp.
^
^They prefer Monarchy and despise Imperialism.
^
^(1100 characters)The Dodecanese (literally '{twelve islands}') are a group of 12 larger plus 150 smaller Greek islands in the Aegean Sea, of which 26 are inhabited. This island group generally defines the eastern limit of the Sea of Crete. They belong to the Southern Spórades island group.
Pindar describes the island of Rhodes itself to have come of the union of Helios and a nymph called Rhode, the daughter of the sea-god Poseidon and the sea-goddess Amphitrite.
These islands and the neighbouring coasts of Asia have been settled by Dorians who expelled their previous Mycænean occupiers who'd ousted the Minoans in turn, and they occupy the islands to this day.

^These islands, by their geographical location, have always been exposed to the attacks of both the Minoans from Krete as well as invaders from the Asian mainland, whether they be Karians, Phrygians or the now-extinct Hittites.
^This is why the Dorian invaders had to set up an alliance between their cities (unlike their Doric kinsmen in Peloponessus) known as the Dorian Hexapolis&#8230;

#DESC_RACE_DODEKANESA
^&#8230;this Hexapolis consisted of the cities of Kamiros, Ialysos and Lindos on the island of Rhodes itself, Knidos and Halikarnassos on the Karian coast, and Kos, the island city-state to the north.
The members of this hexapolis were accustomed to celebrate a festival, with games, on the Triopian promontory near Knidos, in honour of the Triopian Apollo; the prizes in those games were brazen tripods, which the victors had to dedicate in the temple of Apollo; and Halikarnassos was struck out of the league, because one of her citizens carried the tripod to his own house before dedicating it in the temple of Apollo. The hexapolis thus became the Doric Pentapolis
^
^And so it was that the cities on the island of Rhodes joined to found a new city named after the island itself which became a busy trading port and one of the dominant cities on the South-eastern Ægean.
They traded with the East and the West, with the Aiolians and Ionians farther north up the coast, with the Kretans, with the peoples of Asia, and with Ph&#339;nicians coming from Tyre and Sidon, and the people of Cyprus.
While Rhodes never had a powerful land army, their fleets were renowned commercial and cultural reputation always grew, thanks in part to their wise policy of not participating in the struggles of the mainland Greeks.
They had great writers and scientists, and they even managed to rival Ptolemaic Alexandria in these endeavours. However, they were never enough of a military power, although their heroic defence against Demetrios the Besieger should be considered as one of the greatest examples of defensive siegecraft of their time.
^^~~0~~
^
^{My Counsel:} The fleets are the key. You don't have much space for expansion on Rhodes itself so shipping out settlers is the only option. Your land troops will not be very strong so you should never attempt to conquer anything but shore cities, so trade and Tribute is the only real way to achieve a victory. Beware the Asian invaders.

I think it needs polishing but, well, it's Sunday night.

 

[Takhisis]

It only took six years, we lost no cities to the Spartans, never had to use our leader, never an army nor a smithy used, and we actually took three of their island colonies from them.

Spoiler :

324BC
We start on the offensive. A ship with 3× Miktos Toxotes and one Hypaspist takes the island port of Prausiai (Psará) to remove the Spartiatai's only island harbour in the Spórades at the cost of our Hypaspist's life. Let's hope this can cripple their numerous though thankfully slow fleets.

One of our spies successfully infiltrates the Spartan military. The operation only requires the spending of 84 Talents.

We destroy the troops on Skyros. Gymnitoi, hear us laugh.

The Thevaioi and the Lydoi insist that we are trespassing upon their territory. We coutneract by getting into Mutual protection Pacts with both powers.
Soon enough, a failed attack by the Spartiatai causes both nations to join our fight. Unfortunately this means we're again atwar with the Ithakes.

323BC
We strike again in the Kretan sea and deprive the SPartiatai of their naval base there, the port of Epidamnos Limera on the island of Anáfe.

The AI is really an Idiot. I have a friggan' city on the island of Aigina and I use it as a naval base with Navarch Triremes and they send a troop transport into the Saronic Gulf from Korinthos.

Then we cash in another convoy from Thássos.

56622 to Sparte's 40744 and Lydia's 40592 at end of turn.

We accidentally sign an ROP treaty with the Messenians. Oh well.
Sparte convinces the Kerkyraidiotai to again declare war on us. Those people never give up, it would seem.
The Ithakes then attack Psará (and fail to take the island) and so make the Thevaioi declare war on them.
The Thrakai and us sign a Right of Passage Treaty.
The Ithakes drop five Gymnitoi on Skyros.

322BC
We first annihilate the Ithakes at the gates of Porthmos.
Then we spot 9× Gymnitos escorting a Hypaspist just south-west of Orchomenos. We take the Hypaspist down with a Hippeis just in from the Klerouchos via Imperial Trireme.

We liberate the port of Schoenos (isle of Kythnos) from its filthy Doric oppressors!

The Kerkyraioi attempt to ambush a Navarch Trireme carrying a Libation Wine and a Temple Offering. They fail although our ship will limp in for repairs at the nearest port (either Rhamnos or Anaphlystos)
The Lydoi eliminate the Karieis who brought so much trouble to all the Greek peoples with their scheming, meddlesome diplomats.
The Dodekanesioi throw in their lot with their Dorian kinsmen from Sparte and attack the Lydoi.
The Kretai join Ithaka in a trade embargo against us.
The Spartiatai drop off two Ekdromoi and an Akonistes on Andros, and an Akonistes and Gymnitos on Kythnos.

The resistance mmovements in Schoenos, Prausiai and Epidamnos Limera end!
As Kyklades has attacked Lydia, we are back at war with the remnants of their kingdom in Náxos. The same happens with the Dodekanesioi.

321BC
We destroy the invaders on Andros (a really fortified island with Champions, Heroes and Thorakitai) and on Schoenos. We also take down four ships that had escorted those troops in.

A column is trying to make its way past Orchomenos to Athens. We attack with Champions and a misplaced Confederate column and take down a Spartan Hoplite and a Hypaspist. Nonetheless, the bluk of their advancing army is unscathed, with 7× Thorakites, 4 Champions and three Spartan Heroes.
We also capture a Libation Wine and a Temple Offerings the Spartiatai were trying to sneak past our defenses! It took us three years to capture them as the two Thorakites trudged down the coast and our javelineers pelted them with everything while barely scracthing them.

Lydia have 7 oaths of Fealty to 6 of ours.
57910 Tribute to 42038 to 40868. Lydia's lagging behind Sparte!

Dodekanesa drops off a Gymnitos and Polemistes on Syros. The garrison at Thorikos watches amusedly.
Thevai declares war on both Kyklades and Dodekanesa.

320BC
We cash in six more various treasures including the two captured ones from the Spartiates.
We continue our amphibious attacks on Syphnos, taking down another three defenders. The best defender is now a Gymnitos!

We continue taking a pot at anything we can bring down. Ships, infantry, cavalry, transports, archers, whatever floats our trasure boat.

Epeiros joins Dodekanesa against us. Wtf?
We sign an ROP with the Illyrioi.
The Ithakes have talked the Makedonai into declaring war on Lydia!

319BC
We start at 59620 to Sparte's 42444 and Lydia's 41456.

We get to fight around the place, we win some and lose some, including capturing a Spartan Tribute in Thessalia (how does the AI land a single Spartan Hero next to one of my city garrisoned with Hoplites and a Hippeis, I'll never know). and this drives the Tribute score to 60162 to Sparte's 42458, Lydia's 41456 and Makedonia's 25798.

VICTORY! It's still called a Victory Point Victory but it just needs a script tweak.
47 hours, 30 minute and 50 seconds.
We discover Steel. All the money will go to publica shows for the people.

In your face, Dorian scum!

 

[Kitomakazu]

-snip-

If you have this stuff already coming up for the next update, disregard my suggestion then, . If you haven't considered it, please do. It helps getting people hooked into your creation faster and deeper (at least for me, a well-written Pedia have been very conductive for me to like somebody's mod without fail).

I can image Herodotus commenting on how a ruler should or shouldn't lead his tribe. It's up to you.

-snip-

Well there you go, disregard this whole blather on my part.

Anyway, Ram, thanks for the explanation for Bith. And don't worry about the geography. I was just referring to it as a way to classify civs into groups for strategic advice. Now that I see you intend to add the advice as the last word of the civs' descriptions, there's no point in doing those general group advice articles in the Game Concepts section of Pedia.

As for my take on how to scenario-ize Ancient Greece... er... my idea was still in the forming process. I haven't even gotten to the part of making a biq file. I doubt you would be able to put my basic core concept into your game since you already have the Greek leagues being put in as a wonder/improvement system.


-snip-

Er... a long post and it only clutters up this thread. I'm putting this into a PM to you, Ram. Feel free to share in here if you think it would be best.

 

[Rambuchan]

Takhisis - Not a bad effort on the pedia entry. But what happened to all that commercial history about Rhodes you said you were reading about?

Congrats on your victory. Smooth job in the end! After that experience, any summarising comments and notes for improvement?

Kitomakazu - OK. Got your PM. Will respond in a bit.

 

[Takhisis]

Those'll come in the weekend. I'll review my own progress reports.

But Athens isn't and never should be taken as a land power, even if/when they do get Champions and the Thureophoros and such. You're basically bottled up in Attica.

P.S. I could fill in a questionnaire if you feel like it.

P.P.S.: I'll see about the entries later. Commercial law and Cotnracts are subjects that should be taken out of this career.

 

[Rambuchan]

Those'll come in the weekend. I'll review my own progress reports.

Great! Looking forward to those!

P.P.S.: I'll see about the entries later. Commercial law and Cotnracts are subjects that should be taken out of this career.

Not sure what you mean. Earlier in the thread you mentioned that you'd been doing a lot of reading about Rhodes and its role in the region's commercial history. That's what I was hoping to read about in the Dodekanese entry you've posted.

 

[Takhisis]

Great! Looking forward to those!

Not sure what you mean. Earlier in the thread you mentioned that you'd been doing a lot of reading about Rhodes and its role in the region's commercial history. That's what I was hoping to read about in the Dodekanese entry you've posted.

I'd been doing a lot reading on commercial law and stumbled across the mention of the Rhodian laws eventually becoming a standard throughout the Roman Empire. I got the book again at the faculty library yesterday, so yay!

 

[Takhisis]

I've realised that at least in my version the Attic Logchophoros was not in the Champion's list of valid Stealth Attack targets. So, if there was a single Polemistes alive, the Logchophoros escorting him was untouchable! I've edited it now, but this might have been why the Ai always went after my Champions in the early stages of the game. Still, I hadn't realised until I got the Champions in the present Theban run.

One quickie strategic observation (more to come in the future): Thevai and Athinai cannot coexist. They both choke on each other. Whoever gets to subjugate the Eubaeis first pracitcaly ensures they can take on the other.
If you're Thevai, you need to expand southwards fast. The Phokeis and Thettaloi don't move southwards by much as they can always move north but the Atheniaoi do move north, simply because there's nowhere else to go. Heh, that's another one. Everyone tends to move north. And planting cities everywhere is completely stupid as the Ai tends to declare war even when it's very stupid. In my present game with Thevai the Makedonai came out of nowhere with half-a-dozen Paeonian Skirmishers and took one of my cities while I was at war with the Attic imbeciles. What happened? I made peace with Perikles, trounced the Macedonians, recovered my city with a Gymnitos and Logchophoros, and just two turns after I'd kicked their arses the Athenians invaded me again! And they'd just surrendered a city on Phokis -a harbour just to the north of Euboia- to me!

Do you want me to upload all the savegames from the Athenian campaign in a bunch? Would make for great progress checks if you run it in debug mode, also checking the tech advancement.

Also, now with Thevai I'm suffering from having a non-Navy. Everyone gets everywhere faster than I do. I'll just have to conquer Korynthos to put a stop to all those silyl colonies in the Kyklades stealing my tribute. I'm ahead of the rest of Greece by over three thousand points, but the Lydoi have taken out Aiolia and are marching up already.

That's another one: Aiolia always dies first.

 

[Rambuchan]

Yes, I'm aware of the Champion's target list issue. Basically, after adding all those new units, I forgot to go and alter the stealth attack targets lists to include them. I'm experiencing the same with my current test game with Lydia. In one siege I only had the option to attack the douloi in the city, whereas I couldn't touch the Mercenary Hoplites keeping the city itself. Of course, it is now fixed!

Regarding Thebes vs. Athens: Well, they never really saw eye to eye. Very much a case of rivalry based on proximity. However, there are various strategies to employ other than racing to take Eubeoa.

Though I'm grateful for your offer, there's no point in uploading save games. The upgraded version has advanced considerably from the version you're playing; civ behaviour tweaks have happened (for just one of many: Macedonia now really expands at an alarming and more historical rate), tech costs have been bumped considerably already, plus loads of other things. That's not to say observations in thread aren't useful though.

As for Thebes and their lack of navy: It is possible to raise a Theban navy and settle islands, should you want to. The AI have managed it in my current test game.

Aiolia getting crushed every time: I've noticed this too. It's not ideal. I'll ponder on what can be done. If you have any suggestions that don't involve making them an early power (they should only blossom later) then I'm all ears.

Regarding Pedia entries: I'm now onto the Unique Civ wonders section. I'm getting some gold down. 2 down, some 34 to go!

 

[Takhisis]

Give the Aiolians an Ancestor.

Or, if you want, a 'city walls' unit.

Amended entry:

Spoiler :

#DESC_RACE_DODEKANESA
^&#8230;this Hexapolis consisted of the cities of Kamiros, Ialysos and Lindos on the island of Rhodes itself, Knidos and Halikarnassos on the Karian coast, and Kos, the island city-state to the north.
The members of this hexapolis were accustomed to celebrate a festival, with games, on the Triopian promontory near Knidos, in honour of the Triopian Apollo; the prizes in those games were brazen tripods, which the victors had to dedicate in the temple of Apollo; and Halikarnassos was struck out of the league, because one of her citizens carried the tripod to his own house before dedicating it in the temple of Apollo. The hexapolis thus became the Doric Pentapolis
^
^And so it was that the cities on the island of Rhodes joined to found a new city named after the island itself which became a busy trading port and one of the dominant cities on the South-eastern Ægean.
They traded with the East and the West, with the Aiolians and Ionians farther north up the coast, with the Kretans, with the peoples of Asia, and with Ph&#339;nicians coming from Tyre and Sidon, and the people of Cyprus.
While Rhodes never had a powerful land army, their fleets were renowned commercial and cultural reputation always grew, thanks in part to their wise policy of not participating in the struggles of the mainland Greeks.
The Rhodians developed a set of maritime trade laws from earlier Ph&#339;nician laws that gradually became the [de facto] official normative of Mediterranean Greek-controlled sea trade and were eventually adopted [de iure] by the Roman Empire under Antoninus Pius in AD 138.
As great as their cultural, commercial and scientific achievements were, the Rhodians were never great soldiers, although the defence of their city against Demetrios the Besieger earned them great renown.
^^~~0~~
^
^{My Counsel:} The fleets are the key. You don't have much space for expansion on Rhodes itself so shipping out settlers is the only option. Your $LINK<troops=PRTO_Ionian_Hoplite> aren't that strong so you should never attempt to conquer anything but shore cities, so trade and Tribute is the only real way to achieve a victory. Beware the Asian invaders.

(I hate space constraints, should be a scroll-down, same as in web browsers. Hope it fits!)

 

[Rambuchan]

Good job on the pedia entry

Nice simple idea with Aiolia. It might need something else, but that's a start. I'm not into more units really, and there are already walls. Let me know if you come up with anything else.

I've managed to pull off the old 'Persian Puppet Master' trick with Lydia in this test game. All those luxuries in Asia Minor and a tech lead really came in handy. Macedonia, who were streaking ahead and denying me my top dog status, are now being dog piled by the Illyrians, Thracians and virtually all other Greeks. Sparta is tearing them a new hole right now. They are just driving a steamroller right through the heart of their empire.

 

[Takhisis]

Bithynia-Ithake-Aiolia.

Let's start with Aiolia. What do you think?

Spoiler :

#RACE_AIOLIA
^
^The Aioles are $LINK<scientific and commercial=GCON_Strengths>.
^
^They start the game with
$LINK<Domestication=TECH_Domestication> and build the $LINK<Rebel=PRTO_Rebel> as their unique unit.
^
^Their unique wonder is the $LINK<Aiolian Dodecapolis=BLDG_Aiolian_Dodecapolis>. Their unique Tribal Camp is the $LINK<Aiolian Camp=BLDG_CampAiolian>.
^
^They prefer Tyranny and despise Monarchy.
^
^The Aioles were the largest of the Greek tribes in the beginning, all originating in a place then called Æolis what is now the land of the Thettaloi. However, they were pushed out of there by Dorians from the north and Thessalians from Epeiros invading this territory. The Boeotians fled south from Thessalia and settled around their great city of $LINK<Thebes=RACE_THEVAI>. Other tribes fled to and settled in Aetolia, Lokris, Corinth, Elis, Messenia. Truly the Aioles are a great tribe.
^
^But what we are concerned with in this entry is another group who fled, not across land, but across the sea.
^They crossed the Ægean Sea during the ages of darkness and settled in the island of Lesbos and the lands of Mysia beyond it in Asia, the name Mysia being superseded by that of Æolis.
^
^(continues)
#DESC_RACE_AIOLIA
^This new Asian district of Æolis was bound on the north by the possessions of Troy in the Hellespont (depending on who dominated at the time), on the East by the Mysians and to the south by the Hermus river. Æolis wasn't so much a geographical unit as simply the land of the Aioles, an ethnolinguistic enclave on the edge of the Greek world.
^The Aioles' twelve most important cities joined to form an alliance called the Dodecapolis. Cyme, Larissae, Neonteichos, Temnus, Cilla, Notion, Ægiroessa, Pitane, {Ægae}, Myrina, Gryneion and Smyrna. However, Smyrna eventually switched over and joined the Ionians farther along to the south, perhaps by Athenian machinations and scheming. Who knows?
^After that they were eventually conquered by the Lydians under Croesus and became part of whatever empire ruled over their more powerful neighbours. Persians, Macedonians, Seleucids, one master after the other. As their land was necessarily a stepping ground for armies going either way, they never really stood a chance.
^
^^~~0~~
^
^{My Counsel:} This is a tough one as the historical Aiolian peoples didn't stand that much of a chance. You are surrounded by the Troes, Lydia and the Ionians, so there's powerful enemies on all fronts.
Strike early and often. You don't have any really good units, however, the $LINK<Champions=PRTO_Champion> provided by your tribal camp will be your best unit. Use it for attacking and for single-handedly getting rid of your opponents' own shock troops. You can manage to build a decent land empire if you play your cards right.
Crossing the Hellespont is inadvisable, but Lesbos is key to your victory. It's a great naval base, can furnish you with one or two Camps and will deter any seaborne invasions.
^Never mind the piratical excursions of seafaring peoples -and the Thracian peoples just across the Hellespont- later on, you'll have your hands full with your noisy neighbours.