Hegemon

[Rambuchan]

I finished my first game (v1, low level of difficulty) as Ionia.
1. I think I was one or two techs short of finishing the tech tree.
2. I won on points. No one else was close.
3. When the game ended I had Thrake down to three cities.
4. Constant wars among the other civs. Because their "empires" were so spread out beyond the homeland (a city here, a city there) there was a lot of give and take.
5. Sparta was a powerhouse; Athens less so.
6. I had several triremes defeated by single merchant ships. That doesn't seem right.
7. The entire map was covered by cities except for the south east corner of Asia Minor.
8. The barbarians were annoying (as they probably should be). I had to devote a lot of resources to "rear area security."
9. Greek fire wasn't as lethal as advertised. I was expecting an Iron Age version of nuclear weapons. I was amused by the disembodied amphorae bobbing across the scenery.
10. I managed to capture a number of cities through cultural conversion.
11. Careful placement of cities was very important to minimize sea movement.

Thanks for posting back and congrats on winning your game. Sounds like it was an epic blood bath!

Of your comments, I'd respond to the following:

5. It's easy to create a land based AI powerhouse. A bit harder getting the AI to be a seafaring powerhouse though. Let me know how Athens behave in your new game please.

6. I have tweaked naval settings and I'm happy to report that the AI is now (in the biq I am yet to release) rampant on the naval action. Making many landings and invasions and are generally more active here. I'll take another look at their combat stats, but there is still the chance of the old 'spearman defeating a tank'. It just happens sometimes.

7 & 8. Yes, that southeastern corner is a bit of a no man's land. Karia, Ionia, Phrygia and Lydia have to deal with the resulting barbs - who of course are meant to be a pest

9. Greek fire is a weird one. I must admit to not knowing how to fully harness it properly. Any ideas on this would be welcome.

10. Yes, cultural conversions should take place.

11. Careful placement of cities is VERY important in v1.3. And not only for naval activity. There are many more resources in v1.3 and these are tied to many improvements that require them in the city radius. So players should think long and hard about this aspect of things to maximise resources. This becomes even more important with the League Buildings. Many of these are designed in such a way as they can only really be built on one or two specific tiles.

Now it's on to the new version.

Hope you're having fun and do please report back!

 

[Blue Monkey]

Indeed, all the civ specific wonders have no characteristics flagged, idea being there would be no GA caused!

Didn't realize that was the case. Got a GA playing Macedonia that way, iirc. But I'm not sure after being so many hours into the current game. Have to play again & see if it happens.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I'll now get back to the posts in the order that I've neglected to reply to them in!
This is very valuable information. Thank you, dear VC. The weird thing, however, is this: Diolkos has no characteristics/civ traits flagged and yet Keroro still got a Golden Age. Indeed, all the civ specific wonders have no characteristics flagged, idea being there would be no GA caused!

In that case, maybe try to flag each wonder with a trait which their respective civ does not have?

 

[Keroro]

Some really random thoughts on the last page of posts:

I love specialist cities too. Encourage it! Coming up with a few improvements tied to rivers would be cool, though mints weren't it. Maybe potters wheels or a mill improvement? If you used potters wheels requiring a river in the city radius then it would simulate the quicker economic and industrial development that took place along rivers.

I like most of the changes in the next version Ram, good work on this. Argeads and Athenians being limited to 2 resources instead of 3 sounds good. Maybe increase the amount of Thracians and Illyrians available (they were notorious for selling their services after all, their price should be less than that of a Greek). Could Spartans be reduced to 1? Not sure if that's the resource that they use for their camps, and if so would it be possible to change it to the secondary resource in Spartan territory? Just ideas. In the timescale we're talking about the idea of Sparta as a polis agreeing to accept another country's rule is uncomfortable?

The Greek language thing - I find it just slightly tricky on the diplomacy screen to work out which civ I was meaning to talk to, and I do know a fair amount of Greek. It's pretty clear by looking at stats what each unit is going to do.

The Greek fire thing - a tricky one. I was never satisfied with how Alexander's Conquests used them. I've not got to that part of the tech tree yet, and with the lethal bombardment of the Korinth UU I'm not sure I'll use them, however, I shall report back if I have any ideas. Possibly having the fire catapult and the dromon in the game is a sufficient representation of Greek fire and the unit can be omitted?

 

[Rambuchan]

~ GAs from Civ Specific Wonders:

That's a good suggestion, Virote. I'll try flagging totally irrelevant traits and do a test. Just wondering though, do you guys think these civ specific wonders should cause Golden Ages?

They are mostly designed to coincide with a time roughly equivalent to each civ's GA, though there are some exceptions for gameplay reasons (eg. Macedonia's). Thing is, I have a general distaste for GAs from Wonders. I like to have mine come from Unique Units as this is more definite and controllable. But I don't want to foist my particular tastes on others and am not particularly precious about the issue.

~ Specialist Cities:

I've done a bunch of things to create more of these, on top of those already tied to Wines and Prophets in the currently released version. It's tricky of course, because this can seriously upset gameplay balance when you're dealing with things like commerce. Only testing will confirm of course, but I've managed it theoretically at least.

~ Fewer Hegemonic Resources:

I think this is important enough to, as Michael Jackson said, make that change. I'm also toying with giving them food/shield/commerce values to affect how the AI approaches them in trade. I'm just a bit wary of doing this though as that too could have some unintended gameplay balance consequences.

Spartans aren't required for the Hegemonic Victory. You can win this victory without having to 'persuade' them. I've basically designed the current (and I think final) Oaths of Fealty around Phillip II's League of Corinth / Hellenic League. And Sparta abstained from this, along with Crete. Further along, within the scenario's time period, Sparta did fall in line, after a failed military attempt. But I'm just ignoring that, partly because it doesn't feel right that Sparta should fall in line, partly owing to Phillip II's model that I'm using and also because it would make that victory considerably more difficult to achieve.

~ Greek Language:

I agree that it's a bit tricky and units are fine what with stats and all. I'd like to keep some Greek in for the civs and their adjectives. It adds flavour and I think one gets used to it after a while. I'm sure I've made some blunders with singular and plural here and there and also with cases. So if any are spotted do please holler.

~ Greek Fire:

I've been so busy with all the other stuff that's being done (and there's loads I haven't even mentioned in this thread) that I haven't really had the time to think about getting this right or testing it. I'll try to, of course, but if anyone wants to just feed me the proper settings to create something like the ancient Greek equivalent of a hand grenade or cruise missile, then I'd be very grateful indeed. I was happy to include the unit as I didn't feel it was an imaginative step too far, but it should work as well as is advertised!

~ Virote's Idea on the Persian Royal Road:

I like the Guest House in every city from such a wonder. However, I must say that airdropping units is a bit far. From my film work in real life, I'm big on the whole suspension of disbelief deal between audience and creator. And airdropping ancient units oversteps that golden rule I'm afraid. I'd much rather do such things via super cheap units, gifted growth, auto-production and high movement abilities for cavalry like the Cimmerians movement of 4, which I see is producing the desired results in the current test game. Lydia are tearing up Asia Minor and carving out their historical empire. Everyone over there is at war with them and, playing as a mainland Greek, I feel obliged to support my fellow Ionians in the struggle.

 

[Keroro]

Quick note on Greek Fire - even with lethal bombard, I'm not going to be producing any missiles with rate of fire 1...

When is the next update likely? Just finished a game, now itching for another. Makedonia next time, with their lovely league buildings.

I finished fairly early, but was on a far lower difficulty level than usual. I think you're about on the right level with your planned changes Ram. The main thing is the number of free units governments give - it removes an element of the guns vs butter decision by making it almost impossible for a large Empire to reach it's unit limit.

Anyway:
____________________

Chapter IIII - In which malign forces beset our polis from all sides, and we emerge favoured by Nike. Swoosh indeed.

Your story teller grows weary, but his tale must come to an end this night, before he goes for a cup of tea and then bed, in an effort to be in work on time tomorrow.

Shorn of her armies on our borders, and unable to effectively defend from our great armies, Sparte falls swiftly. But this is only half a tale. The Spartan society is formed on the backs of it's warriors and mothers, not upon a pile of bricks. Would Sparte give in after it's Capital is taken? Never! War goes on, in all it's glory, and all its terror. Great men are forged in the heat of battle and draw more fighting men to their cause. Our Champions and siege trains strike into the heartlands of Sparte, and city after city falls, but men are lost for every foot of land gained. the bloody campaign moves from the south of the Peloponnese, to the west, finally to the northern most Spartan outposts. All are scoured clean of defenders and either pressed into the Korinthian commonwealth or razed to the ground.

Yet at the moment of victory comes treachery from Argos. Double treachery! They side fully with Sparte and declare against us. Not only them, but in turn the Athenians, Thracians and Lydians declare against us as part of a grand alliance. Our northern borders are reinforced against the perfidy that has been visited upon us, and our armies fall upon Argos' meager forces and finish them in barely 10 turns of the seasons. Their boldness was unarguable, their courage once battle is joined was deficient.

Finally peace comes, with Sparte and Argos isolated on the islands they now occupy, and only tiny, meek Elis and Messenia to contest our control of the Peloponnese. Victory over the Spartan war machine is ours.

[One note - it would be useful to have a different graphic for the Korinthian UU - I frequently confused them with Katapults.]

Woe to the enemies of Korinth. Great alliances are formed against us, and we stand alone. Our philosophical and technological prowess now stands nearly a whole age ahead of any other, and our troops are terrible to behold in the field. Our Thorakites are nigh impregnable at the back, our Thureophoroi implacable to the fore.

Good reader. Look upon our Empire this day and the story shall tell itself. The fall of Phokaean Delphi. The desolation of the Thracian cities of the north. The heroic defence against the Illyrian raiders in the north west. Our armies carve across battlefields both heroic and desperate, moving our borders ever northward. Truly it has been said that man should not idly sit and call upon the Gods for Favour, but perform notable deeds in order to win their favour. Never more true was that than with the Korinthian push north. Our borders are yet unbreached and no man in the Greek world can contest us. Not the Lydians against whom we marshall the forces of Greece. Not the Makedonians, whose borders we now watch. We rule. Greece is ruled by Korinth. No, Greece is Korinth.
_________________________

Having trouble with attaching screenies again. Will post later. Final victory come just after 400 turns, while researching the second from last advance. Tribute victory.

• Tribute - 14000
• Wonders - 6000
• Slain enemies - 14000
• Advances - 14000
• Conquest - 11000

EDIT - Ah, attachments now seem to work.

 

[7ronin]

Hail Korero of Corinth, beloved of the Gods and Lord of the Greeks, may the poets sing praises to your victories for all time.

Congratulations on a great win accompanied by some excellent comments and insight.

 

[Rambuchan]

Quick note on Greek Fire - even with lethal bombard, I'm not going to be producing any missiles with rate of fire 1...

Good thing I went to the editor after 7ronin raised the matter and changed the rate of fire to 4 then! I hope this does the trick.

You mention a different unit for the Korinthian UU being worthwhile. I agree. It seemed like there were two different Ballistae units available. I grabbed both and put them in the game. They are supposed to be different, but are a bit too similar for my liking too. There just aren't any other options that I'm aware of.

As a general note on artillery in the game:

The Ballistae units I've put in are frequently mentioned in later writings, but I don't recall these 'crossbow on a frame' type of artillery being mentioned in my two main sources of Herodotus and Thucydides. They typically talk of siege engines such as battering rams. But, again, I'm not aware of any battering ram units available on these boards for inclusion.

And for general siege weapon interest:

I thought I'd scan this page from Thucydides's History of the Peloponnesian War and post it. It describes a rather ingenious siege weapon used by the Thebans and Boeotians against Athens. Enjoy!

 

[Rambuchan]

When is the next update likely?

The next update will be a matter of weeks, but less than a month I hope. I'm keen to get it done and out the door too, as my work will pick up again in January and there'll be little time available to dedicate to Hegemon.

Here's what is and has been happening in the workshop of Rambuchan and will be coming with the upgrade:

- A whole new Classical Greek style interface, courtesy of Vuldacon's talents and labours and my unreasonable requests.
- Cleaned up and improved existing graphics, such as the episema resources, various backgrounds and other funky stuff.
- 11 New Colony Wonders, as discussed earlier in the thread. With gorgeous wondersplashes.
- Refined unit lines and upgrade paths.
- New UUs for Ithake, Phokis, Kerkyria (whom I am now calling Korcyra) and others too if I find time.
- New units including: New ships, the much awaited and requested Vuldakonista, other land ones and maybe artillery ones too if someone can point out battering rams.
- All the Tech Icons completed to add detail, info, flavour and beauty.
- Most if not all the pedia entries completed, in the style of Herodotus of course.
- A mini-game-within-the-game for Ithake and maybe some others if I can manage it.
- Tech Tree renaming and rebalancing, even further to what's been done already.
- Tweaked governments.

Just finished a game, now itching for another. Makedonia next time, with their lovely league buildings.

Hope you enjoy your game with Macedonia, Keroro. Of all the test games I've played so far, I enjoyed playing with them the most. And that was before I introduced the Leagues. They go through two definite phases in the game:

(1) Being embroiled with and beset by the tribal barbaroi around them (Illyria & Thrace)
(2) Becoming the Hellenistic Superpower, if they can emerge from that early pressure and the other powerhouses haven't stolen the game in the meantime.

Thanks for the screenies and another excellent write up on your game. Very entertaining and well written! I'll look over both to ascertain what's been going on, but it seems things are working well.

 

[Virote_Considon]

A couple of siege units:
Hellenistic Siegetower
Battering Ram AoK Conversion
Siege Ram AoK Conversion

 

[Rambuchan]

A couple of siege units:
Hellenistic Siegetower
Battering Ram AoK Conversion
Siege Ram AoK Conversion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usfiAsWR4qU

 

[Delbruck1948]

Hi. This is my first time posting to a thread, and I have a problem. I've just DLed Hegemon 1.3 but whenever I try to load the scenario I get : Load Error Error Reading File. Missing entry in "text\PediaIcons.txt": ICON_BLDG_Smithy
Can anyone help?
Thanx

 

[Rambuchan]

Hello Delbruck, welcome to CFC.

I'm honoured that you've been moved to make your first post here.

Sounds like you've got a 'folder in a folder' situation going on. Check that the Hegemon folder that you've put in place doesn't have another Hegemon folder in it. If so, rename this first one Hegemon2 and then cut and paste the one inside it into your Conquests/Scenarios folder (Conquests/Conquests if you're playing with Civ3 Complete). Then fire it up! That should do the trick.

If what I describe isn't the case, then I guess something else is up and someone with a bit more expertise may have to advise you. I'll be tied up over the next 24 hours anyway, so won't be able to assist I'm afraid. But there are plenty of friendly, able and helpful people here who will step up in my place. I'm sure

Post back and let us know that you're up and running and also what you think of the scenario.

 

[Takhisis]

Yes, the main problem is that Civ III seems to have been coded specifically to crash every time something goes wrong instead of just not displaying the blasted .pcx, .flc or .wav file that is missing.

 

[Rambuchan]

Erm, there isn't anything missing, Takhisis. I double check and test things that I add so that players do not get mid-game crashes. Notice how we've had quite a number of game reports in the thread and not a single reported crash. The fact that Delbruck is getting that error note before loading the scenario suggests that either (a) there's a folder within a folder or (b) the DL got corrupted, which sometimes happens, but there's nothing I can do about that.

Did you get it to work yet Delbruck1948?

 

[Keroro]

Important change required Ram - Hoplites are not flagged as draft, though the unique versions of the hoplite are. I would presume this is a mistake? Now that I have around 50 Thrakian peltasts about to attack relatively undefended cities next turn this seems like quite a problem! I did make a few little changes in the editor before starting as Makedonia, but don't think I touched any of the draft properties.

Hail Korero of Corinth, beloved of the Gods and Lord of the Greeks, may the poets sing praises to your victories for all time.

Congratulations on a great win accompanied by some excellent comments and insight.

Thanks for the screenies and another excellent write up on your game. Very entertaining and well written! I'll look over both to ascertain what's been going on, but it seems things are working well.

Thank you both. Most stuff is working very well Ram.

Makedonia is very interesting. I managed to keep uneasy truces with all the major powers through the first age, but now going into the classical age I'm beginning to consider some warring. I'm relying on peltasts and hoplites at present, which seems to be enough to deal with Chalkidae, but now that I've almost defeated them I seem to suddenly have a massive Thrakian army on my doorstep. Perfidious barbarians. Ah well, time for some kicking ass I suppose.

My third game, when the new version arrives, shall involve at least one naval unit. I've barely touched the seas in my games so far, as Makedonia I don't have a single vessel and with Korinth I only used a few in skirmishes.

 

[Rambuchan]

Important change required Ram - Hoplites are not flagged as draft, though the unique versions of the hoplite are. I would presume this is a mistake? Now that I have around 50 Thrakian peltasts about to attack relatively undefended cities next turn this seems like quite a problem! I did make a few little changes in the editor before starting as Makedonia, but don't think I touched any of the draft properties.

Well spotted. Thank you! It's a shame all the other hoplites had been flagged for draft and not the one you need! That was indeed an oversight on my part, sorry about that. It's been corrected for the update biq to come. I'm sure you're capable of handling things though.

What were the other changes you made? They might be worthwhile doing too.

Thank you both. Most stuff is working very well Ram.

Makedonia is very interesting. I managed to keep uneasy truces with all the major powers through the first age, but now going into the classical age I'm beginning to consider some warring. I'm relying on peltasts and hoplites at present, which seems to be enough to deal with Chalkidae, but now that I've almost defeated them I seem to suddenly have a massive Thrakian army on my doorstep. Perfidious barbarians. Ah well, time for some kicking ass I suppose.

I did warn you about those Thracians. The Illyrians are also something for Makedon to deal with. You'll need to get involved with them as Phillip II did (see 'Phillip's Wedding Bed' improvement in The Hellenes League).

I mixed up a nice cocktail of 'hammer and anvil' and diplomacy for those barbaroi in order to ride through to the arrival of Makedon's super troops. I even got them to war with each other at one point. But those barbaroi come with plenty of troops, which is as it should be, and created problems bigger than I am used to dealing with. I had to temporarily lose some cities to Thrace. But, once the serious Makedon troops arrived, I taught the Thracians a lesson in Hegemony and then did the same to the rest of the Greeks. If you haven't suffered too badly, and the Greeks in the south haven't stolen away with things, the final age should turn into child's play.

My third game, when the new version arrives, shall involve at least one naval unit. I've barely touched the seas in my games so far, as Makedonia I don't have a single vessel and with Korinth I only used a few in skirmishes.

You mention taking out Chalkidike. Well, that is the obvious and sensible thing to do. I notice that usually the AI Thrace or Illyria or Makedon do it. Once you've done that, owing to the geography of Pallene and so on, you'll find naval concerns of greater importance.

I've been working my way through the gargantuan excel sheet I've got going for all the units. This is to sort out the little niggles of upgrade paths, any missing flags and so on. I've made good progress, but it's a massive mountain to climb. And then I've got to face working with Steph's editor to clean up the build lists and order of units in the biq. Anyway, part of the work that I've done on that front has called for bringing in new units. Quite a few of these new units are ships. And the changes I made to naval units from previous comments have seriously upped naval activity in the tests I've been doing.

 

[Keroro]

Well spotted. Thank you! It's a shame all the other hoplites had been flagged for draft and not the one you need! That was indeed an oversight on my part, sorry about that. It's been corrected for the update biq to come. I'm sure you're capable of handling things though.

What were the other changes you made? They might be worthwhile doing too.

The other changes were just a few things you're already noted - Hypaspists improvements, Greek fire rate of fire. Nothing that You've not talked about, and nothing that should change the game balance.

You mention taking out Chalkidike. Well, that is the obvious and sensible thing to do. I notice that usually the AI Thrace or Illyria or Makedon do it. Once you've done that, owing to the geography of Pallene and so on, you'll find naval concerns of greater importance.

Yeah, Thrake was already destroying the Chalkidae and I didn't want them taking any more territory than I had to allow them. I DOWed Chalkidae and tore up 7 cities within three turns (I had planned for this war for some time! They're pretty much sitting ducks. Maybe consider giving them a slightly better defender for the late archaic/early classical if you want them to hang around - peltasts will annihilate them easy as it is.

Thanks for the general pointers! Are there any races you haven't been able to playtest? If so I'll consider them for the next game, whenever that is.

 

[Rambuchan]

Yeah, Thrake was already destroying the Chalkidae and I didn't want them taking any more territory than I had to allow them. I DOWed Chalkidae and tore up 7 cities within three turns (I had planned for this war for some time! They're pretty much sitting ducks. Maybe consider giving them a slightly better defender for the late archaic/early classical if you want them to hang around - peltasts will annihilate them easy as it is.

I'm inclined to keep them as sitting ducks, though I'll look into what you suggest of course.

Thanks for the general pointers!

No problemo. Just thought of another fairly important pointer for Makedon, regarding Chalkidike & Thrake:

One of those two is likely sitting on the land where the historical Amphipolis was. Both you (Makedon) and Athens can make very good use of that spot of land, where Gold & Thassians appears, with their League improvements. Don't go letting those uncouth Thrakians get it!

Are there any races you haven't been able to playtest? If so I'll consider them for the next game, whenever that is.

I've not tested the following that I'd like to on the newest released version:

- Lydia: The AI seems to be carving out their historical empire rather well with their control of the Cimmerian Cavalry. It'd be interesting to see what a human does with them and how easy that Domination Victory is (on the un-released biq it's set at 25% land, 40% pop).
- Sparta: They seemed to do well from the get go, but I haven't played them since one of the very earliest version.
- Thebes: Had a very good early game with them and did pretty much what you've recently done with Korinth. Not tested them more recently though.
- Thrake: I'm curious about the Thracian and Illyrian barbaroi in general, especially to see their marauding capabilities and economy in human hands. I've played with Bithynia on a very very early version and terrorised much of Asia Minor with their peltasts, only to discover their economy was broken more than it should be, so quit to fix it. And I've played Illyria a couple of times, which is fun with their enslaving units and hordes. I even took land down by the coast to set me up for their late game piracy, but didn't carry on in order to plough on with the mountain of work for the new version.
- None of the Island Greeks since very early versions and not very far with them. So many more important civs to test and so little time!
- Aiolia: I've tested Ionia challenging the expanding Lydian yolk, which was a fun challenge, but not these guys.
- Done Aetolia and taken that to a Hegemonic Victory and progressed well with Thessaly who seemed well set to do the same on easier difficulties. Also Epirus actually. But the others in that northern area of Greece should render a good challenge and fun game.

 

[Keroro]

So, I finished a second game, with Makedonia this time. Hegemonic Victory, though I had to carefully choose my moments towards the end and finished on 59,770 tribute points. A little close. Most of those were conquest, enemies slain and technologies, very few actual tribute points. A massive, stitched together map (not a particularly neat one, but it will give you an idea) is attached. Lydia, as usual, was running in second place. Sparta, for once, was pretty passive and didn't seem to particularly bother anyone.

Thebes was a pain in the side the whole game. You'll probably notice their cities dotted around. The turn after I won I declared war on them and a bunch of other states and went on the rampage. I had around 20 armies by this time with either champions or hetairoi in them. I'm sure you can imagine the carnage - no competition.

Note - even with the great Mack units, it was slightly tricky to take Athenian cities with their hoplites defending. A good thing I feel.

The Hellenes League improvement requiring Samians and Ionians in the cities radius is impossible to build anywhere as far as I can see. No possible city location gives both those resources within the distance you would need.

There are a few civs that seem never to research much, I think partly because they don't get roads and so never get much gold to spend on research. I would recommend making the advance with roads more attractive to the AI. Not quite sure how to do that. Example - right at the end of my latest game I invaded Elis to get Eliains and Messenians to get the last Oath of Fealty I needed. They didn't have a single road and their army was full of Akonistes, despite having held their land the whole game and having 4 respectably sited cities.

I hope the flat purchase is going well enough Ram.