Hegemon

[Rambuchan]

That is pure gold.

And it does resurrect the debate over balance between cultural authenticity and ease of understanding...

 

[T-mun]

This is perfectly understandable to me

 

[Rambuchan]

One must bear in mind that within the game a player doesn't see what you're seeing on that website, for example:

Akontistès (GR): javelineer.

What will show in the city build list and also in the units section of the civilopedia is a list looking something like this:

Doryphoros
Machairophoros
Pezakontistes
Xystophoros
Grosphomachos
Gymnes

Sure, there will be unit stats and icons. But which is the Spearman? Which is the Swordsman? Which is the Lightly Armed Skirmisher?

That's what I'm trying to bear in mind. I'd love to have them all with Greek names. But I feel it shouldn't be at the expense of players looking to build a unit and thinking - and I quote dear Takhisis here - "lolwut?"

I'm open to hearing people's thoughts on this.

 

[Takhisis]

How about we call it an expansive scenario?

It's an expansive reply of course!

Takhisis - Thank you for the meticulous attention with your feedback. Keep it coming. And thanks also for helping out jlvfr in my absence. To get back to your comments:

- Palette Issues: As Vuldacon has said, the palette issues are all fixed now and the upgrade will have none of these. In fact, they will all shine and gleam and glow with rich colour. And the improvements to the graphics go way way WAAAAY beyond just palette fixes...

- "Science Advisor: Roman Era, inexistent tech: Engineering" This has been properly removed now too.

Good! Sorry if I've missed something but i was banned for over a month and didn't really come back to the forum until Christmas.

- "Logchoforos" will no enter into mountains:

I meant the typo. Enter 'into' mountains while most other entries simply have 'enter mountains'. Yes, I have an eye for that.

- Why is 'Herald's name in English and not in Greek? - I have mentioned already that there are some inconsistencies with the language. It has pretty much been agreed already, further back in the thread, that it's good to have a balance of English and Greek. If it were all in Greek then things would get too difficult to understand. If it were all in English there wouldn't be enough cultural flavour. So you get a mix and a balance. The Greeks were big on happy mediums and considered extremism an unwise policy.

Tell that to those Spartan Xiphomatoi that meant the downfall of my nice Korynthian city state.

- I'm scalping people at trade, is it supposed to work that way? - Yes. As you've no doubt discovered by now, this situation doesn't go on for long. Also, if you read the opening screen (or scenario info page) giving background about the collapse of most things in the Mediterranean world, then you will have learned how the scenario opens in something of a 'Dark Age'. All those techs you're trading with ease are things people used to know before the collapse. They were not lost altogether though. People did remember them and re-establishing the recently lost trade networks soon brings back this knowledge. That's the idea anyway!

- Where are all the DESC_PRTO entries? - I know! So slack of me! But seriously, I have written quite a few already for v1.3 which you are playing and they are in character. Check out the DESC_ entries for The Makedonian Skirmisher or Katapeltikon, for example. I am writing and have written more already. But I can't promise I will have one for every unit or building. There are just too many. I aim offer a good sprinkling of them to give some flavour, character, info and humour.

You aim 'to' offer that, right?

Send the text files along when you have them it's one of the few things I can do it regardless of RAM and such issues.

- Government descriptions could be more... in character, you know. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Such as having different symbols for them and not confusing Tyanny with Despotism? Maybe having all .pcxs done anew at some time?

- Dioscuri Cult lolwut? - Just one of many religious cults of the time.

Most of the lolwuts are .pcx mistakes.

Now that I reread this, isn't Dioscuri the Latin plural? I'm not familiar wwith Greek declension rules, sadly.

- Saltpeter WTH? - So eloquently put. If you know the recipe of Greek Fire then do please share it with the world. Everyone's dying to know what it was. Saltpeter aka Sodium Nitrate (not Potassium Nitrate btw) is probably the most likely key ingredient, so I went with that.

I meant the image was fecked up, a magenta background issue. I hadn't got around to checking the uses of each resource by that point in time.

- Typos - Sure. There are bound to be some. Please let me know those you spot and I will fix them.

See post below, copy-paste from last night's session.

jlvfr - You've been correctly informed about how to conduct sea trade. Harbours are still useful, but it's the Trade Ports you need to build. There are historical and gameplay reasons for this approach, which are dealt with further back in the thread. In short: Not all islands were important, rich or happy places during the time period and sea (rather than air) trade on this size map made things slow down a lot in the late game.

So, yes, you'll have to pay close attention to which islands you go for and what you plan to build on them. And - perhaps more importantly - how you might deny other civs from accessing these islands. Athens in particular can make potent use of those islands with resources like Islanders, Delian Tribute and so on. But there are others out there too. Check out the pedia entries for all four of The Leagues to find out more.

I'm already doing that, the first thing I do is search for islanders and send out my galleys there. One Gymnitos, one Toxotes and one Lonchoporos? provide adequate escort for a settler along with some Douloi .

That's what I'm trying to bear in mind. I'd love to have them all with Greek names. But I feel it shouldn't be at the expense of players looking to build a unit and thinking - and I quote dear Takhisis here - "lolwut?"

I'm open to hearing people's thoughts on this.

RFRE gets away with it.

btw in the game it says Akonistes, not Akontistes.

 

[Takhisis]

Log:

Player stup: Atheniaoi

Is it Basileus with a u? Sounds too... Roman.

Kyklades greeting: Eurypilos, head of the House of Orange

Why is the city called 'Athenai' in the game screen but in the civilopedia it's 'Athinai'?

Boule=Courthouse?

Someone should tell these skinflint Makedonai and Korynthioi that it's bargaining, not scalping.

Illyrians' Eques: isn't that Latin?

Tribalism wonder: Autoproduces a 'Scout' every 8 turns. But the 'Scout' is called a Herald.

I'll go on writing down stuff if I notice it.

 

[Takhisis]

The civilopedia entry for the Temple of Dionysus states

Requires: a supply of wine in the city radius to allow both construction and the continuation of Bacchian revelry.

But Marble is also required and due to Firaxis' hardcoding Marble is also required within the city radius, so the range of places this Wonder can be built is rather limited.

Last log of the day:

What's this? When I move my mouse over Mysticism in the tech advisor screen I get a comment on how writing gives us the possibility of embassies and treaties and such.

558BC: Strange problem: I have three island cities with the Islanders resource, all connected to their respective resource and all without Trade Ports, BUT they're semi-connected and some resources are shared bewteen them, namely, Marble, Thebans and Argeans. Thebans and Marble I do have from my capital. I don't even have Argeans, what's going on here?
I don't ven have the Monarchy tech to see the Argeads!
This disappears after a Trade Port is built in the city.

Wasn't Lysimacheia named after Alexander's general Lysimachus?

Hero entry: it says 'an heroic bonus'. Should be 'a'.

Spartan and Athenian Hero units have a link to the nonexistent Hastus entry, as well as one to the Thrakian Swordsman which leads to a Dii Swordsman. Btw 'Thrakian' isn't a Greek word.
I've found a Hastatus, is this the unit you meant?

I love the little touch: 'what they consider to be culture' on the capturde enemy unit.

The timescale might be a bit warped.

Forbidden Palace entry still has link to Secret Police HQ (Invalid Entry)

Wrong Agrothes picture, civpedialarge.pcx is shown.

Both me and Thrake are listed as having four Oaths of Fealty even though none have been built yet.

Does the city of Kalliupolis have anything to do with Gelibolu/Gallipoli?

Text error: "only Marines can attack from the sea". Since we're at it, are there any amphibious units? There's no entry on amphibious attacks in the civilopedia Game Concepts index.
Otherwise any single-tile island is an impregnable fortress.

And that Game Concepts index could have something better than the question mark, just saying.

 

[jiikoo]

I did not play RFRE. Reason? I didn`t like latin names. Too confusing.

 

[Rambuchan]

I meant the typo. Enter 'into' mountains while most other entries simply have 'enter mountains'. Yes, I have an eye for that.

There's nothing wrong with that and that's what I meant to write. It's one thing having an eye for typos. It's quite another have the vision to see the bigger picture.

Such as having different symbols for them and not confusing Tyanny with Despotism? Maybe having all .pcxs done anew at some time?
Most of the lolwuts are .pcx mistakes.

You need not comment on the pcx files further. I have clearly mentioned this as a problem that needs dealing with in the opening posts and we have already told you that these have all been dealt with.

Now that I reread this, isn't Dioscuri the Latin plural? I'm not familiar wwith Greek declension rules, sadly.

I don't know. You're the linguist. I have many books that refer to the Dioscuri Cult in Ancient Greece.

I'm already doing that, the first thing I do is search for islanders and send out my galleys there. One Gymnitos, one Toxotes and one Lonchoporos? provide adequate escort for a settler along with some Douloi .

Yes, you need to do things like that.

 

[Rambuchan]

Takhisis, responses to your other comments:

Player stup: Atheniaoi

That's what a Greek speaker told me is how one would say Athenians. And who am I to tell them how to speak their own language!

Is it Basileus with a u? Sounds too... Roman.

See comment directly above.

Kyklades greeting: Eurypilos, head of the House of Orange

Sorry, but there is no way I'm getting into dealing with the diplomacy files. They are a beast. There is a massive amount of work that has been done already and is yet to be done. Those tasks are far more important than dealing with the diplomacy files which, in my opinion, chew up huge amounts of time and have little impact on the game. It's that old sweat to effect ratio.

Why is the city called 'Athenai' in the game screen but in the civilopedia it's 'Athinai'?

Because the game isn't finished yet and I've already fixed many things like that.

Boule=Courthouse?

The Civilopedia tells you the answer.

Illyrians' Eques: isn't that Latin?

Yes. I've used quite a few Roman units to represent their influence in the region into the latter part of the scenario's time period. Sadly, we can't just magic The Romans into the game towards the latter part of it. So that's the way I've represented their influence. I've done the same with Persian influence in the region on the other side of the map.

Tribalism wonder: Autoproduces a 'Scout' every 8 turns. But the 'Scout' is called a Herald.

Another hangover from versions into versions that has already been fixed for the upgrade.

But Marble is also required and due to Firaxis' hardcoding Marble is also required within the city radius, so the range of places this Wonder can be built is rather limited.

Yes. I know. You've got to think and plan ahead.

What's this? When I move my mouse over Mysticism in the tech advisor screen I get a comment on how writing gives us the possibility of embassies and treaties and such.

Another hangover from versions into versions that has already been fixed for the upgrade.

558BC: Strange problem: I have three island cities with the Islanders resource, all connected to their respective resource and all without Trade Ports, BUT they're semi-connected and some resources are shared bewteen them, namely, Marble, Thebans and Argeans. Thebans and Marble I do have from my capital. I don't even have Argeans, what's going on here?
I don't ven have the Monarchy tech to see the Argeads!
This disappears after a Trade Port is built in the city.

That's the darned 'resource bug'. Basically, Hegemon has more resources than the blasted Civ3 creators thought it sensible for us to play with. It's a hard coded issue. Fortunately, there is no greater consequence than them appearing in your city screen. You can't actually do anything with them and thus they can't ruin the game.

Wasn't Lysimacheia named after Alexander's general Lysimachus?

Sorry, I don't know.

Hero entry: it says 'an heroic bonus'. Should be 'a'.

I'm happy to be wrong. I find it inelegant to say it that way. Just go ahead and say "a heroic" out loud. At best it sounds like a neanderthal. At worst like you're about to vomit.

Spartan and Athenian Hero units have a link to the nonexistent Hastus entry, as well as one to the Thrakian Swordsman which leads to a Dii Swordsman. Btw 'Thrakian' isn't a Greek word. I've found a Hastatus, is this the unit you meant?

Another hangover from versions into versions that has already been fixed for the upgrade.

I love the little touch: 'what they consider to be culture' on the capturde enemy unit.

Wow! A positive comment. You should throw a few more of these in from time to time.

The timescale might be a bit warped.

How so? This has been very tricky to balance well for every civ in the game, given their differing economic abilities. I do feel that the version I'm sitting with, soon to be released, has done as good a job as possible for all civs.

Forbidden Palace entry still has link to Secret Police HQ (Invalid Entry)

Has already been fixed.

Wrong Agrothes picture, civpedialarge.pcx is shown.

Has already been fixed.

Both me and Thrake are listed as having four Oaths of Fealty even though none have been built yet.

That's a little biq mistake on my part. A happy accident and a gift for you actually. You will need only attain 8 Oaths of Fealty to win the game via the Hegemonic Victory.

Does the city of Kalliupolis have anything to do with Gelibolu/Gallipoli?

I don't know.

Text error: "only Marines can attack from the sea". Since we're at it, are there any amphibious units? There's no entry on amphibious attacks in the civilopedia Game Concepts index. Otherwise any single-tile island is an impregnable fortress.

The text error has been fixed. I'm not so stupid as to make a scenario on such a map and not include amphibious units. All the 'ranged' units, like archers and crossbowmen, plus peltasts and some others in the later game are able to mount amphibious attacks.

And that Game Concepts index could have something better than the question mark, just saying.

This too has been dealt with.

btw in the game it says Akonistes, not Akontistes.

Yes, I know. I wrote it. As far as I know and have been informed, they are both passable.

 

[Rambuchan]

RFRE gets away with it.

I don't think it does.

I did not play RFRE. Reason? I didn`t like latin names. Too confusing.

I agree. I think it's definitely necessary to have some units with Latin and Greek names, for flavour and educational purposes. But to have every unit in Greek or Latin is just too much and is actually counter productive. If it turns people off from playing, or makes the experience less enjoyable, then all those educational gems are wasted. One must remember that it is a game, after all.

Which brings me to another matter of taste and RFRE: Lack of choice. Namely that you can only play as one civ and must follow a strict line of techs and conquests by certain dates. I personally find this unappealing, though I appreciate many think it's great.

My feelings are that such a linear and restricted approach fails to capture the best of the gaming medium. A film or a book is linear (well most). But a game like civ isn't. The real beauty of games such as Civ is The Sandbox effect. In other words, there's no right way to play, you can do it over and over in numerous different ways and you can play from a number of different perspectives too. My view is that a good historical scenario balances this Sandbox quality with historical information and accuracy and provides an immersive, evocative setting within which to do it all.

 

[Takhisis]

Hey Ram, I've never said or tried to imply that you're stupid, I just write down a lot of notes in NotePad while I play and they're somehwat inconnex. It's more or less thinking out loud… or written down, whatever. I tend to write down anything that might be wrong/out of character and it's up to you to decide what to do with it. Most are bug/typo reports, some are just comments and random thoughts.

There's a good chunk of the thread I've missed due to ban+exams+holidays, so I sometimes report something that's already been dealt with.

There's nothing wrong with that and that's what I meant to write. It's one thing having an eye for typos. It's quite another have the vision to see the bigger picture.

Maybe I'm going hyper-paranoid with possible typos because I'm studying for English exams. I tend to have something of an accent that I have to temporarily hold back for a couple more weeks. Sorry if I overdo it.

I don't know. You're the linguist. I have many books that refer to the Dioscuri Cult in Ancient Greece.

I speak English and Spanish and can understand Gaelic. Greek is not my forte.

Yes, you need to do things like that.

And they work! I'm encroaching on Naxos, i've cleared most nearby Islands, once my cities are strong enough to resist counterattacks from those sea-weed eating Barbaroi,

Takhisis, responses to your other comments:

Let's see…
Many of the 'Already fixed'/'no solution' ones are skipped for brevity's sake.

That's what a Greek speaker told me is how one would say Athenians. And who am I to tell them how to speak their own language!

See comment directly above.

It's all Greek to me.

Sorry, but there is no way I'm getting into dealing with the diplomacy files. They are a beast. There is a massive amount of work that has been done already and is yet to be done. Those tasks are far more important than dealing with the diplomacy files which, in my opinion, chew up huge amounts of time and have little impact on the game. It's that old sweat to effect ratio.

That can be dealt with later.

Yes. I've used quite a few Roman units to represent their influence in the region into the latter part of the scenario's time period. Sadly, we can't just magic The Romans into the game towards the latter part of it. So that's the way I've represented their influence. I've done the same with Persian influence in the region on the other side of the map.

Yes, I've seen a few Assyrian mercenaries and such.

Yes. I know. You've got to think and plan ahead.

I know that, what I meant is that the Civilopedia entry sort of ignores the fact that Marble is also required within city radius. Not that I'm not building the wonder anyway, mind you.

That's the darned 'resource bug'. Basically, Hegemon has more resources than the blasted Civ3 creators thought it sensible for us to play with. It's a hard coded issue. Fortunately, there is no greater consequence than them appearing in your city screen. You can't actually do anything with them and thus they can't ruin the game.

I'd read about it a lot of times but I'd never seen it in action before. It's finally caught up with me. It still can't be cleared up in the islands without islanders, but since the resources don't 'really' appear it's not such a big thing.

I'm happy to be wrong. I find it inelegant to say it that way. Just go ahead and say "a heroic" out loud. At best it sounds like a neanderthal. At worst like you're about to vomit.

Depends on your accent and how you pronounce it.
…
…
…Oh, I've just tried a deep Texan nasal accent. Keep it as 'an' for all that's holy!

Wow! A positive comment. You should throw a few more of these in from time to time.

I love dissing my rivals at whatever I play.
Keep it up!

How so? This has been very tricky to balance well for every civ in the game, given their differing economic abilities. I do feel that the version I'm sitting with, soon to be released, has done as good a job as possible for all civs.

I meant just the number of years per turn, I think that the techs themselves are coming along quite fine, i'm nearly done with the Archaic era.

That's a little biq mistake on my part. A happy accident and a gift for you actually. You will need only attain 8 Oaths of Fealty to win the game via the Hegemonic Victory.

But the Thracians have also got that!

P.S. if I ever get to win through Oaths of Fealty, don't you dare disable that. If I lose because of Oaths fo Fealty, don't you dare keep that filthy path to victory available.

The text error has been fixed. I'm not so stupid as to make a scenario on such a map and not include amphibious units. All the 'ranged' units, like archers and crossbowmen, plus peltasts and some others in the later game are able to mount amphibious attacks.

I've just become very happy I have my Great Temple producing Toxotai.

Yes, I know. I wrote it. As far as I know and have been informed, they are both passable.

Ah. Goodie then. As I don't speak Greek (never had the time to learn) I thought I'd point it out to be on the safe side.

I don't think it does.

I did not play RFRE. Reason? I didn`t like latin names. Too confusing.

I agree. I think it's definitely necessary to have some units with Latin and Greek names, for flavour and educational purposes. But to have every unit in Greek or Latin is just too much and is actually counter productive. If it turns people off from playing, or makes the experience less enjoyable, then all those educational gems are wasted. One must remember that it is a game, after all.

Which brings me to another matter of taste and RFRE: Lack of choice. Namely that you can only play as one civ and must follow a strict line of techs and conquests by certain dates. I personally find this unappealing, though I appreciate many think it's great.

My feelings are that such a linear and restricted approach fails to capture the best of the gaming medium. A film or a book is linear (well most). But a game like civ isn't. The real beauty of games such as Civ is The Sandbox effect. In other words, there's no right way to play, you can do it over and over in numerous different ways and you can play from a number of different perspectives too. My view is that a good historical scenario balances this Sandbox quality with historical information and accuracy and provides an immersive, evocative setting within which to do it all.

You do have a point. Well, two points:
Everything in Greek makes no sense at all.
As it stands now, it's fine .
I've had an idea, a unit could be called, let's say 'Toxotes' buy be referred to as 'Archer' everywhere, in the civilopedia, in the Advisors that recommend the tech required for Archers, and so on.

RFRE is like playing an RPG where the GM railroads you into doing what he wants (have you read the DM of the Rings?).

 

[Takhisis]

Did a bit of further play. Comments:

Have I written about the Spartan Logchoporos beign soundless? A basic Spearman sound would go nicely with them. Or a Hoplite, or a Numidian mercenary, whichever seems best.

Scavenger has an invalid link to an entry called 'Raider'.
Ah! Found out the answer. The Enslavement civpedia entry has two invalid links to Privateer, English Man-O-War and a Javelin thrower. The Javelin Thrower would be this Raider'.

"by 'barbarian' I mean a people even less learned than the Illyrians, Thracians or even the learned Asiatic kingdoms. They will enter mountains and to the gods know what in there". Made a good read.

Also, Thevai and the Phokeis are at war with each other so I'm beginning to shift troops to my city in southern Euboeis.​

 

[7ronin]

Ram: I think I'm in agreement with you regarding naming conventions. Use the original language for the names of countries, people, and governments. Use the original language for well known unit titles and English where the original might be confusing. In any event, once you've played a few times it all falls into place. And if it doesn't, well, that's why we have a Civilopedia.

 

[Rambuchan]

7ronin

Good to hear from you buddy! You've hit the nail on the head with naming conventions. I do think that's the best approach and am inclined to carry that through. (PS. I managed to catch up on The Sage & The Warrior scenario thread for the first time yesterday. I'll try to find time to comment. The map work seems to be going well. Let me know in that thread or via PM if that excel file was helpful or you need it tinkered with and how your other planning is going).

Takhisis

- Seeing as you have missed much of the thread - It's mainly feedback on game play that is most helpful. Stuff like civilopedia entries and graphics work need not be commented on. These have all been and are still are being reworked. It is, however, helpful to hear what you think works well in the civilopedia in terms of character and content. I can still enhance those for upgrade.

- Phantom resources - Yes, as you say since the resources don't 'really' appear it's not such a big thing and they vanish once a city is connected to your trade network. I think it's far more important - and indeed essential to the game - that all these tribal resources exist. When the upgrade comes you will also see how beautiful they are.

- Timescale - The years go by faster from 1200-800BC. Not much - that we know of! - happened in that period. But they slow down and things get more detailed once you enter the Classical and Hegemonic Eras.

- Thrace & Oaths of Fealty - Everyone benefits from my happy accident on the v1.3 biq. I added some extra parts, but I didn't set the number of these that are required. So, as these four parts require 0 of each, they have effectively been gifted to you and all other civs.

- Hegemonic Victory Condition - There is no way I'll be disabling this. It is the essential driving concept behind the scenario. In fact, we have just completed the F10 progress screen for the Hegemonic Struggle (spaceship). So there will be a beautiful map showing all the regions falling under your hegemony. And I'm now working on a Victory Animation film which will play once you launch the Greeks, united under your hegemony, into the known world.

- Happiness & Great Temple Wonders - Yes, the twelve Great Temple Wonders to the Olympian Gods are very powerful indeed. My personal favourites when I play are the Temples of Zeus, Demeter, Ares and Hephaestus (Smithy in every city!). Serious power ensues from building these. There are plenty of wonders in the game though.

- Unit Sounds - Yes, please let me know any units you spot without sounds, or with inappropriate sounds. I have fixed many already but there are so many units that extra ears would be much appreciated.

- Naming conventions - 7ronin has hit the nail on the head and that's the approach I'm taking.

- Your game - Keep up the reports. It sounds like it's developing well. But be careful your expansion into the islands doesn't leave you vulnerable on the mainland. It's only a matter of time before you get jumped! You'll also need to start expanding on the mainland if you're to give yourself a chance of a Hegemonic or Tribute Victory.

jlvfr

How's your game going? Gaining in power and influence I hope. Let me know if you need any tips.

 

[Rambuchan]

I think I've pretty much nailed the order and selection of the soundtrack now. How does a 3 hour long soundtrack, filled with epic, authentic and atmospheric music sound? (No funky stuff like the Mughals soundtrack on this one. Well, maybe with the odd funky exception )

It's full of heart piercingly beautiful Ancient Greek music, performed from fragments of original musical scores left to us. This mainly appears in diplomacy, but there's plenty in the main soundtrack too. As this Ancient Greek music is all generally of the same tempo and feel, I've also got lots of variety and texture from musical cultures surrounding Greek lands. So there's also music from Persia, Anatolia, many areas of the Balkans and also some cinematic pieces to bring out the grandeur and magnitude of the game. Some pretty epic tracks in there, much of it very soothing and atmospheric for immersion and pleasure during play.

These non-Greek tracks aren't just used for variety, they have been selected and ordered in the playlist to (a) evoke the relevant cultural influences in the region and (b) to track and represent the influences of foreigners into the region through the time period (eg. the percussion of the Persian music raises the temperature and creates a more unsettled tone to evoke their invasions around half way through the time period / soundtrack playlist).

 

[Rathvilly]

Hegemon is seriously enjoyable ! Just lost a game as the Illyrians on turn 443 (255 BC). Was beaten into second place by Lydia in the last 15 turns - they went on a killing spree in Asia Minor and pulled ahead so fast that I was unable to catch them. Illyria were good to play - you're in a precarious position for the first half of the game, but if you survive attacks from the usual suspects (Thrace and Macedonia - who really want to take you down), you slowly build up enough strength to take on anyone - you do need to rely on numbers of units though and I think to thrive you have to get rid of Epirus in the first half of the game - this gives you access to the coast. I did notice some of the early units enslave Doulos rather than Enemies - you might want to alter the civlopedia unless this was intentional. I'm looking forward to the next version !

 

[Takhisis]

And that, in my opinion, can only be a good thing.

From this afternoon:

Hey, Harbour entry should be edited so it isn't listed as a trade link any more.

Under a Tyranny, being at war is better for public morale than peacetime. Heh.

Hmmm, discrepancy. Why are the Peltasts 'swordsmen' if their graphics and such indicate they're javelineers?
It could be just mentioned that the barbarians from Makedonia and Thrake prefer javelins to civilised weapons...

The Euboians have Akonistes and Polemistes as garrison forces. Does sending in Heroes and Xiphomakos escorted by the Logchoporos

Astonishing! Lydia grows to be the most powerful country in the world (or in Hellas, which is the same) while their Dodekanesian eighbours screw up big.

Flax appears to have a flower (a poppy, I think) in the city view instead of the same reddish ball in the civilopedia.

Barbarian names remain to be edited. I know, it's small fry, but being attacked by the Avars and the Ghuzz is a bit anachronistic.

There's still Engineers with helmets! I've had an idea. Since gender roles were much more strictly enforced in those times, maybe some of the city specialists could be single-gendered?

Some gameplay notes (Athens):

• The trick is to avoid a land war with Sparta at all costs, even if it involves paying a great many talents in tribute at some point. Their Spartan Xiphomakos and building-produced units make them terrible.
  
  Another bothersome power is Makedonia. So far that you'll never reach it, but it secures dozens of ROP treaties and send a horde of Paeonian Skirmishers. And the Ai cheats and knows where your units are, but you don't know when/where they are coming. The safest position is to let Orchomenos (Thevai always build it next to Corinth) act as a buffer, fortify Athens and whatever your city to the North of it is (halfway between Thevai and the Euboian capital) with a few Logchophoros for defense as well as Toxotai/Xiphomatoi for counterattacking. Never ever ever let the asstards get up into your mountains in the Attic peninsula, you can't dislodge them because your units are too cowardly to enter the mountains.
  
  The palæstra becomes immensely useful as the Gymnitos can be a game breaker in th early stages. It can transport Libation Wines and other Tribute in one or two turns to your capital, it can kill stranded attackers when defending your territory, and you can use it to bombard and retreat. Powerful indeed.
  
• Trade: Build a Herald or two as well as a Polemistes and send them out exploring, same with the Curragh. Any trade you can make is worth it, find out which civs have two techs that you need, trade one of your own (and anything else, Talents, luxuries, whatever's needed) to Civ A then you compensate by getting one or two other techs and some talents from Civ B, you can juggle around a few techs if you know a few civs that are not in touch with each other.
  
• If you plan on a sea empire the only islands you have to focus on getting to the Temple of Poseidon (which fortunately requires the same tech as the Galleys) as fast as you can, and spawn a lot of settlers. For uninhabited islands a single defender will do. If there are pesky natives this means a good amount of tribute (you might want to check on that, Ram, I can keep a Barbarian island and harvest it for extra tribute if I want to).
  The islands to settle are the ones with Islanders and any which can yield Tribute. Tribute comes first unless you're also securing a League resource or you're aiming to establish a strong Naval Base.
  I find Wine is essential for staying ahead in the Tribute race, as well as Prophets once you find them. Unless you can also secure
  
  Tip: deploy an Akonistes, Polemistes, or whatever your cheapest unit is, to one-tile island. There's a few benefits to this:
  • you get to know where the Ai is trying to expand to. With 2.2.5 Mycenean Galleys you can outrun the 1.1.2 (1.1.3 sometimes) galleys most landlubbers issue.
  • They can't settle there!
  • You get to know where the Barbaroi raiding fleets are. The AI appears to do nothing about them, there's a big fleet around Naxos chasing me unmolested. My galleys are 1.1.4 while the barbs have only 2 movement points but it still messes with my expansion projects by sheer force of numbers. Even if you eradicate the settlements (one or two Logchophoros plus one or two Toxotai) the ships remain
  • Eventually you can pile Settlers into a couple ships and populate those lone garrisons.
• At war with Euboea
  First of all I started my sea empire by starting a city in southern Euboea and sending a Doulos to help along so that when my Altar started expanding the city the Horses in Southern Euboea would already be mine as well as the Wineyard being available ASAP. The lack of Horses and Copper results in the Euboean defenses being hopelessly outdated. Their attacks seems to consist of waves of Polemistes and the occasional Akonistes. I split their defenses by attacking with Heroes, Xiphomates, Logchophoros (two of each, half a dozen units in all) and I'd built two galleys at Piraios (my city next to Thevai, on the North Attican coast ) so I ferried some amphibious units to attack northern Euboia every turn while also ferrying a Logchoporos and Gymnitos. After they lost two cities the Euboeans surrendered and gave me three cities, all in isolated islands to the north of their island. A few turns to fortify said island positions and the finish off the Euboians.

Corinth usually ends up pressed by everyone around them, Mykenai, the Argioi, Thevai, everyone presses them in. Should be easy to take except for the Ancestor. For some reason Euboia is much weaker than it historically was. I don't know if it's because I cornered them early to get horses and a naval base to expand westwards or if it's inherent to them, I'll find out when I start with a new tribe.

 

[Takhisis]

I've been reading up on Diarchy, could do some stuff on that. Anything you need for that particular civilopedia entry? Pics? Flavour text?

 

[Rambuchan]

Rathvilly - Really good to hear from you again. I recall your previous feedback making a crucial contribution to version v1.3, which basically resulted in the introduction of the Tribute Victory. My thanks again for that. It added heaps of value to the pleasure of the game.

You seem to understand the game very well and I'm delighted you've been having fun with it. I too have had a couple of rolls of the dice with Illyria and they're quite a hoot to play with. Very different to the Greek civs. And it seems your game with them has seen all the intended dynamics coming out nicely.

Barbaroi warfare: Yes, Illyria and the other barbaroi do have to rely on their hordes to bring about a big empire. That seemed fitting, given the way they waged war in the era.

Illyria's competition: It's a good old barbaric triangle going on up in the north between them, Thrace and Macedonia. Quite a different game than for the Greek city states. One thing that I've not yet tried when playing as Illyria is dispatching Macedonia early, while they are weak, instead of Epirus. But I'd be interested to try that myself and see what happens. You made a wise move in dispatching Epirus early, which is the sensible and logical thing to do. I never got to fully exploit Illyria's powerful late game navy myself, as I moved onto testing other civs. So I'd be interested to hear your experiences with those ships if you had any.

About Lydia pipping you to the post: Yup, they're going to do that and should streak ahead towards the end. As with my previous comments about the Romans, it's a real shame that Persia can't be magicked into the game half way through. So Lydia kind of stand in for that 'threat from the east'. And that isn't entirely ahistorical given their large holdings over there before they got crushed.

About enslavement to the Doulous: The civilopedia is right, the biq is wrong. I've fixed it so that enslavement to the Enemy happens and you can then take him home, chop his head off, eat his flesh and get a bit of "culture".

 

[Takhisis]

We *do* have a problem with the phantom resource bug. I have a city near Naxos that has been assigned Marble at random and can build a Temple even though it hasn't got any Marble and isn't connected to any trade network. Obviously I'll take advantage of it (well, not really since I'm building a Trade Port and will get the Marble anyway) but the AI might cheat on this.