Hegemon

[jlvfr]

I can't get over how many city states there were... wth did the greeks do? Call every set of 2-3 shacks a city?!

 

[Leobon]

I am still thoroughly enjoying this scenario, but I've noticed some errors/possible errors, as well as a few suggestions:

--- Pangaion Mine doesn't have Thassians as "required goods in city radius" so this could make all of Athens' civilization build them... was this intended? I don't get the feeling that was meant to be.

--- Island of Samos doesn't have Ionians on it (to build the Samian Shipyard)

--- Should Congress of Allies and Spartan War Council not have "required goods in city radius" checked? All my cities, while I played as Sparta, could build those, and I don't know if that was intentional or an oversight

--- Phocian Stables: There's only one spot on the map with Boetians and Phocians I know of that are close to each other (Delphi), and there's only four tiles southeast of the city that allow a settlement to include both resources in its radius (and two of those four tiles are only a square away from Delphi itself...)

--- Garrison at "Cornith" misspelled

--- Byzantion Barracks for Thebes civilization: There's no Thrace resource at Byzantion, so how does Thebes build this? It requires Thrace and Copper in the city radius, but I don't see any Thrace&Copper resource combination anywhere on the map.

--- Silver is a strategic resource, yet I can't find a unit, worker job, or improvement/wonder that requires it, and when I try to set it to "bonus resource", the game tells me it's used for something...

--- Pythia: maybe set this as a luxury? There's 4 of it at Delphi, so shouldn't there only be 1 Pythia resource at Delphi if it's just a strategic one (and this is the only location of Pythia in Greece), or set it to luxury if you want it to be used as a commodity?

EDIT: The great wonder for Mycenae, "Mycenaean Trade", allows for safe sea passage by naval ships, and increased trade in water tiles... yet Mycenae is a land-locked civilization and Mycenae itself doesn't include any water tiles in its full radius.

 

[Leobon]

I can't get over how many city states there were... wth did the greeks do? Call every set of 2-3 shacks a city?!

Yep, pretty much. In some cases (Troy), every time the shack fell apart, they put a new one in its place again and again and again =D

 

[Takhisis]

--- Pangaion Mine doesn't have Thassians as "required goods in city radius" so this could make all of Athens' civilization build them... was this intended? I don't get the feeling that was meant to be.

Hmmm, it should only be buildable on Thássos and southwestern Thrake.

Island of Samos doesn't have Ionians on it (to build the Samian Shipyard)

Already reported.

Should Congress of Allies and Spartan War Council not have "required goods in city radius" checked? All my cities, while I played as Sparta, could build those, and I don't know if that was intentional or an oversight

Yes, fix it in your editor.

--- Silver is a strategic resource, yet I can't find a unit, worker job, or improvement/wonder that requires it, and when I try to set it to "bonus resource", the game tells me it's used for something...

The Imperial Trireme. Check the civilopedia entry, it states which units are buildable with each resource.
BUT it should have more uses.

The great wonder for Mycenae, "Mycenaean Trade", allows for safe sea passage by naval ships, and increased trade in water tiles... yet Mycenae is a land-locked civilization and Mycenae itself doesn't include any water tiles in its full radius.

Not land-locked unless you play them extremely crappily.

 

[Takhisis]

This makes for a very long read, it's two decades of Warfare, the construction of the Serpent Column, beginning to claim the Fealty of several Greek peoples, making peace with the Lydoi, Pangaion gold-fever, the conquest of Naxos and surrounding islands, the Illyrioi invading Attica and literally leaving the defenses of Athinai at ONE GYMNITOS after destroyed, and the destruction of Chalkidiké, followed by a Continuation War between Makedonia, Chersonesos and Thrake. Almost makes for a separate AAR thread (which is what I'll do next game). Ah, and the Breuscians have no sounds.

Spoiler :

395 BC
We oust a Cimmerian from Lemnos.
Then several ships converge on the Kykladitai and start attacking them.

26798 to 28616, still trailing these bloodthirsty barbarian.

Thessalia joins Lokris against Hermione/Argos.

karia and Lydia sign a peace treaty again.

Epeiros and Ithake sign an embargo against us.
Then Epeiros declares war on Argos.
Aetolia and Ithake join in a trade embargo against us as well.

394 BC
By research-fiddling we shall earn 516 Talents thsi turn, enough to finish construction of the Pangaion Mines within the next three turns.

We take Delos and its Marble Idols.

Our first Taxation has been produced! I find the coffer much more æsthetically pleasing than the Firaxis-made Tribute.

Only four cities remain as free Chalkidiké.

Makedonia and Kyklades sign a trade embargo against us.

393 BC
We shall be discovering Leagues in 8 turns if research continues as planned.

The air of battle is heavy on Naxos as we spy a column of three Divisions of Akonistes, four of Gymnitos and two of the Polemistes come climbing south down the hills towards Delos.

Note: +1 and +2 Naval movement points are not cumulative, the cap is at +3.

Elis joins Sparte intheir war against the Ithakes.
Troia does the same but against the Chalkidikeis.

Kerkyra then joins the Ithakes aainst the Eliatai.

Halinios falls into unrest. Why? They're right in the middle of our own sea.

Sparte and Dodekanesa declare war on the Kykladitai as per our MPP.

A Persian mercenary lands in Lemnos.
----------------------------------
392 BC
An Athenian Hoplite on Lemnos defeats the Persian invading force.

We pay over 770 Talents to hire extra workers to finish the Pangaion Mines. At 50 Talents and 100 Tribute every four Turns, our path is clear.

We proceed northwards towards Náxos while on the nearby island of Páros our forces take one casualty -a Gymnitos- while taking down some of the Aknosites on the island.

WTH? The Karieis have joined the Ithakes against us after ragging us into the war against the Lydoi?

Phrygia and Krete sign a peace treaty while the Makedonai trample through the capital of Chalkidiké, Kassandreia.

Sparte and Dodekanesa declare war on the Karieis.

One of our ships is caught off-guard near Chíos. Down it goes.
A single Anatolian Archer is dropped off at Léros while a signficantly more threatening force of two Cimmerians and an Anatolian Skirmisher show up on the Isle of Furnoi.

391 BC
Our quick-response team sails in from Patmos and defeats the Asian hordes attacking Furnoi. The local garrison at Léros takes down the Archers deployed on their island.

We then take Naxos from the Kykladitai amid fierce battles. Not all our brave lads survive.

28426 to 29816.

I love the civilopedia picture for the Argead bodyguard btw.

The Troes and we exchange Territory and World Maps.

The Thettaloi offer an embargo against the Argioi. We take it.

Lrete and Lydia sign a Peace Treaty.

390 BC

A Great Leader called Ajax emerges from the fighting at the walls of the city of Melos on the island of Páros.

We reopen passage through the Orchomenos straits.

Teuta threatens to declare war if we do not help her contact the Lydoi. We refuse on a matter of principle and the silly woman insists on attacking. The cheek, the sheer cheek!

Messenia joins Ithake against the Eliatai. Soon Messene will be crushed under the combined forces of Elis and Sparte.

Epeiros declares war on the Chalkidikeis and thus end their embargo against us.

EEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKK! Thrake declares war on the Makedonai.

We complete construction of a great column adorned with serpents to symbolise the unity of Attica and Laconia.

We force resettlement of the city of Naxos.

The Ithakes deploy an Akonistes next to our city of Aphidnai and the Episkopoi Lodge. This cannot be allowed.
------------------------------------
389 BC

We move our Kykladitai settler southwards to get him into contact with the Delian tribute on Naxos.

We withdraw our forces from the siege of Melos, for their own protection.

We see scores of barbarians coming through the lands of Phokisi Illyriké.

We dislodge the Ithakes from their position.

Then we make a Mycenean Galley take the two divisions of Miktos Toxotes from Torone on the peninsula of Chalkidiké and send them back south to Tripolis2 and/or to counter a force headed for Skyros.

The Eliatai try to tempt us into attacking the Kerkyraioi. No, no. Just no.

A countless horde of Illyrioi surge through the lands around Thevai. The deeds of the Thevaioi shall be remembered and scores settled.

Ithake and Argos sign a peace treaty.

Sparte and Dodekanesa declare war on the Illyrioi. It's OOOONNNNN!!!!

Our MPP kicks in and forces us back into war with Chalkidiké.

388 BC
Four Breucian Hillsmen and eighteen Scordiscian Flesh Eaters are just north of Thorai, they have come in through the Plataian plain.
Half a hundred other divisions move towards Thevai.

Two Champions, three of the fabled spartan Xiphomakos, an archer and some naked wrestlers face them on behalf of Sparte. But then, another Champion, a Hero, a Xiphomakos and a Miktos Toxotes are just behind them to help their countrymen.

We reinforce Thorai by sea through Orchomenos. Long live the great genius who made the Athenian fleet the masters of the sea.

We sink one of two Biremes attacking the isle of Skyros.
The troops returning from Chalkidiké then take Tripolis2 on Giüra. Now the only remaining Northern Aegean harbour in the hands of the Lydoi is the recently conquered Troia.

We redeploy on the isle of Páros, with two of our noble citizen soldiers, two Argive Swordsmen, a Champion, an Athenian Hero and two badly wounded Gymnitoi.

The view on the southern Asian coast is petrifying, dozens of cities have been laid waste by the Lydoi, others have rebuilt in their place and have been also exterminated.

29354 to 30654. Hope the Episkopoi Lodges on the Kyklades will take us in front.

Thrake and Thevai sign a peace treaty.

The Lokroi offer an embargo against the Argioi. Thanks, but no thanks. But we do make friends with them by trading World Maps.

Argos and Makedonia are persuaded by the Illyrioi to sign trade embargoes against us.

The Spartiatai land on Páros as well. They seem to like the Wines but the Kykladitai manage to expel them -just.

Torone revolts but doesn't flip.

The Lydoi land a Cimmerian on the island of Furnoi.

The Pangaion Mines produce their first Taxation ever! Kawaiiiii!
--------------------------------------
387 BC
We cleanse the tile just north of Orchomenos of the two weakened Gymnitoi who had fled there from the Spartan onslaught.

Navigation will be useful in the future as the building of Quays will greatly increase the productivity of our island colonies, or so our philosophers say.

The total defenses of Melos on the Isle of Páros are
Akonistes: 9
Polemistes: 6
Toxotes: 1
Gymnitos: 8

24 in all. We take their Toxotes down with our Champion, now we must stand firm against their charge and attack their best attacker again next turn, and so on.

Fourteen Gymnitoi occupy a tile to the South-east of Thevai
The best unit the Illyrioi have is the Breucian Hillsman. But they must have over a hundred of them.
We take down nine of the Northerners' units but it's probably less than 10% of their invasion force.
37 on a tile, the fourteen now trimmed down to 11, another 22, another 9, then the uncountable heap in Boeotia... they're endless, these hordes of Illyrioi!
We bring in two other citizen soldiers from Euboia to reinforce Piraios, thus, the local garrison can join their Hellenic brothers at Thevai.

Our rapid response unit from the island of Patmos drops in at Furnoi. A Hero cuts down the Cimmerian cavalry lest the Lydoi establish a beachhead there.

Messenia and Ithake sign a trade embargo against us.

Fierce fighting goes on in the northwestern front. Thorai and Thevai are not attacked but our defenses at Orchomenos barely withstand the assaults of the invading forces. Only a Toxotes and a Gymnitos remain.

The Lydoi land a Cimmerian and an Asian Spearman on Léros.

386 BC
29810 to 31086. Still trailing and they're past the halfway mark. The xtermination of the Phrygai has been a heinous act and nine cities await their uncertain fate.

Three Illyrian Champions have come down, we're in trouble with a capital Troub.

Our rapid response unit turns to Léros and deals with the invading Lydoi swiftly and ruthlessly.

We recapture one of our free soldier-citizens, now reduced to a Doulos, from the hands of two Scordiscians who fight to the death, taking one of our Gymnitoi with them.
Unfortunately, our man is now broken and used to serfdom and he will remain a Doulos for life.

By now we're up to 29878. The massacre the Lydoi must have perpetrated to have so much Tribute is just unthinkable.

Chalkidiké and the Lokroi sign a peace treaty.

Surprisingly, the Idiotai, I mean, the Illyrioi, do not attack the easy target at Orchomenos, instead choosing to attempt a chase against our stack of Douloi.
As well as attacking -and, sadly, defeating- several of the scattered Spartan infantrymen.

Aetolia want to exchange World Maps if I give them Democracy. Lol!

The Thrakians and the Lydoi sign a peace treaty.

The Spartiatai stirke back at the Illyrioi with a furious vengeance.

We take in 445 Talents because of our fiddling with research budgets as we compelte Leagues.

Now we intend to reach Imperialism and be able to build the mighty Thorakites defender within the next 9 turns.

385BC
We have no troops to spare to send out to observe and scout the battlefields along Spartan Epiros and Illyria.

5 Breucians and 16 Scordiscians on one tile,

We take Kyrrha by surprise, making use of our Miktos Toxotes and some itnelligent ship-hopping. The place was defeded by only two Autariates Spearmen.
Whoopsa! We have a foothold in Phokis now.

We take down another two Gymnitoi in the siege of Melos.

Since we have no cavalry it's difficult to take down many of these Illyrians and the Spartiates spend a lot of units going after an isolated half-dead Polemistes and similar targets.
But, I know, this is Firaxis' fault.

We examine our maps, the Makedonai and the Thrakai are taking cities off each other all across the north.

KRete and Kerkyra sign a peace treaty.

Aetolia and Illyria sign a trade embargo against us.

We take 146 Talents from the Lydoi as a token of peace.

Troia and Sparte join against the Karieis.

A Merchant Galley loaded with Illyrian troops is seen sailing from Elatea and past the northern tip of Euboia.

Dodekanesa and the Kyklades sign a peace treaty.

Phrygia and Karia sign a trade embargo against us.

Epeiros and Argos sign a peace treaty.

384BC
We must take this turn seriously or Athinai will fall.
We take down another two defenders at Melos. Four of the naked javelineers left!

A brave Gymnitos at Thorai sallies forth and kills a one-HP Champion. His two companions, inspiredly, take down an enemy gymnitos and a Scordiscian Flesh Eater.

We destroy the Merchant Galley threatening the port of Dystos in northern Euboea using one of our Imperial Triremes. They truly are, as people 2387 years later will say, 'a blast'.

We now press 'Enter'...

Athinai survives with a single Gymnitos to guard the city. Even our noble Ancestor is now dead. What shall become of us?

The Spartiatai hold tur to their end of the bargain by slaughtering more than half of the surviving Illyrioi.

After the round of combat is over, Athinai recruits a Champion and a new Athenian Hoplite, a citizen-soldier.

Our Epitastes is informed of the completion of an Oracle in Thevai. 'Small' wonder, hmph.
Then the Prytanis learns about the building of a great Wonder, the Gardens dedicated to the Epicurean way of life.

We build a Sanctuary on Furnoi. More Tribute, baby!

383BC
Two Beruscians, eight Gymnitoi and eight Scordiscians have survived their failed assault on Athinai. It's payback time.

The Breuscians have no sounds!

The Karieis still have Middle Eastern/Veaguely Muslim diplo stuff.

Only Charadros remains in the hands of the once mighty Chalkidikeis.

All the fighting against the Illyrioi has now brought us to 31960 Tribute against Lydia's 31420. This is disturbing.

Sparte and Lydia have signed a peace traty.
The Spartiatai mop up most of the Illyrioi remaining in Attica.

Ithake brings the Argioi into a war against the soon-to-be-dead Chalkidikeis.
Phrygia and the Kykladitai sign a trade embargo against us.

Makedonia makes the Argioi declare war against Thrake.

War weariness has kicked in across several major cities.

Akonistes × 3 + Polemistes × 6, all that remains of the Melos defenses.

The Pangaion Mine's civilopedia entry lacks a mention of it causing unhappiness in the description. Or was it not meant to cause unhappiness?

Chalkidiké and Thessalia sign a peace treaty. Still, if they don't make a peace with both Sparte and the Makedonai they're toast.
The Thevaioi want to exchange world maps if I give them Philosophy. You can imagine where I told them to go to.
Lydia and Dodekanesa sign a peace treaty.
Chalkidiké sign turns with Epeiros and us.

The Illyrioi finish construction of Agron's Rule.

381BC
Polemistes × 6 + Aknoistes × 4 + a Gymnitos.

They fall. There's two resistors! The cheek of these people!

A seaborne assault on Antikyra on the coast of Phokis fails, with two of our Mixtos Toxotai losing their lives.

Elis and Kerkyra sign a peace treaty.
Illyria and Sarte sign a peace treaty.
Dodekanesa and karia do likewise.

Famien spreads as people lose sight of any aim in life due to the war and they don't even care to harvest the produce of our fields.

380 BC
We lose another Mixtos Toxotes attempting to attack the one-tile island of Iulos. How can the Aknosites defend so well?

The Messenioi offer an embargo vs. Elis. NO!
Ithake and Sparte sign a peace treaty.
Kerkyra and Sparte sign a military alliance agains the Kyklades.
The Spartiatai finally put an end to the free nation of Chalkidiké. We salute our worthy opponents and wish themm luck in another game.

We complete the Parthenon in Piraios!
The Serpent Column has Trained a Confederate Hoplite, a true symbol of ourunion with the Laconians.

I love the Confederate Hoplites even though they're off-center. We should have M-units everywhere.
And also because they're better than the Thorakites.

We sign a Peace Treaty with the Ithakes.
We defeat another raiding party from Illyrian Phokis.

32828 to 32478 at end of turn.

Kerkyra and Lydia sign a peace treaty.
the Kykladitai land two Gymnitoi on the island of Naxos, next to our city of Delos. Grrrr.
Epeiros joins Makedonia in their crusade against the Thrakai. It's only a matter of time before Sparte steps in and our treaties will force our hand. That's the conflict we shouldn't mess in.
Krete joins Makedonia against the Lydoi.
Dodekanesa declares war on the Kykladitai.

378 BC
Eight Tributes are being brought to Sparte from the northern wars! 400 Tribute points.

We sink the impudent Kykladitai and defeat their landing party.

Lydia and Messenia sign a peace treaty.
Makedonia makes Ithake declare war on the Lydoi.

377BC
Seeing as the Spratiates don't respect our MPP, we make peace with the Illyrioi and acquire Lydia from them.
Apparently our MPP's just been discontinued and we were never informed. Leonidas wants Horses, Contact with the Dodekanesioi, Unity, and Civics to renew it.

Our cities revive with the joy of the ceasefire!

The Thettaloi destroy the Argioi while some of the Illyria-instigated Embargoes against us start to fall apart.

Makedonia and Ithake sign an alliance against Dodekanesa.
Then Makedonia makes the Kykladitai sign an alliance against the Lydoi.
The Kykladitai land another two Gymnitoi again. *sighs*

376 BC
We disembark in Andros and garrison our recent acquisition of Epidamia. Who know what'll happen next? Maybe we're forced into a war with the Makedonai.

We shove off the Kykladitai and destroy their ship again.

From Thássos, we witness how a single unaccompanied Persian Mercenary lands on Makedonian ground.

We discover Imperialism and aim to get Alchemy within eight Turns!

We are now at war with Aetolia after they attack the Dodekanesioi.

375 BC Our assault on Andros begins. Four defenders! Against five Champions!
Akonistes × 3 die, then Gymnitos.

The Thrakai are very backwards.

Ajax hurries the construction of our Hegemonic Praxis. Truly this Small Wonder is important.
Lokris and Makedonia join against Thrake. The Lokroi are too far south to make a difference in this war.

374BC
The good thing is, we have the bases at Lemnos, Skyros, Giüra so we can protect our shipping routes from the Pangaion Mine and also do a Trireme Relay.
The Thorakites doesn't have a population cost.
A Veteran Athenian Hero has 6 HPs which makes him first on the combat priority list, ovetaking the Thorakites. Something is wrong here.

Ithake and Aetolia sign a trade ambargo against us. We being to garrison Thevai and Thorai against the upcoming invasion from Aetolia.
Ithake declares war on the Thrakai.
Then Thevai and Aetolia sign Trade Embargoes against us.
Lydia finally destroys the Phrygai.
Illyria declares war against Thrake at the behest of the Ithakes.
Leonidas signs a peace treaty with the Kykladitai.
Thessalia declares war against Aetolia.

373 BC
The Kykladitai are veyr willing to sell us Tenos and Iulos OR Syphnos. But we want Thera and its Delian Tribute. Back off!

We begin to build a Sanctuary on Hierapolis on the Isle of Ikaria. You might want to revise the position of that Prophets resource.

Kerkyra declares war against the Dodekanesioi. We really should smash down that ex-Corinthian relic.

372BC
The defenses of Thera: Doulos × 1, Toxotes × 3, Akonistes × 11, Gymnitos × 9, Polemistes × 4
No Toxotes survives.

Chersonesos declares war on Thrake. The early victories of the Thrakai in Paionia have been reversed and those cities are back under Philip's control.
Poor Thrakai.

371 BC
We cash in an entire Imperial Trireme's load of Taxation (400 Tribute points) to stretch our Tribute lead to 35070 against 33658 of the Lydoi.
We expend 720 Talents to build another Episkopoi Lodge in Anaphlystos.

Thrake and Makedonia sign a peace treaty. THe Makedonai dump their allies!

Our MPP pushes us into declaring war with kerkyra. Silly Dodekanesioi...

370 BC
Elis and Ithake sign a Peace Treaty, Lokris joins Aetolia in an embargo against us.
Makedonia pushes Troia into a war with the Lydoi. THEN Troia declares war on the Dodekanesioi.

War weariness kicks in again. We must make epace with the Kykladitai soon or be destroyed from within.

The Makedonai are caught trying to sneak spies into our capital.

369BC
Only 16 defenders left on Thera.
Four of them are slain, all in all.

Kerkyra attacks Páros with a Miktos Toxotes and fails, then drops an Akonistes up north.
Kerkyra then sign an alliance with Lydia against Ithake.
Dodekanesa and the Kykladitai sign a peace treaty.

We complete the Fealty of Attika.
We uncover the secrets of Alchemy, and our Temple of Aphrodite is now obsolete. The chemistry of love is gone...
Our vines finally take root in Melos!

Our MPP makes us declare war on the Troes after they engage in cobmat with the Dodekanesioi. We could have a use for Lesbos and its Wines after all...

368 BC
We decide that our second Confederate Hoplite will be dispatched to guard our important Pangaion Mine.

We take down Akonistes, leaving
1 × Doulos, 4 × Polemistes, 4 × Akonistes

Elis and Messenia finally sign a peace treaty.
One of our Imperial Triremes is caught at sea near Thorikos and sunk by the Kerkyraioi! It still managed to destroy the first ship, thus upholding the proud Athenian naval traditions.
Pollution mars the landscape of Thásos.

367 BC
We destroy all defenders in Thera but for four youngsters. The Polemistes is completely outclassed by now.

36246 to 34056

Sparte and Karia sign a peace treaty.
Two of our mycenean Galleys are attacked off the coast of Attika. One is SUNK by these impudent Westerners. They're probably half-Illyrioi anyway.

 

[Rambuchan]

Leobon - Hi there and thanks for popping in. Very useful feedback indeed.

I've made corrections to the points I hadn't noticed before and double checked the others. So all those League improvements and also use of Pythia has now been sorted. As for Mycenaean Trade, Takhisis is right. There is a way of playing them which makes good use of their wonder. I've seen the AI do it many times. There are a number of units that use Silver aside from the Imperial Trireme, many over in Asia Minor will have silver dependent units too. Some of the new Colony Wonders require silver to build.

 

[Kyriakos]

I wish i could find the time to play this, it seems you really created a great experience of the ancient Greek world Rambuchan

If you need any more gfx you can always ask...

 

[Rambuchan]

johnnyjal - Great to see you again. I hope you'll enjoy this scenario as much as the last!

Takhisis - Thanks for the reports. I'm reading them all. I just don't have the time to respond much at the moment. We're moving house in the next couple of days. Lots to do. I'll then be unable to respond for about a week while I wait for my new internet connection to get hooked up. I've made loads of progress on the Civilopedia and have even tested a great Tribute Victory with Phokis.

sasebo - Thanks for the reports. Very interesting and encouraging. You're getting a really good feel of the game from different angles now. Though Troia is a terrible choice if you're looking to have a shot at winning the game.

jlvfr - That is a phenomenal naval encounter

 

[Takhisis]

This thing might come in handy, Ram.

Phokis as tributers? WTH?

I think I might get to a Hegemon Victory before I get tot he Tribute one -both us and Lydia are below 35000.

 

[Leobon]

After playing a number of games with this scenario, as either Athens or Sparta, I've noticed a couple cool things:

Lydia seems to always gobble up Asia Minor
Thrace is a serious force in the far north

I find this pretty cool. It makes the Thracians a serious force to be reckoned with; they kind of serve as the proverbial "Northern Barbarians," while the Lydians turn into a kind of Persian Empire.

I have another suggestion: have the special building for Spartans, the Apophora Exchange, produce a Helot instead of Agrothe. You could simply replicate the Civilopedia stuff on Agrothe for a Helot, or use the "Slave/Prisoner" entry if you wanted to make them look unique. I just think this would be cool.

 

[Rambuchan]

After playing a number of games with this scenario, as either Athens or Sparta, I've noticed a couple cool things:

Lydia seems to always gobble up Asia Minor
Thrace is a serious force in the far north

I find this pretty cool. It makes the Thracians a serious force to be reckoned with; they kind of serve as the proverbial "Northern Barbarians," while the Lydians turn into a kind of Persian Empire.

That's exactly as intended. Took a while to get Lydia to behave like that (I think it's the Cimmerian unit which finally cracked it) but Thrace were northern monsters from the get go.

Thracians, although often overlooked, did play a major role in the history of the area. I had originally designed it so that they would threaten a domination victory. But I toned them down a bit and bumped Lydia up ahead of them for that, as that seemed more appropriate and AI Thracians winning via that victory wouldn't seem quite right. That said, I think a competent, war hungry, human player could quite easily achieve a Domination Victory with Thrace.

With Lydia, you're right. They kind of stand in for two civs - Lydia and then Persia. They both gobbled up Asia Minor in their own times. I considered long and hard whether to actually put Persia in there, swapping them in for one of the more minor 31 civs. But I'm still not convinced that the AI can be made to behave in the same way the armies of Darius and Xerxes did during the Greco-Persian Wars ie. launch a targetted attack at Attika by land and sea and then retreat completely back to Asia Minor(*). There must be a way of doing this, but I think it would be very difficult to achieve with any kind of accuracy that satisfies. I'd be quite up for someone taking the upgrade and trying to make that happen though. For now, Lydia(/Persia) threatening to win the game - every time - kind of provides that same contest for the victory.

(*) Note: In my recent test game (as Phocis) Lydia and Sparta went to war and Lydia were surprisingly efficient at sending ships over to Spartan holdings in the Cyclades. Those islands quickly fell into Lydian hands. They didn't however make such good headway on the Peloponnese iself.

I have another suggestion: have the special building for Spartans, the Apophora Exchange, produce a Helot instead of Agrothe. You could simply replicate the Civilopedia stuff on Agrothe for a Helot, or use the "Slave/Prisoner" entry if you wanted to make them look unique. I just think this would be cool.

Oh yes, I can put the helots back in.

-----

Here's a request for info and thoughts from people who've played this a number of times:

How long do you think the game should be? 450, 500, 550 turns? More?

I'd like to know how close people have come to winning or losing and at roughly at what turn that happened. I need to hear thoughts on making enough space and time for a Hegemonic Victory to be possible.

I'm also considering dropping the Tribute Victory requirement down to 50k or 55k. Please share your thoughts and experiences.

FYI - I have boosted the cost of all the later techs quite significantly and also made many untradeable, so progress through the tech tree will happen much slower.

 

[Rambuchan]

This thing might come in handy, Ram.

Oh great! I was waiting for those!

Phokis as tributers? WTH?

Yes indeed. The AI can't win with them but a human can. They have received three new 'leg ups' toward a Tribute Victory, making them a much more appealing civ to play with:

(1) They have a new UU called the Delphic Priest who enslaves to Temple Offerings.
(2) Their unique wonder the Delphic Oracle now produces Temple Offerings.
(3) They have 3 of the new Colony Wonders: Massalia, Hyene and Emporion. Massalia produces Taxation and Emporion produces Libation Wine.

I think I might get to a Hegemon Victory before I get tot he Tribute one -both us and Lydia are below 35000.

Keep us posted! And do please share your thoughts on length of game and victories.

 

[jlvfr]

So...

Last night I was rereading parts of the greece-persia wars. And found a note starting that the alince that went to Platea represented only 5% of Greek city-states... wth...

Anyway, I found something else: the actual cost of a trireme. I've known for some time that these ships were, for their age, very expensive, mainly because of the crew: 200 men, mostly hired. But the book put it in costs: each trireme cost, on average, the equivalent (in 2008 prices) to £350.000 per year:suicide: no wonder only the richest states could get them!

So, I was wondering... how about raising the cost of the triremes in the game? It would be more realistic.

 

[Takhisis]

That's exactly as intended. Took a while to get Lydia to behave like that (I think it's the Cimmerian unit which finally cracked it) but Thrace were northern monsters from the get go.

Thracians, although often overlooked, did play a major role in the history of the area. I had originally designed it so that they would threaten a domination victory. But I toned them down a bit and bumped Lydia up ahead of them for that, as that seemed more appropriate and AI Thracians winning via that victory wouldn't seem quite right. That said, I think a competent, war hungry, human player could quite easily achieve a Domination Victory with Thrace.

A didrachma for your thoughts:
Recruiting Thracian mercenaries (Cavalry/skirmishers) could be a nice touch for the Greeks.

Thrace can be challenged by Macedon and Chersonessos together. It's interesting to watch from Lemnos as the Thracians and Lydians send troops to each other's territory across the sea and they get slaughtered upon landing.

With Lydia, you're right. They kind of stand in for two civs - Lydia and then Persia. They both gobbled up Asia Minor in their own times. I considered long and hard whether to actually put Persia in there, swapping them in for one of the more minor 31 civs. But I'm still not convinced that the AI can be made to behave in the same way the armies of Darius and Xerxes did during the Greco-Persian Wars ie. launch a targetted attack at Attika by land and sea and then retreat completely back to Asia Minor(*). There must be a way of doing this, but I think it would be very difficult to achieve with any kind of accuracy that satisfies. I'd be quite up for someone taking the upgrade and trying to make that happen though. For now, Lydia(/Persia) threatening to win the game - every time - kind of provides that same contest for the victory.

Place unseen, undiscoverable items that would enable them Persians to build Wonders and improvements. The AI will be able to see them and if it can use them it will attack.
Ask Plotinus for more details on the way he did it in The Rood and the Dragon, it's what I remember off the top of my head.

If you want to force an invasion at a given point in time, the autoproduction system from RFRE might help you build up a large force at a certain point in time. Blasted Firaxis civ number hardcoding!

Here's a request for info and thoughts from people who've played this a number of times:

How long do you think the game should be? 450, 500, 550 turns? More?

I'd like to know how close people have come to winning or losing and at roughly at what turn that happened. I need to hear thoughts on making enough space and time for a Hegemonic Victory to be possible.

I'm also considering dropping the Tribute Victory requirement down to 50k or 55k. Please share your thoughts and experiences.

FYI - I have boosted the cost of all the later techs quite significantly and also made many untradeable, so progress through the tech tree will happen much slower.

I hope Iron Working isn't delayed by much because it was known for quite some time. Of course this is a sandbox so I might just choose to use only the Polemistes for attack and defense.

Yes indeed. The AI can't win with them but a human can. They have received three new 'leg ups' toward a Tribute Victory, making them a much more appealing civ to play with:

(1) They have a new UU called the Delphic Priest who enslaves to Temple Offerings.
(2) Their unique wonder the Delphic Oracle now produces Temple Offerings.
(3) They have 3 of the new Colony Wonders: Massalia, Hyene and Emporion. Massalia produces Taxation and Emporion produces Libation Wine.

If this keeps up I'll have to play all 31 civs, not just Athinai, Thevai and Dodekanesa.

Keep us posted! And do please share your thoughts on length of game and victories.

I will. For now, I think that 60,000 Tribute might be too much. 40's too low, any warmonger can get there. 50 or 55 might be easier. Depends on ho many new Tirbute improvements you include in the next version.

How about cultural victories?

I see the Colony Wonders: will we ever get to see Magna Græcia or Mégale Hellas? Siracusa/Syrakoúsai might be a real contender (which, historically, it was!).

So...

Last night I was rereading parts of the greece-persia wars. And found a note starting that the alince that went to Platea represented only 5% of Greek city-states... wth...

The major ones went to war, but since every city had its own authorities then it's quite a number.

Anyway, I found something else: the actual cost of a trireme. I've known for some time that these ships were, for their age, very expensive, mainly because of the crew: 200 men, mostly hired. But the book put it in costs: each trireme cost, on average, the equivalent (in 2008 prices) to £350.000 per year:suicide: no wonder only the richest states could get them!

So, I was wondering... how about raising the cost of the triremes in the game? It would be more realistic.

You think biremes and tetraremes and such weren't that expensive? All ships were expensive.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I can't get over how many city states there were... wth did the greeks do? Call every set of 2-3 shacks a city?!

Geography. Lots of mountains/ small valleys - way more than the game map suggests. Also, direct democracy gets difficult when not everyone fits into the ampitheatre.

How long do you think the game should be? 450, 500, 550 turns? More?

I'd like to know how close people have come to winning or losing and at roughly at what turn that happened. I need to hear thoughts on making enough space and time for a Hegemonic Victory to be possible.

FWIW, been playing but not reporting. Everything seems to be posted by others - well written & more thorough than I could do.

I tend to play long games in general. I'll even edit scenarios to extend the time. On such a large map with so many well established civs it takes quite a while to dominate. Longer get's my vote. Granted I've been playing as smaller states - most recently Ithaka. Using a colonize, sacrifice territory, retrench, retaliate strategy. It's interesting to see how they do - even if it's just survive til the end of the game.

 

[Sasebo]

Here's a request for info and thoughts from people who've played this a number of times:

How long do you think the game should be? 450, 500, 550 turns? More?

I'd like to know how close people have come to winning or losing and at roughly at what turn that happened. I need to hear thoughts on making enough space and time for a Hegemonic Victory to be possible.

I'm also considering dropping the Tribute Victory requirement down to 50k or 55k. Please share your thoughts and experiences.

FYI - I have boosted the cost of all the later techs quite significantly and also made many untradeable, so progress through the tech tree will happen much slower.

I didn't finish any of my games completely, but I generally feel longer is better myself. I wouldn't change the tribute victory conditions until you get feedback on the next version, as Takhisis points out you are adding a bunch more tribute-generating things, so you have to see how those work into the whole first.

Also, If people are playing at different difficulty levels(likely), it can be hard to make things work the way you want them unless they mention the level they play at in their reports. I forget exactly which levels I was playing at, but it wasn't very high.

You know I forgot to mention that when I looked at that confederation phalanx unit I thought that was wicked cool with all those different shield types, that is a neat looking unit.

 

[Takhisis]

A new update. We are slightly ascendant since Lydia fails to conquer Thrake or Chersonesos but the rise of the land powers of Makedonia, Aetolia and Illyria poses a challenge. Illyria is gobbling up Thrake from the West as we speak. Makedonia continues to strengthen their hold. Sparte, with their communal Diarchy, is productive everywhere. Aetolia is fighting it toe-to-toe with Sparte on land and has a powerful navy. See our graphs comment on 358 BC.

Spoiler :

366 BC
We move some of our workers inland to escape the raids of the Kerkyraioi. Those people are nasty, and they have 4.3.6 Triremes.

The good thing about the Argioi having forced our hand is that we now have Argeads and Troezens.

I cannot believe the Troes are still using the Logchophoros and Akonistes. Truly the Lydoi have reduced them to a degeneerate race.

We take 8 Talents and a World Map from Aetolia. We still do not understand what drove our former friends to declare war on us.
Cheap, huh? A bloodless war at long last.

We storm through the defenders of Thera.
Their capital moves to Syphnos.

Ithake and Troia, Thevai and Troia sign Trade Embargoes against us.
Ithake and Dodekanesa, Thessalia and Aetolia sign peace treaties.
Kerkyra joins Makedonia in their war against the Lydoi.
Ithake and Thrake sign peace treaties.

We attain the Fealty of Boeotia at Eleusis.

365 BC
We cave in to war weariness. The Kykladitai concede Iulos (Denusa), Tenos (Astipálaia North-west) and their entire Treasury (Nine Talents) tin order to attain peace.

We aim to build the Klerouchos in Chalkis, and we exchange our extra Delian Tribute for Sparte's Messenians.

Thessalia joins Makedonia against the Lydoi.

364 BC
City Guard appears to be buildable only in cities with population of 6 or less. So we conscript and Euboian fron Chalkis and everything's solved.

Aetolia and Troia sign a trade embargo against us.
We finally manage to sign an ROP treaty with Epeiros so their silly colonies in the Aegean don't impede the progress of our Taxation and tributes.
And agent of Philippos of Makedonia is caught attempting to steal technology from us! Oh the cheek. These Northerners must pay.

363 BC
Some of the troops left over from the conquest of Thássos are relieved by our Confedeerate Hopltie and ferried across the sea to Samothráke.

Dodekanesa and Kyklades sign a peace treaty.
Messenia declares war on Dodekanesa at the behest of the Makedonai.

362 BC
The Troes have 15 defenders on Samothrake. We cannot hope to overcome them at this point, not without Medicines.
We have fourteen transports and it's not enough.

At present, we are judged to be stronger than Thrake and Makedonia. Sparte and Lydia still outclass us by far, except for the speed of our vessels.

We sign an ROP with the Illyrioi.
They have Phocians and Illyrians as tradeable resources but, alas, they have signed an embargo against us.
An attack by the Dodekanesioi on an Aetolian colony forces us once more into conflict with Aetolia. Oh.
We discover Medicine and now intend to develop a Standing Army!

361 BC
Our troops withdraw from Samothráke as planned.

37248 to 34880, Sparte trail us at 31338.

Aetolia and Dodekanesa sign a peace treaty. Whaaaat?
Chersonesos joins Makedonia against the Lydoi. And then, against Dodekanesa. *facepalm.jpg*
Epeiros and Thrake sign a peace treaty.
Our MPP forces us to declare war on Chersonesos. Batten down hatches, the barbarians are coming!

--------------------------------------
360 BC
We make peace with the Kerkyraidiotai.
Then we hurry the constructio of a City Guard on Thássos. The Tributes from Pangaion will pay for it with the next convoy and we need to defend the place, both the defence bonusplus the occasional Hypaspist will do us good.

Trade Embargo against us between Thevai and Illyria ends.
Dodekanesa and Illyria sign a peace treaty.
Lydia makes Epeiros declare war on Makedonia.
We exchange Territory Maps with the Ithakes and their queen has pleasure dealing with us. We have even more pleasure after we exchange world maps.
Lydia sign peace treaties with Krete and Ithake.
The Kykladitai sign an alliance against Makedonia. Time to get in the Makedonai's good books.
Aetolia and Thrake sign peae treaties.

359BC
We carry on ferrying Tribute and troops back and forth across the islands.

Thrake and Chersonesos sign a peace treaty.

We finish building a City Guard on Chalkis! Now for the klerouchos in 12 turns' time.

The Rhodian idiots have attacked Kerkyra again and we're at war with them. Just after we'd made a peace with those pirates...

358BC
One Demosthenes, a Great Leader, arises in the fighting near Kebrene.

Chíos, Furnoi, Thássos, Amorgós, Náxos, Nio, Páros, Tenos, Andros, are our different tributing islands. They pay Tribute in the form of Wines and Libations and Taxes and Temple Offerings and we provide them with the safety of the powerful Athenian Navy. We wish we could extend this protection to land-based colonies but this is not the case.
Still, Kleonai, Nemea, Thevai, Piraios, Brauron, Oropos, Eleusis and Athinai herself contirbute as part of our mainlands producers, also the cities of Dekelea, Eretria, Dystos and karystos from our sister island of Euboia contribute to our wealth.
We are 2600 Tribute points ahead of the Lydoi (37792 to 35180).

The graphs are a lie. We are nearly as powerful as Sparte and far stronger than Makedonia but we know either could just mop the floor with us.

Lokris declares war against Makedonia.

We complete the Proxenoi Lodge in the island of Amorgós.

357BC
We notice the Aetolioi and kerkyraioi prowling around the Kyklades and Sporades in search for plunder. This is dangerous, our navy is more powerful than theirs but it's mostly strung out in convy escort operations instead of in battle groups. Our shipyards change tack.

We attempt negotiations with the Troes. They offer 11 Talents which is not enough but we find out we could also press them to give us passage through their waters. Would make room for interesting maneouvres against Chersonessos and their grain.

Another Confederate Division arrives in Thevai.

We sign a Right of Passage treaty with Jason of the Thettaloi.

Kyklades and Lydia signa peace treaty.
The Aetolioi start arriving at the borders of our Boeotian territories.
Why do the Spartiatai concentrate so many troops around Nemea? We are used to seeing them pass on the way to Oenoe but this is too much.

356BC
As we cash in another four Tributes we decide to convince Leonidas to sign an alliance against Aetolia. We must become brothers in arms onece more!
We give them Unity.

There's sporadic fighting and skirmishes along our borders:
The 'big' column the Aetolians have sent consists of four Aetolian Javelineers and two of the naked men. We pepper the last Javelineer with our Gymnitoi on a matter of principle, taking two HP off him.
The Aetolians have seven Triremes and the Kerkyraioi have another one. We sink a lone Aetolian Trireme off Brauron, where Makrónesos is.
We realise our city fo Torone is safe from Chersonesian depredation because of a Spartan city, Apollonia Chalkidiké, occupying the entire isthmus leading to it.
The Laeaeans are probably headed for our Phokian colony north of Mt. Pelio, Echidamia.
We take down another two defenders on Kebrene/Imro and they have only a double Akonistes left.

Dodekanesa and Troia sign a peace treaty.
Epeiros and Aetolia have a trade embargo against us. The Epeirotai are playing both ends, they have a ROP with us and Embargoes against us. How can someone be so duplicitous?
Troia signs a peace treaty with Lydia. This indicates Dodekanesa sought out the Troes for a peace. We shall see about this.

Dozens of divisions march from the Peloponnesos towards the North.
Two Toxotai and an Akonistes move from Ithoria on the southern end of Astypálaia towards our city of Tenos to the north-east.
We pilfer Oligarchy from someone!

355BC
We dispose of another Aetolian Skirmisher and of an Ionian Hoplite which was sent to take the marble north of Thevai. Why does the AI insist on attacking that tile instad of Thevai? I have EIGHT sources of Marble.
Another three Athenian Hoplites and a Mixtos Toxotes are at the gates of Nemea to reinforce our garrison there.
We defeat the Kerkyraioi betwen Évboia and Ándros. Now we can use the island of Ándros itself as a defense to performe maneouvres to evade the Aetolian fleet.
We cash in another convoy from Thásos.

39498 Tribute to 35922 to 32336. We have taken the leade.

Alarming news from the North. Aetolia took a couple cities from the Thrakai's westernmost possessions some time ago, but now the Illyrioi have managed to strike in a much more coordinated way against them than when they descended upon civilised nations.
Lacking the defense-and-counterpunch coordination that made the Athinai-Sparte aliance so successful, the Thrakai crumble and have lost seven cities to the Illyrioi already.

The Lokroi offer to sign an embargo against Thrake. That, we cannot do. But exchange maps, we can.
The attack on Astypálaia is stopped, effortlessly. We are grateful for the technological prowess that allows on single Thorakites to hold two enemy Toxotai.
Thevai and Makedonia join against Lokris!
As usual, the Spartiatai engage the Aetolioi and lose not a single unit to them.
Also, an Akonistes and a Gymnitos are landed on Astypálaia next to Ithoria.

354 BC
The Illyrioi have taken another city from the Thrakai.
We battle throuh most of the Aetolioi. Like Astérix, we want everyone to have fun so we leave some for the Aetolioi.

39748 to 35922. Almost 4k of Tribute!
What would happen if the Lydoi managed to gain a toehold on Gallipoli or any other location across the sea of Marmara? I shudder to think of that.
We expend 560 Talents to hire extra workers to help build the Nine Ways Garrison on Thásos.

We notice the Aetolioi are pursuing our fleet no longer but that of the Spartiatai.
The Trade embargo against us between Thevai and Aetolia ends.
Kerkyra and Lydia sign a peace treaty.
The Spartiatai have at the remained of the Aetolioi and massacre them. Then they decide to engage the lone Akonistes on Astypálaia instead of trying to take Ithoria. WTH?
Karia and Ithake then sign an alliance against the Kerkyraioi.
Dodekanesa declares war on the Troes again.
Hypaipa2, long ago conquered by the Troes from the Lydoi in the battle of Lesbos, is now once again in the hands of the latter.
A ship from Lesbos approaches Chíos. THeir intentions are not good.

353BC
Not so bad! We take down another Akonistes from Ithoria with an amphibious attack and then land with a Thorakites, Champion and Gymnitos.

We sign a Right of passage treay with the Makedonai, we give them Civics and they give us Macedonians.

The Troes take Silandos. The city was ungarrisoned. Why? Because, due to some strange quirk of the game, any garrisoned city stands a much higher chance of flipping. So, we'll now come in, the army's been encamped just outside the city since the last time we had to retake it from under Croesus' hands.
Thessalia and Kerkyra sign a trade embargo against us.
Illyria wants us to declare an embargo against goods from Thrake. This is not sound economic policy so we must refuse.
The Spartiatai hold their lines admirably against the theoretically superior navy of Aetolia. Sadly, their proud warrior culture results in them leaving an Akonistes stranded behind on Astypálaia with nowhere to go.

We form a Standing Army. We plan to reach the Tribute advance within six turns even though we lose 60 Talents per turn. We can afford it after cashign in 749 from last turn at end-of-research.
The Thureophoros is a smashing unit! In eithe rmeaning of 'smashing', mind you.

352BC
Our Confederate Hoplite reaches Nemea. Now the city has them helped by a backbone of five Athenian Hoplites and a Thorakites.

Question: why does 'Curetes' enable Aetolian camp instead of 'Aetolians'?

We remain the only ones tohave attained the fealty of anywhere! But there's no victory screen .

 

[Takhisis]

Our pathetically idiotic but lovable Dodekanesian allies end up dragging us into new wars with our old enemies Kerkyra and Lydia. We are again at war with the Boeotians at Plataia. What fate shall befallour great nation? Shall we avenge the lokroi and remove the pesky Boeotians from Plataia and reach Delphi? Shall the Thrakai manage to survive the rampaging Illyrioi? Could the Aetolioi escape the encroaching invasion from Makedonia and Sparte? Will Odysseus survive this latest challenge from the nefarious forces of Fate? Find out tomorrow at the same bat-hour, on the same bat-channel!

Spoiler :

352BC
Our Confederate Hoplite reaches Nemea. Now the city has them helped by a backbone of five Athenian Hoplites and a Thorakites.

Ithoria has five units of the Akonistes. Well, one, really, after we cut four of them down.
Apparently, there's a Tribute to be captured on Ithoria. Success! This indicates there already is a productive vineyard in the place.

We have a *slight* problem. We have asked the Thevaioi to withdraw a ship that was blockading the Euboian straits (an ineffectual blockade since their Bireme was anchored in front of the harbour of Chalkis, so our ships just entered harbour and went out the other way). They have refused and have declared war on us, just as of 352 BC.
Thevai has Thorakites × 4 and an unupgraded Hoplite, and we've checked the defenses at Plataia which consist of tree Hoplites and nothign else. They either have a humungous army up at Lokris or are very, very weak.
We send out all the Gymnitoi to weaken the Hoplite on Wine Hill between Plataia and Thevai. Then we take him down with a Hypaspist. We capture three Douloi who were attempting to conquer the place!
A double Thorakites reinforces the Hypaspist on Wine Hill. the captured workers are escorted by the column of Gymnitoi and another Thorakites.

We reconquer Silandos very easily. Chíos is OURS.

The Tribute race: we lead the Lydoi and Spartiates by 41160 to 36418 to 34598 respectively. Makedonia is a very distant fourth with 22004, Thrake and Illyria are still in the running for the UEFA Cup at 15508 ad 13524 respectively.

Unfortunately, the entire fleet from Sparte is sunk on the Ionian Sea while we can do nothing but watch in despair. The Aetolian fleet is fearsome.
The Lydoi sink a Chersonesian transport that might have threatened Imro.
Makedonia joins Sparte against the Aetolioi. Those great half-Illyrians must submit now!
Messenia and Makedonia join against the remainder of the Epeirotai.
Dodekanesa respects its pact with us and declares war on the Thevaioi.

351 BC
Apparently EVERY Akonistes had seized a Libation Wine.
That's FOUR Tributes captured!

The city of Chersonesos itself, the capital of the southern neighbours of the Thrakai, is guarded by Agrianian Spearmen, our scouting ships manage to discover. Alas, we could not make such a conquest at this point in time. We shall need reinforcements.

Heavy bombardment by our Gymnitoi in Plataia destroys the city walls!

The Chersonesioi offer a peace treaty. We take it. No casualties, no compensationr equired. We are magnanimous.
The same happens with the Kerkyraioi.
Messenia joins Sparte against Aetolia.
We are astounded to hear that the Thettaloi have now declared war on Lokris.
Three Champions make their appearance on the Plataian plains.

350 BC.
We retreat across the river into our territory while our Gymnitoi cover us and take 7 out of 18 HP from the three Champions the Thevaioi have sent.
A Confederate division moves northwards to provide as much support as possible -either in offense or in defense.

We begin construction of Alexander's Conquests at Orchomenos.

Two Champions attack two of ours at the border. Each side loses a Champion.
Lydia and Chersonesos sign a peace treaty.
We complete our Hippocratic Theory in Athinai.

349 BC
The Illyrioi have already taken ten cities from the THrakai and burned another one to the ground last turn.

Fighting continues along the Pink borders. We take down the surviving two Champions at the cost of our Hypaspist's life. We haven't been able to train Thureophoroi yet.

The Thevaioi destroy the Lokroi. Poor Jason.
The Dodekanesioi ask us to attack the Chersonesioi. We cannot at this juncture. We deeply regret being unable to turn to our allies' help in their time of need, but the dangers of a land war with the Thevaioi are too terrible.
Kerkyra and the Kyklades sign a peace treaty.

348 BC
Fighting is still indecisive.

Aetolia declares ar on Kerkyra!
Dodekanesa joins Epeiros agains the Lydoi. Cue our upcoming reinvolvement in the Eastern front.

Longevity completed in Karystos!
Troops from Kerkyra fighting the Dodekanesioi force us into a new war with Kerkyra. *facepalm*
Then it happens with Lydia. We tremble...

 

[iPwn]

I started many games with various civs, all only at monarch difficulty ( so I would feel comfortable while I am learning how this works). Abandoned my games with Sparta and Lydia when I realised that playing those at any level below Sid is an autowin. Had to abandon games with Karia and Troy, since they are just too horrible - extreme corruption, no fresh water, problems with strategic resources, lack of bonus food.

Tried playing Thrake and Illyria - Thrake is good, but AI is not capable to do very well with them. What I think is the best thing to do with Thrake is - Diarchy government, settler spam, war with Chersonesos to leader fish and when you get one - use it to move capital somewhere near fresh water close to Macedon. Illyria is fine below demigod - just build one settler, settle near marble, then some workers and build Temple of Demeter.

Aiolia seems to be the only civ that can take out Lydia early, but Lydian land is so good that it felt like I was playing Deity. Still they whipped their towns to size one, they got an entertainer and that was the end of Lydia. Aiolian capital with potter wheel can spit out toxotis every turn, so you need to stop building settlers early, build workers to improve land near capital and get it to size 12 asap.

The only game I actually finished was with Argos - they are better than they appear. Capital is only size 6 before ducts, but it does almost 30 shields per turn. With duct it is second best shield producer in game (behind Sparta). I just brokered techs and after switching to Diarchy had about 1200 talents, which I used to rush camps. So, 20 turns later I had 6 or 7champions, golden age, swarm of argive swords, the mother of all free techs Invention ( Argos is scientific) , so Sparta went down like a cheap *****. Messenia, Elis, Corinth, Thevai, Phokis, Thessalia and Aetolia followed soon. I think I won around 400 bc (Hegemon), which was about 30 turns later than I could have, if Ionian fealty components were for sale - but no I had to build that mega fleet and sail there(Argos - Navarch every turn!). Had about 50k tribute, so that VC was also an option, just needed to kill, say, Epeiros. Even though I had plenty of vineyards and sanctuaries, I only got about 5000 out of 50 000 that way - clearly they are utterly useless improvements you need to pay maintenence for and invest shields in. Never going to build those again unless they get buffed. Game was slow in the end - I bet autoproduced gymnitoi have something to do with it. When tiny Macedon, one of the weakest civs, decided to sneak attack me just before the end, they had about 70 of them.

There is one problem with this scenario. If you are switching from Diarchy to some other government, you are only hurting yourself. I see people are talking about Athenai being challenging to play. What? They are like 3 times stronger than Argos. Yes, I can see a problem if someone wants to 'roleplay' and suddenly switch to Democracy with high war weariness and no unit support. Alternative is this - chose Diarchy and stay there all game. If your warmongering goes ok, you will soon have like 150 towns, all with smithy and boule, which means that below Sid you are outproducing all other civs combined.

But I understand minor errors can happen and scenario has been very enjoyable and I will play some more. Thanks!

 

[Takhisis]

Diarchy is a warmongerer's government. If you're aiming for any other kind of victory they're not the best option. Long live the Athinaioi free men and their democracy!