[Help]genuinely puzzled

noontide

Warlord
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
267
Hi,

I've been playing Civilization for years and am permanently stuck at warlord level. Every time I play on the Noble level, I'll lead the score in the first 100 turns or so and soon fall to the bottom. Why does this happen? How is the score calculated? Is there any point keep playing if your score is at the bottom? Thanks.
 
Is there any point keep playing if your score is at the bottom? Thanks.

There is every reason to play when your score is less than ideal. Score doesn't mean anything aside from relative standings in terms of populations, territory, army power, economy, etc. If you're confident with how your empire is going and know you can achieve victory, ignore the score. It has no affect on you on a turn-by-turn basis.
 
Hi Noontide! Welcome to CivFanatics! :)

How is the score calculated?

I'd refer you to Dianthus' post on this.

It's a "can of worms" debate, but while a handy indicator of how you're game's going, don't read too much into the score unless you're approaching the end of the game and 2050AD is in sight and you're looking at a 'Time' victory.

"Score" doesn't understand strategy and doesn't have a vision for what you're about to do. It's a barometer of some of the aspects of the game, but doesn't really give the full picture and isn't much of an indicator of how things will necessarily pan out - a few battles can significantly change the shape of the game and the scorecard.

Once you get to Prince and above, you'll expect to start behind the AI tribes in score, and could stay in the bottom half for quite a while. Floundering towards the bottom usually does not mean that the game is a lost cause at all, but you'll probably need to take some chunks out of the AIs' empires in order to build 'crital mass' to be more competitive.

Some victory types do not require an especially good score - for intance most of my Cultural victories have been won from the middle of the score list.

I'd invite you to check out some of the games posted on these forums. The Stategies and Tips forum usually has a few active games going, but the Succession Games forum might also be worth checking out. Reading Sisiutil's Strategy Guide for Beginners would probably be worth your while if you've yet to see it.

Best of luck!

[Edit] I can't believe I cross-posted again! [/Edit]
 
Thanks for the tip!
Actually I've read a lot of strategy guide, but my game just doesn't improve. My typical scenario is I race to do research, so I'm usually far ahead of the AI in technology, but i suck at building relationship, and always have weak army, so they always declare war on me. But if i choose to build a strong army, my economy stalls. really frustrating.

How long do you have to learn to be good at this game? I started play civilization with III, and have been playing BtS for 3 months now.
 
You don't have to be leading in research to win. You can also win when you are on par or even behind the AI. I used to lose games because i thought research was everything but I neglected my army. Try to do some warmongering with e.g. the Romans (go pretoreans!) I learned from it. Good luck
 
1) Build more military

2) Build more cottages

These are two things that lower-level players don't do enough of. The first city you found after your capital ideally should claim horses or copper and should be a decent production city (see my thread on city specialization). It should build a monument then a barracks then produce troops non-stop for the rest of the game. Exceptions include: A granary (preferably chopped) when you have enough initial defenders; health and happiness buildings (preferably whipped) when needed. This city, if it has good enough production potential, should get the Heroic Epic as soon as you have it available. Really, really, you want to be producing troops here non-stop as much as you can. There will come a point where you think you have enough, but you don't. I STILL underestimate the troops I will need and I've played on monarch for years now.

Also, commerce cities (see my thread on city specialization) are necessary to keep your economy chugging along all game long. Your 2nd or 3rd city after your capital should be a commerce city, although you want to be looking for a gpfarm as well (see thread).
 
Thanks, you guys are really helpful. This is one of my saved game, can someone please take a look and tell me what i did wrong? thanks!
 

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It takes 4 months to learn to be good at this game.

Well, that is if you decide to sleep. Civ IV is my first Civ experience (though I'm familiar with the "type" of game it is - anyone remember Warlords II from the 90s??).

But ya, that was like, maybe 1.5 months ago that I got Civ IV, and it took me a few days before I got BTS.

Fast forward and I'm about to leave the warm, comfortable embrace of Noble and get to Prince. I got some basics down for the specialist economy, teching, various gambits and war.

One area I need to improve on is the late-game, mainly because I've been working at perfecting my early-middle game and working to get over the problem described by the original poster: namely, staving off war and if I engage in war, keeping my economy going.

Now - this has been an INTENSIVE 1.5 months. I'm consistently going to work on 2-3 hours of sleep - cancelling plans with friends and somehow, fitting a little time in with the GF there somewhere.

Tonight I expect I'll get home after work.. maybe catnap for an hour or so... and BURN THAT MIDNIGHT OIL!! I've been distracted with non-video game related hobbies (like spinning wax) and it feels nice to be back in a full blown video game addiction after a few years without it. It seems this time I may have it worse than ever. If Civ IV could be injected intravenously I would do it.

A few suggestions for getting past the "warring economy slump"

  • Pick your battles. Surgical, limited wars that conquer a few neighbouring cities and end in peace or vassalage are preferable to drawn out conflicts. If your opponent has 7 or 8 cities and its early in the timeline still you probably won't have the economy yet to be able to absorb all 7 or 8. Bonus points for capturing a city with good resources. Also consider what enemy cities are close by - you can end up HAVING to take over a lot more than you thought because the cultural influence of their remaining cities is choking the new one you captured.
  • The counterpoint to the above point is that "picking your battles" can result in sometimes waiting too long to get your massive stack ready, and by the time it finally gets into enemy territory your opponent has teched up and has longbows or something. So part of "picking your battles" means not being afraid to "jump in" a bit. If your goal is a limited capture of a few cities, you may not need 40 units!
  • If this is a common concern I'd suggest picking a leader with traits that can help out with economy issues: either Organized or Financial
  • Work on getting some serious commerce, either in your capital or an early city you found (this means cottages and settling an area with gold/gem/silver
  • Don't be afraid to raze.
  • Razing will get you some diplomatic negatives - but if you complain of being declared on I'm guessing you might be misplaying the AI. Really pay attention to religion, convert if necessary (even if you founded the religion you're on currently) and sometimes it pays to give away freebie techs/extra resources/gold if it means Monty will start liking you.

EDIT: I was playing on large or huge maps only for the longest time. One thing that helped my warring was to play a standard or smaller Pangaea map. Really forces you into early battles - and you're likely to get a close neighbour, which is nice for practising that early axe rush.
 
With the quickest of glances at your save, it's obvious that city placement is your biggest problem by far. You need to give higher priority (in fact, the highest priority) to food when choosing your city sites. Just by doing that, you'll improve by at least one difficulty level.

On this game, many of your cities are food poor, and yet within your borders there are no less than three food bonuses unclaimed by any city's radius. You've also failed to workboat one of your clam tiles.

Always remember: when choosing where to plant a city, and when developing a city once settled, food comes first. If you must settle a site with no food bonus, then make sure you can get some farms down to ensure growth.

Other than that, I need to take a closer look at your strategy. Back soon...
 
Thanks. I'll be waiting for more suggestion. one more question, i'm always swamped by AI armies, often they come with 20+ troops. How could they manage to build such a big army in so short of a time?
I'm decidedly a peaceful guy, and i do bare minimum to defend myself, never initiate war. I prefer space race. Is that a losing way to play, do you HAVE to wage war to be able to build in peace?

Always remember: when choosing where to plant a city, and when developing a city once settled, food comes first. If you must settle a site with no food bonus, then make sure you can get some farms down to ensure growth.

Other than that, I need to take a closer look at your strategy. Back soon...
 
Thanks. I'll be waiting for more suggestion. one more question, i'm always swamped by AI armies, often they come with 20+ troops. How could they manage to build such a big army in so short of a time?
I'm decidedly a peaceful guy, and i do bare minimum to defend myself, never initiate war. I prefer space race. Is that a losing way to play, do you HAVE to wage war to be able to build in peace?

Well - if you want to build in peace then you need to do two things: really pay close attention to the diplomacy AND build enough military units to not look like "easy pickings".

Other more experienced players with their notebooks filled with formulas taken from the game code (and scientific calculators and pocket protectors)can probably tell you how much you need for the AI to make the "hes a little too strong for me to attack" calculation - but I'd say one thing to try would be to leave your central cities with not so many units and your border cities well stocked.

You don't HAVE to war to build in peace but you have to "look strong". Another problem is if all you're doing is building wonders AND you're not building an army, well you're just making yourself a juicier plum for the taking!

Judging from your posts here I'd say its safe to say that your probably not building as many military units as you should be. Scout out your close neighbours and keep an eye on them - how many units do they have (espionage can help with this if funded well enough by mid-game)? Make enough units so that their stack would not be guaranteed a victory.

How about your diplomatic game? Do you gift things to the AI? Do you convert to the religion of the stronges/most aggressive players?
 
Man... I give gifts to AIs like it's year-round X'mas. Gold, sheep, corn, silk, free technologies, you name it. I convert my whole freaking nation on-demand. And they still attack me. Ungrateful bastards. It really makes me feel like a wuss.
One problem i have though, is that it seems i'm always pressed for time. I feel i have no time to build an army, cause the stronger AIs are always on my heel in research, and i DO want those wonders to boots my GP points. how to balance?

How about your diplomatic game? Do you gift things to the AI? Do you convert to the religion of the stronges/most aggressive players?
 
only give gifts to AI you want to keep as friends as almost all of them will eventually be enemies. when you attack, go with big numbers, not 4 / 5 axes but 12 axes. its more important to guarantee taking a city than lag trying to bring up reinforcements. attack early and often. after first conquests, go currenty / code of laws rebuild economy. once back on track, war again with next closest neighbor. rinse and repeat until victory.
 
only give gifts to AI you want to keep as friends as almost all of them will eventually be enemies. when you attack, go with big numbers, not 4 / 5 axes but 12 axes. its more important to guarantee taking a city than lag trying to bring up reinforcements. attack early and often. after first conquests, go currenty / code of laws rebuild economy. once back on track, war again with next closest neighbor. rinse and repeat until victory.

Does anyone have info on how the AI reacts to a war you're conducting against someone?

If you lose few units and take a few cities - does this count towards an "intimidation factor" that could prevent future declarations of war?

And while I think your advice is sound - some players seem to do OK on a peaceful route - I think the key to their success is making enough units so that AI players don't see them as easy pickings

EDIT: one thing noontide - if you're waiting for a demand to convert - you may want to pre-empt that earlier. Take a look at the power structure - if Izzy or another zealot is powerful consider converting before they demand. When I look at my diplomatic relations the "we care for our brothers and sisters of the faith" bonus goes up over time... They may be declaring because this bonus hasn't had enough time to outweigh the negatives
 
I've had two games I won in which I was never at war, ever, and in both those games I was head of a sizable religious bloc and was number 1 militarily for most of the game.
 
I've got a lot of criticisms to make, but, so it doesn't seem like I'm just slating your abilities, I should say first of all that you're not that far off being a useful player. The stuff below is mostly very easily addressed, and, most importantly, it looks like you already have a solid grasp of many of the key elements of the game.

Okay. Brace yourself... ;)

1) Resources not improved

2xClams (food!), Furs (happiness!), Copper (!?!)

You've now teched IW and mined the Iron, but why didn't you claim the Copper as soon as it showed up?

2) Not enough exploring

You should've explored further early on, but even if that wasn't possible you've now got Open Borders...

3) Settling one tile from coast

Settling one tile from the coast (as is the case for your capital) is usually a bad move (mainly because you can't build a lighthouse). But when Clams are one of only two food resources in the city radius? :cry:

I see you settled in 4000bc, but did you settle in place?

If so, and you couldn't see the clams, then it's a mix of bad luck and inexperience. You should be able to see quite clearly when there are sea tiles just inside the Fog (especially when there's a river running into them), and so you should always explore that direction before settling.

If, on the other hand, you moved from the coast to where you settled, then it's a very :smoke: move, I'm afraid.

4) A lot more workers needed

Waiting for three workers to improve a whole empire will slow your game down immensely.

No less than one worker per city is a good rule of thumb.

This is also an important reason why food-heavy sites (inc. that sheep/corn site to the west) are so incredibly valuable early on: food bonuses = faster production of workers (& settlers, of course).

5) Use your civics

You've only opened up Slavery, Caste System and Organised Religion so far, but you've yet to adopt any of them.

With judicious use of the whip (combined with that food thing I mentioned before) you could have had more troops, more workers and/or more buildings by this time.

Alternatively, with Caste System you could've saved yourself building monuments everywhere (by using an Artist specialist until the border pops), and sped up GP generation by running Merchants and/or Scientists. (Again, more food would be necessary to take full advantage).

And, with OR, you could've spammed missionaries to boost your shrine income (and convert other civs - see below), and to speed up production of the buildings you need.

6) A different state religion to everyone else.

Unless you're so powerful you can afford to ignore diplomacy altogether, this is a MASSIVE problem. Either stay without a religion, adopt an AI-friendly religion, or try to convert a couple of other civs to your religion. Otherwise you are doomed to end up as the world's whipping boy.

7) Too much tech, not enough development or military

You're building your house on sand if you tech as fast as possible with little or no regard for the development of your lands, your cities, and your military.

You have way too many unimproved tiles, too few buildings in many of your cities, and far too weak an army for this point in the game.

With such a weak basis, it's no surprise that your early lead quickly evaporates, and you present a tempting target for the AI's units.

Which leads me on to the final, most important point:

For each and every decision you make, always ask yourself: "What am I actually trying to achieve here?"

Fast teching alone is pointless if you never take advantage of the techs you research.

Strong empires win games, and getting the techs required to take your empire up a notch is, of course, one of the keys to building a strong empire. But it doesn't look like you've paid much attention to leveraging the techs you've researched to strengthen your empire.

Normally, I'd assume that this was evidence of a lack of strategic planning, but it does look like you have a fairly coherent strategy going on, despite the problems I've listed.

So I'm thinking that maybe you have a variation of the old "buildoholic" syndrome. But instead of the typical "I must build every building" mentality, you seem to want to research every tech as soon as possible.

Many of the issues listed above could be dealt with quite easily, provided you can value techs by the benefits they can give to your empire, and strive to maximise those benefits, rather than shooting off to grab the next tech as fast as you can.

Hope some of that helps. :)

Edit: Wow, I didn't realise how much I wrote... Sorry for the essay. :blush:
 
No, no, those are VERY helpful tips. Thank you very much for taking time to look at my game and write this. There are so many things I can think of doing now that I didn't yesterday.
One more question, how to balance building wonders/city improvements and building army units? Also, i'm terribly indecisive. it's a fresh torture every time when it comes to "what to build next"? forge will be nice, but i kind of need a temple now... that kind of thing. how to set up priority straight? Thanks.

Edit: Wow, I didn't realise how much I wrote... Sorry for the essay. :blush:
 
No, no, those are VERY helpful tips. Thank you very much for taking time to look at my game and write this. There are so many things I can think of doing now that I didn't yesterday.
One more question, how to balance building wonders/city improvements and building army units? Also, i'm terribly indecisive. it's a fresh torture every time when it comes to "what to build next"? forge will be nice, but i kind of need a temple now... that kind of thing. how to set up priority straight? Thanks.

You wanna keep your cities happy and healthy, otherwise they are not maximizing their potential. Take a close look at the happy and health bars on the top of the city screen - do you have unhealthy or unhappy citizens? Consider building a happy or health building if need be (another idea would be to whip a citizen or two if you're under slavery).

If your city is happy and healthy - then what does it do best? Look at the science, gold, culture, espionage levels per turn at the top left. If this city is giving you a lot of gold, consider a bank or a market/grocer. If its a high science city, consider a library/university/observatory. If its a high production city that you plan to pump military units out of - consider a barracks if you don't have one already, otherwise pump out a unit or two!

When it comes to wonders - think about what style of play you're working with. Is your leader spiritual? Then you can probably forget the Cristo R (unless you want to prevent an AI opponent from having it). Is your leader not philosophical? Consider the parthenon to boost GP points...
 
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