HELP! How the heck to i counter this...

[Mu'min]

I had a spy passing through my neighbours lands when he became across this in one of Ragnar's cities...

Now the greeks to the north and to my east are a vassal of ragnar and the russians cities are mainly to the SE, so would i be right in thinking this stack is aimed at me? I can't think of any other target this stack could be aimed at.
How do i counter an army of beserkers?
And i do think ragnar will come after me, despite being friendly, he's attacked two other civ already.
I have logbows, maces, muskets, trebuckets ect and im researching rifles.
I got two good military production cities and one good navy city and im protective - CG I, dril I
Should i switch to war civics and spam...what? muskets? or longbows, cats or trebuckets, maces or camelarchers?
Please help!

 

[madscientist]

First of all a friendly Ragnar may not be heading towards you, but it is prudent to be prepared.

I would say build muskets/catapults (cheaper and more useful than trebs)/spearmen/maces and send mixed stacks along the borders. Hit the stack with the catapults to weaken them, attack with muskets, use the spears as defense against counter attacks from the elephants and maces as defense against the beserkers.

The problem is the greeks are going to be paying a visit also.

Since Ragnar is friendly bribe him into attacking someone else? If he gives you "we have our hands full right now" you know he's going after someone, but if you can negotiate send him off and build your military with better units. Alternatively, have someone declare war on him.

But if he sees a well placed defense (and I am sure he has his spies out there too) he will think twice about attacking a friend.

 

[Hellspark]

To me you/your vassel look like Ragnars the target. That stack also looks like a target. If you could post the save I could take a closer look to try and give more advice - for now it would be to build up the military - quickly.

 

[Hellspark]

To me you/your vassel look like Ragnars the target. That stack also looks like a target. If you could post the save I could take a closer look to try and give more advice - for now it would be to build up the military - quickly.

I mis-read the vassel status - sorry, now I belive you should be really worried (who else would the target be). I agree with Madscientist above about the builds - get started quick. Getting Steel would be a good next choice for research.

 

[Matty R]

I'm not very good at fighting so I don't know if this would be much good to you.

I'd build a defensive line along my border. A full line of Forts linked with roads(Forts can be built in Forests/Jungles in your version can't they?) making use of mountains and water tiles. I'd make sure an enemy couldn't pass through the line without going over a fort. Then I'd get the strongest defensive units I could, with promotions to suit their purpose, and place a stack of 3 or 4 every few tiles along the line, so that once the enemy gets close to the line, stacks can easily move about to block an attack and reinforce.



It always works for me. I once held off a huge stack (about 20 units in total) of English Knights, Catapults, Macemen and Longbowmen using only 4 Phalanx. I had them on forested hills blocking the only land route into my empire. I'd used them for hunting Barbarians in the early days of my civ, so the all had over 50 XP (I altered the XML file to allow 500 XP from Barbarians), Amphibious, Woodsman 2 and Cover promotions, with some having extra Combat or Medic promotions.

The English approached directly from the West, so I placed my 4 Phalanx on hills next to each other in the path of the enemy stack. When the stack got next to the tile in front of my Phalanx line, instead of attacking it moved North 1 tile. So I moved all my Phalanx North 1 tile each. This continued until the stack reached water, where it turned around and did the same as before but South. Eventually I could talk to Lizzy, and we ended the war.

So, erm, I hope this helps.

 

[madscientist]

I'm not very good at fighting so I don't know if this would be much good to you.

I'd build a defensive line along my border. A full line of Forts linked with roads(Forts can be built in Forests/Jungles in your version can't they?) making use of mountains and water tiles. I'd make sure an enemy couldn't pass through the line without going over a fort. Then I'd get the strongest defensive units I could, with promotions to suit their purpose, and place a stack of 3 or 4 every few tiles along the line, so that once the enemy gets close to the line, stacks can easily move about to block an attack and reinforce.



It always works for me. I once held off a huge stack (about 20 units in total) of English Knights, Catapults, Macemen and Longbowmen using only 4 Phalanx. I had them on forested hills blocking the only land route into my empire. I'd used them for hunting Barbarians in the early days of my civ, so the all had over 50 XP (I altered the XML file to allow 500 XP from Barbarians), Amphibious, Woodsman 2 and Cover promotions, with some having extra Combat or Medic promotions.

The English approached directly from the West, so I placed my 4 Phalanx on hills next to each other in the path of the enemy stack. When the stack got next to the tile in front of my Phalanx line, instead of attacking it moved North 1 tile. So I moved all my Phalanx North 1 tile each. This continued until the stack reached water, where it turned around and did the same as before but South. Eventually I could talk to Lizzy, and we ended the war.

So, erm, I hope this helps.

That is an awesome defense!!!! Not sure if it would work with an agressive AI like Ragner who would have probably suicided onto the Phalanx unit.

 

[tempuraki]

How is your relationship with Ragnar anyway, that stack might just be left over from his war with the Greeks.

If you are looking for some other AI to help, it might be easier to bribe someone to attack Greece, who is lower in the power graph so the AI is more likely to agree. Doing so will effectively make them have to deal with Ragnar and his stack. Russia is the perfect candidate for this, and maybe France also.

As for how to deal with the stack head on, clear the jungles next to sparta (2w, and 2w1s). When the stack enters your territory, they should land on one of those two squares. Park your army in the jungle tiles next to those squares (3w of sparta, and 2w2s) so you get the defense bonus and they don't, and attack.

Also, if you really think they are attacking the next turn and need more time to prepare, you can try asking Ragnar for a tribute/gift. if he accepts, you get 10 turns of peace.

 

[Matty R]

That is an awesome defense!!!! Not sure if it would work with an agressive AI like Ragner who would have probably suicided onto the Phalanx unit.

Thanks.

I've only just started playing v1.61 of Vanilla, and from what I've read the AI is much better in BTS, so I'd have to agree with you. It probably wouldn't work.

In that case I'd probably just put all my units into Transports, find a tropical island somewhere and wait for my people to become cannibals.

 

[Diamondeye]

... He's not going to attack you, the stack has just invaded hte land they're on - it's 88% greek. After taking that city, he's vassalized Greece.

Atleast that's what I think.

 

[Mu'min]

All those bezerkers are new. He invaded greece centuries ago with swords and spears, you can just see a greek city i took on the far left of the pic above.
Greece has no army to speak of as far as i can see, unless its parked in some far off city.
No, im afraid that army is brand new and has just arrived in sparta, i saw the berzerkers making their way there not long ago. Ragnar is way ahead of me in power , i have about 2/3 of his power but im way ahead of him in everything else.
Getting other civs to DoW him may be tricky, everyone who is someone is pleased with him, in fact it will probably easier of him to get someone to DoW on me!
Also i have see alot of spy activity, most of them get caught, one was identified as ragnars and i have had two cities poisoned . And someone stole hannibals money, just after he had a great merchant, and just before i was going to , so considering the sudden appearence of lots of berzerkers this may of been ragnar.
I just checked - ragnar says he has his hands full, and he won't stop trading with anyone - they all all close friends So it indeed looks like im the most likey target.
So what is better for forts in woods - Drill I & II and CG I or CG I & II and drill I? i mat be able to get i second promotion in if i switch civics.
One last thing. Should i steal techs from pascal and others?

 

[Welnic]

Most of his berserkers have CR I or II, I wouldn't bother with forts, that would just be playing into his hands. I would probably build muskets and catapults, longbows if you have some cities on hills.

I can't look at the save right now, do you have Nationalism? If you do I would drop into Nationhood and Theocracy once you have Rifling finished and then start drafting riflemen.

 

[Scaphism]

Ouch. "Our hands are full" is a bad sign.

You may lose a border city or two. Put enough of a garrison there to give the rest of your empire time to whip/draft an army.


No Camel Archers - he has Combat 2 Elephants and a few highly promoted pikes.
Hopefully you have the production advantage on your side - you should be able to counter his elephants with spears and most of the rest with longbows. Build catapaults, not trebuchets., and give them Collateral damage bonuses. You'll be attacking his stacks outside your walls, not going after him in a city.

He doesn't appear to have a lot of siege units, which should hopefully work in your favor. With a stack that big though he could roll over a weakly defended border city in 1 turn even without siege.

What about the Apostolic Palace? There's a big jewish bloc that both you and he are part of. If you control it you could potentially stop hostilities whenever they start, or maybe even declare a war on the infidels. If that works out you should get shared military struggle diplo bonus with Ragnar.

See if you can trade with him - anything. Even a gift of some sort - clams for 2gpt or something. That will give a 10 turn peace treaty which should be enough time to build up more troops to defend your border cities. The longer you delay him the more troops you can build, and the longer he will have to spend taking border cities. If you can keep him bogged down on the outskirts you should be able to outproduce and reinforce your troops more quickly than he will.

 

[Carnage04]

Yeah, you have to trust Diplomacy to save you. Ragnar has been a very very solid ally for me in a few games. Stay the same religion, fight a mutual struggle to "Bring you closer together"...trade with him (Ragnar is often way behind in techs even when having a pile of land and troops.) even if it's lopsided towards him... Once you get him to friendly he is your friend for a long time....at least until it's time to bash his brains out when you have tanks and he has knights.

 

[Welnic]

...
He doesn't appear to have a lot of siege units, which should hopefully work in your favor. With a stack that big though he could roll over a weakly defended border city in 1 turn even without siege.
...

This is something that I have messed up when looking at stacks this big. I'm not sure what your definition of a lot is, but he has 8 catapults and 3 trebs. He also has 9 Pikemen. The units down at the bottom have parentheses with the number of units that there are. I know that I have sized up a stack almost exactly this size before and was relieved that there wasn't much siege units, then was very surprised when they actually attacked.

 

[jason77024]

Cool idea, but you need one more fort in that line to plug the diagonal hole between the 2nd & 3d forts (counting from the top).

 

[r_rolo1]

If Ragnar attacks, I believe that It will go to Argos ( nearer of his land ). Amass there shock and drill units, with a heavy payload of cats ( with collateral enhacer promos if possible ). But a possible aproach is to abandon Argos, let the stack take it and attack them in city ( there the CR promos of Ragnar army will be useless )

 

[Lurking Liu]

I don't know your techs specifically, but if you've got time to build up counters to that stack, then go for high Drill-promoted Crossbows. Except for his three War Elephants, the Crossbows will be base 9 strength, and the first strikes will enable them to survive more battles as well as protecting them from collateral damage. Since you're Protective, you get two key promotions for free, so where's the downside?

Muskets are another good choice since they're neither Mounted nor Melee, and have a base strength as high as Crossbows against melee.

But, yeah, Muskets and Crossbows.

Oh, also, don't bother asking anything in return for your offer. Gift clams to Ragnar, you'll still get the 10 turns of peace, and he'll certainly accept it unless he plans on attacking immediately. And if he does reject it, then you know how much time you have =)

 

[Matty R]

I'm not sure if this would work, but how about creating loads of fodder. You could create a load of your cheapest units and fortify them in stacks of 3 or 4 between yourself and Ragnar. Hopefully, Ragnar will concentrate on destroying all of those before he goes for your city. That would give you time to organise defences and produce your better units in your production city.

Cool idea, but you need one more fort in that line to plug the diagonal hole between the 2nd & 3d forts (counting from the top).

Thanks.

Well spotted, but I would have noticed it when an enemy stack poured through.

 

[Lurking Liu]

A stack that large isn't going to be slowed down by fortified stacks of 3 or 4 chaff units. Crossbows are cheap and effective counters that play well with his Protective trait. Muskets are a little more expensive, but even more effective. If he has time, build the latter, if it's urgent, build the former.

 

[Mu'min]

Thanks Welnic i didn't spot those numbers im in more trouble than i thought.

I will try the trade thing with him tonight and will send a spy to steal nationism from someone if i can't trade it. I will try and get encconomics too i will need it if the war drags on. War weariness is going to be a killer with that 'fighting our brothers' thing. ive tried to trade techs with pascal but he asks to much for just one tech, i can't afford to have him run away in techs.

I will build cats for now while rifles gets researched, by then i should have nationalism, then i will switch to war civics and draft some rifles. In the mean while i will see what i can do to boost my defences in the east and have a look at what ragnar has in the cities to the south, i don't want the nasty surprise of a second stack coming up from the south

Im going to try something with forts. I will build one fort in the jungle in crook of the river and one to the NW in the woods to try and create a killing field between. the one behind the river i will stack with longbows CG I & II the other one will have cats. Hopefully ragnar will try and go around the river fort allowing me to hit his stack in the open with cats. I know it probably won't stop him but at least it may slow him down enough for me to get troops in position.