Help me beat Deity :(

[lindsay40k]

So I've won on Deity before - as Toku, no less - by using WB to cook up a map that could be generated if you rolled enough times. You know the sort; Plains Hill Marble on a river delta that's got all your starting resources and a few more nearby. Shaka in a place where he'll DOW you and feed XP into your hilltop chokepoint. Fine. If I throw enough chimpanzees at enough typewriters and nobody builds Oracle until I can use if for Music, I can do this.

Last night I saw a Deity Hannibal NC rush, and as Carthage is my favourite faction I thought I'd have a go with them. No cooking, just roll a viable map and get cracking.

After a few rolls I got a peach of a start. Plains Cattle, BUT within a turn's walking distance is a massive forest or a wiggly flood plain with two Gold. And there's loads more Gold around. And easy Horses and Copper. And there's Stone in the Forest, begging to be turned into Pyramids.

I can't get anything out of this map. I've restarted a dozen times, on various speeds, and if I don't get zerged by Barbs then Zara next door becomes Zara all around becomes Zara building even more cities on the land his culture has pushed back. Barbarian Galleys drive through my patrol groups, and smugly float away full of my fish and enough promotions to make them immune to anything short of a Caravel.

Can anyone else show us what they've got?

 

[Fippy]

Curious where you settled, not an easy decision.
Barbs are really a big big problem on Deity continents, if you settle with stone in range you should build tgw. Settling on gold actually looks best here oO

Plains cow no good for such starts, might as well give up with worker 15 turns and then no food (SIP).
And Hanni cannot even research AH in time. PH north of stone..a bit better, but settling gold and getting fish really looks like what i would do here. 2h and 3c city tile, food and stone for tgw.

 

[lindsay40k]

Wow. Never occurred to me to forego the gold mine for a 3C city.

I tried several places, had frustrating results with the 2G Fish location. Zara would always beat me to the Stone forest or the Horses. I could get them by settling in the forest, but by the time if chopped out my settlers there was nothing left to build Mids and they'd get built ten turns before I could finish them.

It look so much like a great continent! But Zara exerts so much pressure on borders and leaves no time to develop.

 

[MegaLurker]

On Deity you'll almost certainly have to choose between an HA rush or the 'Mids, you can't do both. Either one is powerful. Numidians are extremely strong on Deity. If you have access to gold to get you to HBR very quickly I would do Numidians. More fun than chopping a wonder, in any case.

 

[Fippy]

I did not look much further than warrior move, but Mids lose much value if you are Cha and have gold already for a nice early happy cap + not that much food.

Sounds like you should either rush like Mega says, or block settle vs. Zara
Might also be clever to gift your stone if that's an option, maybe he builds them for you lol.

 

[MegaLurker]

Might also be clever to gift your stone if that's an option, maybe he builds them for you lol.

That right there is some high-level strategic thinking

Zara as a neighbour on Deity can be a huge problem. He's easy to keep happy but he expands fast, researches very well in the AIs hands, and the culture pressure on the borders will be enormous.

Crippling him early with Numidians is a strong move. And he's one of those AIs that you can attack early and still trade techs with later, because of the +2 base diplo modifier (and unusually large bonus from shared religion). Though keep in mind he can plot war at Pleased.

 

[georgjorge]

Some general advice: don't go into an unknown Deity game with a specific strategy (such as Numidic Cavalry rush). A strategy can correspond with a leader's strenghts in the optimal case, but often a better strategy is something more suited to the map and opponents.

I played the game rather sloppily - I usually only play Pangea, and thus my naval exploration was VERY late. Also bad worker micro. However, I think it is very winnable. Save attached.

How the game went so far:

Spoiler :

With your comments in mind, I settled on the gold. If Hannibal started with Agriculture I probably would still have chosen to settle on the stone and work Cows + Gold. So I made a Workboat, teched Agriculture + Animal Husbandry. Met nobody but Zara after 20 turns so went Masonry + Wheel to hook up Stone for the Great Wall which was crucial here. Three Warriors still got to attack my capital defended by two, if it was three Archers the game would probably be over. After building it, and with double gold nearby, I made as many cities as I could. Capital was pumping Settlers non-stop while second city was pumping Workers (no time for Library or Granary even). Even so, I could only get five cities (almost got a sixth) on the continent.

Went Writing - Mathematics - Currency. Was very relieved when a Monty Workboat showed up and Zara would finally trade his techs with me, semi-isolation sucks. Got Sailing very late in a trade from Cathy, and had two Settlers already lounging around by that time. Made a Galley and got three more cities on the islands - I had to close borders with Zara for a few turns to beat his Galleys to them.

I got my Great Spy and spent it for a few thousands points on Zara. Zara techs well, so I will steal some things from him and trade them around. Switched to Caste and going to bulb Philosophy, then run a few more Scientists in high-population cities (gotta love Charismatic). No cottages whatsoever since I was too busy REXing and then it seemed rather late.

The game is not won by far, but with 8 cities and some clever teching I might just make it to Curs in time. Problems: no Iron (though Zara is willing to trade it to me and I only need it for a few turns) and three cities on islands which makes war logistics a pain.

 

[lindsay40k]

I had another go... REXed from the forest location as it provided plenty of chops and was one less site for Zara to beat me to. I gave Zara Stone to build Mids for me, and all it does is mean that he doesn't even develop Cottages, just settles fourteen cities that each produce twenty beakers. Despite having more Gold mines and wiggly Flood Plains than I knew what to do with, I didn't even manage to whip ten NC before he smugly started upgrading to Longbows.

I don't get it. There's plenty of food for me to whip, plenty of happiness to keep the whip going, and plenty of commerce to get me to HBR really fast. I had minimal trouble with Barbs and even got a Medic/Flanking Chariot out of them (to fight up to Recon as a support unit for a NC stack). I researched HBR as quickly as possible then went to zero research to prepare for the Academy to help me reach CS.

I can see that a Cuir breakout is really do-able, but it feels like a NC rush should be viable. Eh, I'll give this settling on Gold trick a go.

I suppose Zara is bad news as a neighbour when you're stuck in a pressure cooker with his borders. Maybe if I were next to Shaka I'd know where I was XD

 

[georgjorge]

The thing about Horse Archer (Numidian Cavalry) rushes on Deity is that they don't always work, and are somewhat dependent on luck (RNG, does the target have metals or not) as well. I personally stay away from them unless I'm extremely blocked in as it's not too uncommon for the target to have either too many Spearmen or even Longbows in time.

I admire your stamina for replaying the same map a dozen times, I personally already have trouble playing a map a second time without falling asleep. Maybe try another one? Continents is nice to play, but if you really want to get better at getting cities while being blocked in I recommend Pangea where you can practice that trait under extreme conditions.

 

[MegaLurker]

The thing about Horse Archer (Numidian Cavalry) rushes on Deity is that they don't always work, and are somewhat dependent on luck (RNG, does the target have metals or not) as well. I personally stay away from them unless I'm extremely blocked in as it's not too uncommon for the target to have either too many Spearmen or even Longbows in time.

I agree that RNG luck can have a big impact on your HA rush on Deity, but you have to be way too slow to be foiled by Longbows. And as far as metal is concerned, that doesn't really apply to Hannibal.

I played a quick opening to see what all the fuss was about. HA rush is quite effective:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Zara just got Iron, which is fine because of the Numidians. Up til now fighting only chariots and archers it was a fair bit harder than it would have been with regular HAs, and I certainly had more than enough time to pillage his Irony were I not playing Hannibal. Would have been quite a bit easier overall.

I settled on the PH next to the gold. Yes it meant I only settled on turn 3, and no it's not a good long-term capital, but it's quite good for HA-rushing purposes. Micro was poor-to-nonexistant and tech choices were questionable, I went math->currency instead of alphabet because of the map type (limited AI contact this early) and the fact that Zara often goes early Alpha himself. But this time he didn't, so I can't take peace for techs here, which would be really strong. You could do it several times without any "you declared war on our friend!" hits with other AIs.

Not to say it's super-easy or that the game is won. But I have crippled Zara pretty badly and should be able to finish him off with Numidians. He built the Great Lighthouse, which makes this game significantly easier. He also built the Great Wall which I already captured, which at least means I don't need to waste any HA turns dealing with barbs. The main problem now is that his 2 strongest remaining cities are both on hills, which means losses will be heavy. But on the other hand I'm finally getting my hands on all those forests south and west of the capital and have Math finished. I'd have liked to settle those myself but Zara was too fast.

I certainly agree with georgjorge that you shouldn't start a game with a fixed strategy. But in this case as soon as you research AH (which you would do no matter what with cows and pigs) it becomes clear that rushing Zara is your strongest option. He expands fast, has crushing culture, and we have multiple goldmines to easily get to HBR in time. Huge amount of forest to be captured, which means the conquest is self-sustaining.

 

[lindsay40k]

So what sort of turn numbers are people getting for ending REX, getting HBR, DOW? And how many HAs are they declaring with, and how are they produced? Whip every city down to food and gold mine alone?

 

[Fippy]

Hmm..not many cities for HA rushes, esp. if i have gold and teching is fast.
Average of 3 maybe? Growing them a bit is very useful for whipping, sometimes also granaries. Barracks. All better than another settler for a city that will be pop 1 when you start producing HAs

When i have hbr there's only 1 rule..get them fast. Whipping, chopping (often good to combine, whip with OF + chop for 2 HAs in few turns).
Future lies in the cities i will take, and land secured (esp. in situations like semi isolation).
Stacking whip anger is okay here early.

Usually i kept stacking them while all cities produce fast, then attack when pop and / or forests are spare.
Or if you really need 1 or 2 AI cities cos yours are struggling with building an army, attacking early (with only ~6 maybe?) also works.
Cease fire and nothing happened, cept that you have more cities to abuse now

 

[Izuul]

3 maybe 4 cities is good for a HA rush IMO. It kind of depends on the quality of the sites available and how quickly you can settle them. You don't want to settle stuff that won't contribute to the rush.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Horse Archer rush with two cities is quite viable. Depends on how much a third city can grow.

2-4 cities is fine for a Deity Horse Archer rush, but they need to be founded as early as possible.

A city at pop 1 can be ok, as long as it has forests and workers to chop them.

I prefer fewer cities with both barracks and granary (for efficient regrowth) than more cities without these buildings.

In addition, the capital should build a stable as well; this can be done while researching archery. When some of your horse archers start with two promotions, you can attack better defended cities with fewer losses or attack weakly defended cities for often no losses at all.

 

[lindsay40k]

Hmm. I've been trying it with 4-5 cities and getting Barracks and Stable in each one. Especially given that NC have easy access to Flanking II, I can see a more breakneck bolt for war being better than building up an elite army that's got to conquer twice as many cities that have reached 40%.

The river gold city will need a Monument to get all the goodies, but should any other cities bother if they're sorted for tiles without a border pop? It's +1 but adds +1 to the whip queue...

 

[sampsa]

I often go with 0 barracks...

 

[lymond]

I often go with 0 barracks...

yep..this

I might at most build a barracks in my cap if nothing better to do while waiting for HBR and 2 or 3rd cities getting ready, but often no barracks or stables at all. Key to HA rush, especially on higher levels is speed (and not just of the horsies). The earlier you catch an AI off guard (expansion, no walls, weaker units,etc) can be of better benefit than some extra promos.

As you are building your first few HAs you might kill some barbs in the meantime for some XP.

Really though, on Deity, the success of HA rush is executing it as fast as possible. Often the lifespan of HA rush on Diety is very limited anyway unless you really have weak neighbors/land. But it can be quite effective if executed properly to "expand" in lieu of settlers. 2 to 3 cities is usually best - 4 would be situational depending on land.

It's really evolving the early "builder" mentality to that of all out war with pretty everything geared/focus to getting HAs ready asap - from tech to production. Things like monuments you want to avoid having to build if at all possible by simply settling wisely. Just granaries in cities where they would be useful early (think food)...and get them up asap.

 

[Macksideshow]

Hmm. I've been trying it with 4-5 cities and getting Barracks and Stable in each one. Especially given that NC have easy access to Flanking II, I can see a more breakneck bolt for war being better than building up an elite army that's got to conquer twice as many cities that have reached 40%.

The river gold city will need a Monument to get all the goodies, but should any other cities bother if they're sorted for tiles without a border pop? It's +1 but adds +1 to the whip queue...

I recently promoted Numidian Cavs up the Combat + Shock line with reasoning that they already immunity to first strikes and Spears were my biggest threat.

How would people usually promote NC's and HA's ??

EDIT: Well half Combat + Shock and half pure Combat as mostly facing Archers in cities and CG2 is also a main threat.

 

[Fippy]

0 barracks is questionable advice for Deity, something went wrong in preparing if that happens

At least 1 city will produce several HAs, there's always one with many forests or good whipping. You rarely know how well you will do in your rush (why you play deity, so they are a challenge), and having some more experienced units can make the difference between success and oh well, another time.

It's 50h, we are not talking about markets
C1 or no promo early game can mean 33% chance or over 50% i remember that well, it's very tight against archers and their bonuses.

@Mack, combat and shock sounds right..there were many discussions about that topic years ago, but flanking does not have many fans overall. Sometimes if battles are really hopeless it can be useful, but overall you just want to do damage.

 

[MegaLurker]

Combat isn't as good for Numidians because of the lower base strength, immediate access to Flanking II is pretty good for attacks that're already low odds to win. They're likely to survive and only need 1 more XP to get Combat I, and from there can get to a third promotion quite fast. With Hannibal I usually find myself with a bunch of Flanking II/Combat II (or combat/shock) by the time I've captured half the target's cities. It works out nicely.

Shock on Numidians gives really nice odds even against fortified spearmen. Value of stables for a Charismatic leader is considerably lower. In my example above I had granaries in all three cities, I think, barracks in only two. Third city was a bit late for barracks...better to have more unpromoted HAs early than to wait too long IMO. Even a handful of turns can make a big difference on Deity.