Help Me Get Better on Immortal!

[5tephen]

@dankok8

It's quite hard to see in the zoomed out map but a city 1N1E of southern corn would have wet corn (always amazing), oasis and several floodplains?

A city on the desert hill 1N2W of stone would also have several floodplains, oasis and eventually stone. This city would be slow to get going but with plenty of cottages could really contribute later? It would be instantly connected to your capital via the river.

Would be good to know if there's anything good around the ivory as you say as a city there would go some way to claiming your peninsula. Would also be good to know what's north of ivory and longer term if there's any southern seafood?

I'm not an expert but those are my thoughts.

 

[dankok8]

@dankok8

It's quite hard to see in the zoomed out map but a city 1N1E of southern corn would have wet corn (always amazing), oasis and several floodplains?

A city on the desert hill 1N2W of stone would also have several floodplains, oasis and eventually stone. This city would be slow to get going but with plenty of cottages could really contribute later? It would be instantly connected to your capital via the river.

Would be good to know if there's anything good around the ivory as you say as a city there would go some way to claiming your peninsula. Would also be good to know what's north of ivory and longer term if there's any southern seafood?

I'm not an expert but those are my thoughts.

Sorry about the awkward zoom. I'll fix that.

I agree with your thinking. 1N 2W of Stone on the desert hill seems a no-brainer to me and I still have to scout more to check out the Ivory and the southern Corn sites. I have a feeling I'll have to hurry if I want to claim the Ivory. Looks like the desert forms a kind of a natural barrier with the AI's. If they don't settle it we won't have land borders so we'll have better relations and if they do settle it, they'll pay maintenance for junk cities. It's a win-win if I look at it that way!

 

[dankok8]

You guys have any other feedback after my first turnset? I was thinking to play a little further tonight. I'm thinking Warrior then a Settler which I'm probably sending for FP + Stone although I may decide to shoot for an Ivory city if I discover food there. As someone mentioned such a city also does a great job boxing out my neighbours. .

 

[Harv]

@lymond
@sampsa
@Jellybug
@Gumbolt who is in England, I understand

My thread got really hot when I put it up.

 

[lymond]

Several of us are tied up with SGOTM a lot right now, so will be limited. Don't think Sampsa is doing sgotm though (he really should), but he's a Finn so likely about out for the day. My time with sgotm is bound by all the Euros on my team, so I might be able to pop in late evenings for some advice after taking care of real life..ha.

oh..I'm a Murican if that was not already obvious

 

[Harv]

Also, I only see the 4000 BC save. Do you have a save from turn 15?

 

[dankok8]

Here it is. I thought I attached it but apparently not.

 

[Jellybug]

I've just moved to Imm myself so I'm nothing close to an expert, but ey I've been winning and you are at the stage of the game that gives me anxiety so I'll share what's on my mind from this save.

Mining BW is good to unlock some production. I think AH can be delayed with only a sheep. What I'm unclear of is what the next site should be, and I'm split between the crab spot and the desert hill. I guess the desert hill has the oasis so that's commerce and upside over the seafood... you go wheel-pottery, chop the settler, a few warriors and a worker. I'd like to have more production though but what can you do.

The swath of land should be bustable with just warriors. Much of the plan is contingent on scouting and how close Dr Dredds is, but you have another fifteen turns or so before you make a research decision. Hate to lose the elephants to Gil cuz thats how we're getting out of this corner IMO so I hope there's a juicy food near there for the next site

edit: I'm also American

 

[drewisfat]

I thought castle/citadel defense does *NOT* obsolete at Economics, rather to gunpowder units which come out around same time.

To be a bit contrarian even to my betters, I think it's premature to set a gameplan towards conqs. Plenty of time to wait for more scouting, but from what is shown so far I'd favor using the citadel. Stone is a lock here, meaning half price walls/citadels. Not only that but we have a lot of forests that we don't want to use for an early push against PRO civs. I'd chop some into mids. Myst starter makes masonry a bit cheaper. The only happiness showing on the map right now is ivory, and no trait help from Izzy. Rep and then Police State should serve us well. Plus, mids gives us some GE points, so hopefully we can get a GE bulb for eng. Ivory also pushes us in this direction. War elephants are ideal unit to go with trebs, as we can start building the army at construction while we wait for Engineering. Also given their location I think there's a good chance that the neighboring AI may wind up with some war elephants. That would play into an engineering rush, as a couple of pikes for stack defense would neutralize them. Otoh they could be a bit of a hiccup against conqs.

 

[5tephen]

@dankok8
I've played a little bit of your map.
My (amateur) thoughts on things to consider:
- what will you do for happiness?
- how do your neighbours traits affect you?
- what do you need in the way of barb defence?
- what's your aim for military breakout - do you need the elephants, is there an earlier option or are you going to go conquistadors/cannons?
- how might you use your own traits in the next few turns?

I think your plan of warrior, settler is good. I'd be interested to see if you can do any better with your tech path than me (don't know if it's possible.) I went the direction you suggested with Ag->Min->BW and farming sheep after corn but found myself with idle worker turns even having worked lake for a few turns to boost BW.

 

[5tephen]

I've just moved to Imm myself so I'm nothing close to an expert, but ey I've been winning and you are at the stage of the game that gives me anxiety so I'll share what's on my mind from this save.

Mining BW is good to unlock some production. I think AH can be delayed with only a sheep. What I'm unclear of is what the next site should be, and I'm split between the crab spot and the desert hill. I guess the desert hill has the oasis so that's commerce and upside over the seafood... you go wheel-pottery, chop the settler, a few warriors and a worker. I'd like to have more production though but what can you do.

The swath of land should be bustable with just warriors. Much of the plan is contingent on scouting and how close Dr Dredds is, but you have another fifteen turns or so before you make a research decision. Hate to lose the elephants to Gil cuz thats how we're getting out of this corner IMO so I hope there's a juicy food near there for the next site

edit: I'm also American

Are you sure about the crab spot? The way I see it:

Spoiler :

Until you could build a work boat you'd have to share the corn which somewhat neutralises the capital in the short term? I like the desert hill followed by ivory irrespective of food as good for happy and war.

@drewisfat is a great deity player though and best to take their advice over mine.

P.S. @Jellybug I would have bet heavily on you being British!

 

[lymond]

I think it's premature to set a gameplan towards conqs. .

Totally agree with that point. I don't think implication was made that it would be so, just more general discussion of Izzy's ..um..assets.

Spoiler from the little i've seen so far :

This could prove to be a challenging start with a somewhat unique position for a continents type map - granted a type I don't play much - but still. Yet can offer some interesting learning ops

 

[dankok8]

Played more to turn 36 (2560 BC).

Spoiler :

Not a hugely eventful round other than our two Warriors killing two Bears. Both guys settled on hills and one bear was redlined with 0.8 HP but I'll take it. Got two WI promos out of it. Meh.

Anyways ended the turnset with the finishing of a Settler and managed to explore the surroundings. Umm not good. We are boxed in solid by Gilga and getting the Ivory seems to be a priority to stop him from settling closer in. Didn't find Copper anywhere and he already settled his 2nd city north to get the Deer so we could get there if we head over now. Unfortunately the site has no food but I think this game strongly screams for a Construction break out and War Eles will help a lot with that.

After the cap grew to size 2, the Warrior still needed some hammers so I worked the forested hill for a turn and then with one turn left I worked the lake for 2 C and that shaved a turn off of BW. I started the Wheel next which will be followed by Pottery and we'll need some cottages especially if we settle that far away city. There is some wisdom in AH to try to reveal Horses but probably unnecessary if we get Ivory and the area is small and should be no problem to fogbust with Warriors. I'm thinking to chop the Worker in the capital and send him over to the Ivory city to chop a Monument cuz cultural border pressure will be a bit painful.

To summarize my thinking, I'm thinking 2nd city 1W of the northern Ivory, 3rd city on the desert hill to get FP and Stone and then fill out the rest of our peninsula. With maybe 5-6 cities, break out with War Ele + Catapults.

 

[dankok8]

My other plan: @5tephen

Spoiler :

Since I have Stone I could build Pyramids. Will solve the happiness problems and boost research and I don't have to tech HR. Then will hit Gilga with War Ele + Cata as mentioned.

My worker was idle for like two turns before BW came in and I chopped the Settler.

 

[5tephen]

@dankok8

War elephants and catapults was my initial plan too but I decided to go further down the tech tree before war. I can be too hesitant in early war but production here isn't great and I was concerned I might need a lot of elepults to take out Gilgamesh - protective can be so annoying to play against when it's such a poor trait if you have it yourself!

I figure with the pyramids and scope for a great beaurocracy capital on that desert hill we should be able to get a good tech lead.

In terms of order of cities I'm not sure - the ivory seems essential before too long as it's the only happy resource currently visible but the city is otherwise poor. 1W of northern ivory seems good to me for city in this location though - Gilgamesh's culture can be a big issue if the city is placed further east and risks taking the ivory thus making the city pointless.

The desert hill city is closer and contributes some commerce from the floodplains (contrary to what I previously stated it's not automatically connected to capital though as capital is not on the river.)

The wet corn in the south has the potential to contribute quickest once the corn is improved but is far away for city maintenance and settler turns plus you've currently got a barb in the way.

Whatever you do I agree with your plan (based on screenshot) for worker as next build in capital. Pottery seems important to me with all those floodplains but guess they could be farmed instead for rep scientists which might work well with a city on the stone instead of desert hill and another city to the west of the floodplains. This might also solve the problem of production as it would give two good whipping cities.

I don't know if it's a good play or not but if you're going to benefit from the ivory you will probably need sailing.

 

[dankok8]

@dankok8

War elephants and catapults was my initial plan too but I decided to go further down the tech tree before war. I can be too hesitant in early war but production here isn't great and I was concerned I might need a lot of elepults to take out Gilgamesh - protective can be so annoying to play against when it's such a poor trait if you have it yourself!

I figure with the pyramids and scope for a great beaurocracy capital on that desert hill we should be able to get a good tech lead.

In terms of order of cities I'm not sure - the ivory seems essential before too long as it's the only happy resource currently visible but the city is otherwise poor. 1W of northern ivory seems good to me for city in this location though - Gilgamesh's culture can be a big issue if the city is placed further east and risks taking the ivory thus making the city pointless.

The desert hill city is closer and contributes some commerce from the floodplains (contrary to what I previously stated it's not automatically connected to capital though as capital is not on the river.)

The wet corn in the south has the potential to contribute quickest once the corn is improved but is far away for city maintenance and settler turns plus you've currently got a barb in the way.

Whatever you do I agree with your plan (based on screenshot) for worker as next build in capital. Pottery seems important to me with all those floodplains but guess they could be farmed instead for rep scientists which might work well with a city on the stone instead of desert hill and another city to the west of the floodplains. This might also solve the problem of production as it would give two good whipping cities.

I don't know if it's a good play or not but if you're going to benefit from the ivory you will probably need sailing.

It's quite a difficult position. I'm worried if I can win this game.

A lot of what you say agrees with my plans but I think Elepult attack is what I'll go with. I might build a long road to connect Ivory instead of going for Sailing though?

 

[sampsa]

I would go for the Mids and consider it almost an auto-win. You can place 3 cities nicely to claim the whole fp-area (on the stone, 2W of northern oasis, 1E of southern corn), one for crabs and you don't really even need a 6th if you don't have a good spot. Gift a city to G.

Elepult is probably doable, but then you are already founding cities away from the best area.

 

[sampsa]

T68 Mids-strategy

Spoiler :

Things are going as planned. T66 Mids, 5 workers, time to do some cottaging.

 

[dankok8]

I would go for the Mids and consider it almost an auto-win. You can place 3 cities nicely to claim the whole fp-area (on the stone, 2W of northern oasis, 1E of southern corn), one for crabs and you don't really even need a 6th if you don't have a good spot. Gift a city to G.

Elepult is probably doable, but then you are already founding cities away from the best area.

So just to be clear. You wouldn't even settle the Ivory city and just focus on the sites you mentioned? You saying auto-win makes me quite confused because I really don't understand what makes this position so great. If anything I think the position is quite worrisome since we are hemmed in and have only room for five or six cities. As a lower level player than yourself, I see that as a death sentence. I'm quite skeptical that I can keep up in tech with the Immortal AI with such a small empire.

 

[Tobiyogi]

I am also intrigued about the "auto-win"...
I don't know when Gilga settled Ur in @sampsa 's game, it looks like a quite recent settle (1-size), same for Seville (1-size), I would have probably settled Seville really close to the ivory in order to prevent Gilgas culture from spreading into my land and to keep the option open of getting Elephants. Sure, it is a strategic settle and the city would never be great, but as Elephants can be upgraded to Conqs, they are even more appealing to me.
Also I consider both Gilga and Qin as fairly "dangerous", no-one has a religion yet, so hard to make someone a friend here.

Edit: Settling 1E of the southern ivory would be good. The city won't grow anyway and there are at least some forests. It blocks Gilga of going south-east - but not blocks him off completely (could become angry). "Angry Gilga into camera jumps, Tobiyogi not want that."