Help with Pirates! Yarr! by Paasky

[Eclipse4449]

I'm sorry I missed post #154 which was my problem
Thanks
I just fired up a Netherlands game for testing
I wish I would have discovered my error earlier, anyway I have still many hours to test, maybe even get to a Portugal game

 

[BadKharma]

That is interesting, but the question is what will that add to the game? Unless you plan to have the players do a lot of settling. That also makes the pirates position even more difficult because they have to cover an even larger area. I think the main question you need to look at whenever you design a scenario is what do you want to accomplish. Some of the rule changes I want to make adds in historical fantasy because in that time period they believed in ghost ships and sea monsters. So while it is not historically accurate today it is historically accurate for the period. I noticed there were some problems concerning the AI using trade routes if you set ocean terrain to cost more movement points than sea the AI will use trade sea routes and be less likely to stray from them. Also of course coastal tiles should have even more of a movement penalty and smaller ships can be set to ignore that penalty that is one of the ways that the smaller more agile pirate ships can have an advantage. I have spent a lot of time going over the different facets of how to make the game both historical and enjoyable to play. That is why I decided to open the Great Lakes to the Atlantic Ocean it makes any cities along the route that much more strategic. It really is a huge balance between history and playability. One of the reasons I wanted Europe to be large enough to produce units is that the best units should only be able to be built there. which is easier to isolate when you do not have sea trade available. Of course then the smallest faction the Pirates have to be balanced in because they will mainly be gaining island cities without a trade route to build units.

 

[The Guardian]

I'm sorry I missed post #154 which was my problem
Thanks
I just fired up a Netherlands game for testing
I wish I would have discovered my error earlier, anyway I have still many hours to test, maybe even get to a Portugal game

Good to hear your back on track Eclipse. Looking forward to hearing and seeing how your test goes. BTW, as I told Arex, be wary wary careful wabbit. Heres a little clue for your all, what do find around reefs?

 

[Eclipse4449]

Notes I post here tonight are not so much errors but just observations.
I'll collect every 6 turns for awhile screen shots frpm the "V" button and F11 to show a rate of change, plus any other finds

For now the Netherland's Islands only produce the 1 shield in the city except for St Maarten which has one plot of land

More in a bit...

 

[The Guardian]

Notes I post here tonight are not so much errors but just observations.
I'll collect every 10 turns for awhile then 5 turns screen shots frpm the "V" button and F11 to show a rate of change, plus any other finds

For now the Netherland's Islands only produce the 1 shield in the city except for St Maarten which has one plot of land

More in a bit...

Personally, I think the Netherlands is going to be the toughest civ to win with.
Here is my advice on the netherlands.
Strengthen Rio D Jenaro
Expand westward from there, there are good resource available there
If you control rio, you control the interior
This is also a good location to launch an attack against the spanish colonies to the west on the pacific side. They are weak and difficult to reinforce.


Sorry Eclipse I am thinking of Portugal.

 

[Eclipse4449]

Ah this is great stuff dude! I'm playing along just the first few turns on Emporer level and france wages war on me in Europe, simultaneously lands a melee unit in my unoccupied Fortress @ St Maarten, next turn took unoccupied St Maarten

Turn 6 France invades Rotterdam but it has 5 Coastal Battery 16#
Hehe

Notes so far;

Netherlands
Has 1 shield
Bonaire, Virgin Islands, Aruba,

Has 2 shields
St Maarten

Unhappy
Curacao @ size 5

Rotterdam and Namibia produced a Coastal Battery 16# every turn

ps I get your messages immediately because of My email Arr mate when there is a post here Hehe

 

[The Guardian]

Ah this is great stuff dude! I'm playing along just the first few turns on Emporer level and france wages war on me in Europe, simultaneously lands a melee unit in my unoccupied Fortress @ St Maarten
Hehe

Notes so far;

Netherlands
Has 1 shield
Bonaire, Virgin Islands, Aruba,

Has 2 shields
St Maarten

Unhappy
Curacao @ size 5

Rotterdam and Namibia produced a Coastal Battery 16# every turn

OK I'll correct that, thanks

 

[Eclipse4449]

Heavy Frigate unlike other ship did not bombard units last hit point. Ships can bombard until death except HF

Sloop moves threw ocean with no problems

Pirate Code Tech Icon outside of Tech screen

City Defender Unit can be built in Curacao, Virgin Islands, St Maarten But not in Aruba, Bonaire These cities nearby each other

 

[BadKharma]

On the map with the cities placed already 160 x 204:
Netherlands 12 mainland cities
France 14
England 12 plus 4 in Ireland
Spain 14
Portugal 6 with Azure close by

When you start taking into account the colonial possessions things are pretty even

Barbary Pirates 28 connected cities but small population and no colonies

Pirates 11 cities with very few connected

 

[Eclipse4449]

Rotterdam and Namibia auto-produced a Pirate battery on turn 12

Rotterdam and French Capitol (Bayonne) culture expands. These cities touch but Bayonne wins the culture push. Rotterdam already not having full cross expansion

Settlers produced again on turn 18

Turn 20 according to my gaming ability at this point I can begin expansion. The Islands are strengthened and have an adequate amount to assault a neighboring city.

Netherlands gets the Plague @ turn 22

a few screens more to come tomorrow

 

[The Guardian]

Rotterdam and Namibia auto-produced a Pirate battery on turn 12

Rotterdam and French Capitol (Bayonne) culture expands. These cities touch but Bayonne wins the culture push. Rotterdam already not having full cross expansion

Settlers produced again on turn 18

Turn 20 according to my gaming ability at this point I can begin expansion. The Islands are strengthened and have an adequate amount to assault a neighboring city.

Netherlands gets the Plague @ turn 22

a few screens more to come tomorrow

Good report Eclipse, with some surprising results, and some not surprising. I suspected that portugal and netherlands would be the weakest civs and no surprise, they are. Spain is doing as expected. Turn 20 however shows some interesting results regarding VP. Netherlands is doing very well ??? Frances VP scores are somewhat surprising. and spains power is already diminishing.

The game commentary you supplied is very helpful also. I will correct the production items that need correcting, but as far as adjusting any game balance items I will more info before making any changes.

Again, good report. VP and power graphics are the most helpful at this points.

BTW, have you encountered any reefs?

 

[Arexander]

Jan. 1656 AD; Turn 0
Playing as Peglegs

Rename Heneago to Heneagua (its original name)

Rename 6 Pirate Ships to following names: "(PS) Davy Jones' Dream", "(PS) Neptune's Scream", "(PS) Night's Thunder", "(PS) The Cursed Eel", "(PS) The Greedy Devil" and "(PS) The Hellish Buccaneer"

Rename 7 Buccaneers to following names: "Rees's Raiders", "Graeme's Group", "Perry's Pirates", "Malcolm's Muggers", "Tasgall's Thieves", "Reg's Robbers" and "Meredith's Malefactors"

Rename 2 Pirate Vessels to following names: "(PV) The Black Coral of the West" and "(PV) The Bloody Dishonor"

Rename 2 Captains to following names: "Captain Cleto" and "Captain Mathúin"

Heneagua builds Granary in 50 turns
Cayman Islands Granary in 50
Researching Coastal Defenses in 6 at 10%
Make contacts with Spain, Britain and Swashbucklers

IBT
6 Swashbucklers' Pirate Ships sail towards the middle trade route

Feb. 1656 AD; Turn 1
(PS) Davy Jones' Dream sinks a Pirate Ship
(PS) Neptune's Scream sinks a Pirate Ship

(PS) Night's Thunder is lost while battling a Pirate Ship
(PS) The Curse Eel transports Graeme's Group, Perry's Pirates and Rees's Raiders to Cuba. They land near Santiago. (PS) The Cursed Eel bombards a Matchlock Musketeer and hits for 1 HP

IBT
Swashbucklers' ships return to port but two of them lay outside
Graeme's Group and Rees's Raiders are butchered by Spanish Matchlock Musketeers
Perry's Pirates are attacked, they promote to Veteran and enslave the attacker
A British Corvette, 2 British Cogs and 2 British Frigates spotted sailing towards the middle trade route
Spanish War Galleon spotted sailing down the coast of Cuba

Mar. 1656 AD; Turn 2
(PV) The Black Coral of the West picks up Perry's Pirates and Worker and sails back to Cayman Islands
(PS) The Cursed Eel sinks a Spanish War Galleon

IBT
Nothing

Apr. 1656 AD; Turn 3
Worker moves S of Cayman Islands to improve the tile

IBT
Nada

May. 1656 AD; Turn 4
(PV) the Black Coral of the West drops Perry's Pirates on Hispaniola's Northern French Fortress
(PS) The Hellish Buccaneer drop Meredith's Malefactors, Reg's Robbers and Tasgall's Thieves on the same location and destroys the road from Tortuga to Port-de-Paix

IBT
Two Spanish Matchlock Musketeers approach the Buccaneers

Jun. 1656 AD; Turn 5
Perry's Pirates kils one of the Spanish Musketeers
Tasgall's Thieves die trying to kill the last one
Meredith's Malefactors finish the job

Overview

 

[Eclipse4449]

Ahoy Arexander Blimey!
Absolutely awesome, so good in fact I'm almost willing to give up my Swashbucker position and Lead The undead Pirates if you wanted to join this future game.

What you wrote is how I hoped to write as the Swashbucklers at game time Begad! Thats put'n the ol' pirates boot to the landlubbers face I say, thats feedin' the fish. Arrr!!

 

[Arexander]

Jan. 1656 AD; Turn 0
Playing as Peglegs

Arr, matey!

Your readin' skills should be improved or I'll make you walk the plank!

 

[Eclipse4449]

Arr, matey!

Your readin' skills should be improved or I'll make you walk the plank!

Arrr ah yea that was dumb. I assumed it was them because you were playing them earlier. anyway great stuff dude

 

[Arexander]

I always choose a random civ because I like to play without planning ahead by knowing who I am. It keeps my interest in the game.

 

[Eclipse4449]

I wonder what you thought of these ideas and/or concepts

I thought of this while driving on my route
1
Will embassies be available if so will it be early, cheap to probe or would a thief/spy unit be a concept to consider? He could be invisible and could enter cities to investigate, not to destroy anything but maybe steal/pick up a waiting treasure,
2
a governor's daughter, an immobile piece that provides a small amount of victory points per turn but can be captured/picked like a treasure by for example the above mention unit. The capturing civ gets no benefit except to stop this accumulation of vp points. It could be ransomed (give it back) for a price. I know this concept is far from what is already in place but it would add a new dimension to game play.
3
OK you have created upgrades for ships, now top of the line ships of the line sail the seas, How does this concept sound? When the top of the line ship is researched it comes with a disadvantage, it now can not be healed. The 2nd from the top ship a lessor disadvantage. This concept to include the Pirates equally. The idea behind this is that it is great to research the best units for its range and power but 3rd from the top is free to repair and always upgradeable, given the appropriate tech.

I thought of the governor's daughter and the sneaking into cities because its a popular (tv/game) pirate thing

So what do you think?

 

[The Guardian]

I wonder what you thought of these ideas and/or concepts

I thought of this while driving on my route
1
Will embassies be available if so will it be early, cheap to probe or would a thief/spy unit be a concept to consider? He could be invisible and could enter cities to investigate, not to destroy anything but maybe steal/pick up a waiting treasure,
2
a governor's daughter, an immobile piece that provides a small amount of victory points per turn but can be captured/picked like a treasure by for example the above mention unit. The capturing civ gets no benefit except to stop this accumulation of vp points. It could be ransomed (give it back) for a price. I know this concept is far from what is already in place but it would add a new dimension to game play.
3
OK you have created upgrades for ships, now top of the line ships of the line sail the seas, How does this concept sound? When the top of the line ship is researched it comes with a disadvantage, it now can not be healed. The 2nd from the top ship a lessor disadvantage. This concept to include the Pirates equally. The idea behind this is that it is great to research the best units for its range and power but 3rd from the top is free to repair and always upgradeable, given the appropriate tech.

I thought of the governor's daughter and the sneaking into cities because its a popular (tv/game) pirate thing

So what do you think?

There is no way for units other than the owning civs units to enter a city. I will look at embassies and see if they can or should be available. Espionage may be useful to the human player but is irrelivant to the AI as the AI is omniscient. So I will look at that also.

I mentioned some time ago that I was going to evaluate ship costs. I think, I will increase the cost of top line ships considerablely. I am also thinking of increasing upgrade costs particularly for heavier ships. I see no game advantage to penalizing top of the line ships. Why to want to give them a disadvantage?

 

[Eclipse4449]

There is no way for units other than the owning civs units to enter a city. I will look at embassies and see if they can or should be available. Espionage may be useful to the human player but is irrelivant to the AI as the AI is omniscient. So I will look at that also.

I mentioned some time ago that I was going to evaluate ship costs. I think, I will increase the cost of top line ships considerablely. I am also thinking of increasing upgrade costs particularly for heavier ships. I see no game advantage to penalizing top of the line ships. Why to want to give them a disadvantage?

Hmm I wasn't sure if there was a neutral aspect button to check somewhere allowing it.

Don't get me wrong, I love the ship upgrades, at some point I'll sail them around too. I don't really want them to have a disadvantage per-say but instead a factor that goes with the decision to make the upgrade, if they are very expensive you might see less of them (which is accurate), think of it like a unit costs x amount of shield but the drawback in producing it is a population hit, it costs 1 population to produce for an example a Dragoon. This is kind of where I was going with the idea.

Anyway it was just a thought, I'm still playing the Netherlands and should have some good screens for you tonight
thanks
Ray

 

[The Guardian]

I don't really want them to have a disadvantage per-say but instead a factor that goes with the decision to make the upgrade, if they are very expensive you might see less of them (which is accurate), think of it like a unit costs x amount of shield but the drawback in producing it is a population hit, it costs 1 population to produce for an example a Dragoon. This is kind of where I was going with the idea.
Ray

No offense taken. Pop cost is already in there and I am also going to increase the unit cost. Capital ships should be expensive. I am also thinking of providing a list of the real ship names of capital ships and pirate ships for those who prefer naming there vessels. Leader names for pirate captains have also been added for each pirate civ.

I am also working on a new map that is much larger in size but covers a smaller map area.
(more historically accurate caribbean, less of N. America and S. America, a little more of Europe and Africa.) Both maps use the same scenario folder so you will be able to use either BIQ.