Hermetic lore for FFH DI4 (not for use outside this game)

[Bootsiuv]

That's a good idea. I may use that in some fashion at some point if you don't mind.

So, really, I suppose regeneration was OUT of my precept? I know it's a body spell, but it seems lifey to me, no?

I'm dling the lore compendium now....It would appear my original take on Sucellus would have better suited Cernunnos....although the spheres are hard to distinguish when one doesn't think deeply....nature IS life, yes?

I'm going to look further into Sucellus lore now....

 

[Bootsiuv]

Well, moving on then....

My plan is to make a large marshland, probably something like the dead marshes (thanks Tolkien!), it will be very likely along the southern coast, some miles west of the perdition glade and east of the luchuirp.

I will create a tower with a necromancer (lich probably), who must be killed before his evil spreads death throughout the lands. In keeping with lifes precept of going on no matter what....the marsh will be a VERY dangerous place, with several high powered baddies (I WISH the leash ability was available in base ffh, so the monsters would just roam the marsh instead of having to be held )

I'll likely destroy the fortress of Larok Zet, and convert the forest of Renewal to swamp and/or desert and take the tomb of sucellus away to Ljos lands.

The elven healer will still be available for rescue, but he'll be farther away, and provide a greater reward.

This will be a long term quest, which I don't expect he'll be completing until mid-game.

I only ask that gods do not mess too much with this area unless it has a relevant reason when concerning the storyline, like an evil god trying to protect the necromancer or something like that.

Just thought I would throw that out there....comments are welcomed!

 

[FireBlaze]

Haha! I've successfully posted a save!


Also, I don't see how Mammon won due to them seeking out the gods. There's a big difference between converting Cassel, and converting an offshoot of the Grigori that specifically worship the gods.

 

[Bootsiuv]

Ummmm, I see no save friend. Are you sure you attached it correctly?

 

[FireBlaze]

Look again

 

[Bootsiuv]

My bad yo.

The world is ablaze ay....you didn't burn my friggin forest did you!? That means war

 

[Dayen]

In Lore, by Compact, gods can only claim their worshippers, not merely those who please them, a definition by which I can claim just as easily as you. And Hell, next to Arwan's no-man's-souls, is the biggest collector of souls, not because of who they worship in public or knowingly, but in their hearts. Hell claims far more souls than all of the heavens.

I am sort of perturbed by this, as I'm not sure Tali would claim their souls. Perhaps Leucetious comes for them and Tali simply allows it. Thinking it over more, that seems reasonable.

I've made Gerran renounce Grigori ideals for godly intervention in his favor, seen him desire wealth enough to toss said ideals, and driven his people to lust and want more gambles with their hearts and minds even when punished for it. I have, in effect, made the Grigori into moral sell-out masochists for money and favors.

Cassiel preached self-reliance, not disdain for the gods. While Cassiel would never worship a god -- after renouncing his own angelic nature, it would be hypocritical of him to do so -- I doubt he has ever made any great effort to prevent the Grigori from doing as they please, as freedom is one of the cornerstones of Grigori culture. Indeed, it seems to me that this isn't a victory on the scale that Mammon seems to believe; to paraphrase one of my favorite authors (no, it's not Richard Dawkins) "people need gods not to provide for them, but to blame."

My thoughts:

Finnegan: while he continues to please Tali in his nearly fool-hardy efforts to explore lairs and ruins, Tali probably doesn't claim him as a follower. Finnegan is Cernunnos' champion and, as a neutral god unconcerned with his worship, Tali is happy to let Cernunnos handle the hard part of grooming a mortal champion.

Stevanson: again, Tali favors Stevanson's actions, although he is beginning to question the man's motivations.

Comillo: is of little interest to Tali, as this is a man with no joy in his heart. Something to work on, perhaps...

Worship of Tali in New Grigoria: perhaps there ought to be an actual Foxman in the near future, although truly organized worship seems to be a ways off for the Grigori.

Discovery of Festivals and Exploration: both serve to further Tali's purposes, but Gerran's people have not yet reached the point specified by the Minstrel. He will continue to assist them in recapturing lost arts.

Sucellus & the confusing Venn diagram that is Life and Nature: while I wholly agree that the portfolios overlap, I think it should be pointed out that Cernunnos oversees a specific type of life. Sucellus controls the primal essence of it, and that's where there's room for difference. Cernunnos speaks for the trees, to bastardize Dr. Seuss. Sucellus gives birth to them. Regeneration very much falls within Sucellus' purview in my opinion.

Tali has little to do in this intervention, so I'll wait until the end and plug some holes if I see them.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Well, moving on then....

My plan is to make a large marshland, probably something like the dead marshes (thanks Tolkien!), it will be very likely along the southern coast, some miles west of the perdition glade and east of the luchuirp.

I will create a tower with a necromancer (lich probably), who must be killed before his evil spreads death throughout the lands. In keeping with lifes precept of going on no matter what....the marsh will be a VERY dangerous place, with several high powered baddies (I WISH the leash ability was available in base ffh, so the monsters would just roam the marsh instead of having to be held )

I'll likely destroy the fortress of Larok Zet, and convert the forest of Renewal to swamp and/or desert and take the tomb of sucellus away to Ljos lands.

The elven healer will still be available for rescue, but he'll be farther away, and provide a greater reward.

This will be a long term quest, which I don't expect he'll be completing until mid-game.

I only ask that gods do not mess too much with this area unless it has a relevant reason when concerning the storyline, like an evil god trying to protect the necromancer or something like that.

Just thought I would throw that out there....comments are welcomed!

Sounds interesting, could the Broken Speluncer not be used instead? I am vaguely familer with it's lore that it held the High Mage of Death during the great empire of Patria. so as long as the lore doesn't conflict i don't see why you can't have it as this Necromancer instead of a nameless one.

I am unsure of why you wish to destroy the fortress... You could easily link the fortress to the Necromancer afterwards. But to take away a item that is allready on the map must be explained for Verdian otherwise he's going to be very confused when he leads an army to the fortress only for it to look like it was never there.

Perhaps the forest of Renewal burns along with Bhaals firestorm because of the weaking caused by the Necromancer. (also add in some of those skeleton spawn spots) Or have the Fawn killed. Loads of ways to link them. Sorry for being blunt it's just i'm pretty sure one of the Rules of Intervention is not to just change what Verdian has allready explored without reasoning.

If you really want to make the Quest hard and end game material i wouldn't mind having you place this Necromance in the Desert with the Barbarians. This way i could have this necromancer be the one from my own quest that is corrupting the lands by trying to raise a dragon from the dead.

Hope those inputs help. I like that you are looking into defineing the precept of Life more. Perhaps the saving of outcast and endagered mortal species? Grigori seems to be very democratic. You could have Ogres or Minotaurs or whatever seek help and safety. *shrug*

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Bhaal: Shame about all the problems you've been having with the saves. I edited in your first request for jungle tho i know it wasn't enough. I was sure someone managed to get in your other edit untill i saw that Verdian had found the Pire near the Dwarves. Now that he has found it shall we leave some ruins in it's place or a volcanno? Otherwise it's a big intervention for a pyramid to dissapear from the map. Like the random fires started! that should be fun.

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Dayen: The original Grigori did allow the private worship of gods it just had a very firm line between religion and state. The two would never meet. Mammons victory is a subjective one because to mammon it is a big step in the cause of corruption while to others it can be seen as a small step as the people of New Grigori were allready saying they would worship gods anyway. The governement and religion are now linked in the new Grigori lands. People will now feel they are allowed to call on gods for help with anything. Mammon takes this as a big victory while the others may only see this as the New Grigori people returning to normal mortal behaviour. I'd suggest we write it up a bit clearer for Verdian because at the moment the thought process is hard to follow unless you are good at looking at different perspectives. Mammons current update looks more like a emotional victory monologue you find being said by cheesy 60's hollywood bad guys. So a little clarification might be nice. (Perhaps a visit from a opposing dieties angel?)

Also: Stevanson; i'm amused that you are worried about his motives and i'm worried about his actions not being enough.

 

[Lade]

Junil: I don’t mind how you use the Bannor. I would assume that the crusade could start any time after this intervention when the Dovellio prove their war-like ways. Hopefully then the Grigori will have contacted them so that the Bannor could ask for aide.
I’d prefer the none corrupt. As their are only 3 good civs on the map to begin with, if we make the Bannor Corupt then it is down to Cardith Lorda to be the beacon of goodness. However the corrupted version could be more entertaining for you too write especially as they are still led by Sabethiel.

Thats true. It might suit our needs much better to have the ultimate good nation. Fine, I guess I'll settle for that. Since thats the case, I think I'll change my hero from an angel to a dwarven paladin named Urist. He'd attempt to get the Grigori to take the right path and help destory all that evil that keeps rising up. Fires and vampires and hells oh my!

Of course, if someone feels it would be far to repetitive to have another dwarven hero, I can come up with a different concept. It wouldn't be a problem

EDIT: Another possibility would be to have a corrupt Order religion, and have falsehood spreading throughout their empire, then getting Gerran to assasinate every Confessor/Acolyte in the empire using some invisible/hidden nationality assasins, then write a story about Sabathiel leading the real Order to take over and crusade against all falsehood AND evil...

 

[Lgaard]

Bhaal: Shame about all the problems you've been having with the saves. I edited in your first request for jungle tho i know it wasn't enough. I was sure someone managed to get in your other edit untill i saw that Verdian had found the Pire near the Dwarves. Now that he has found it shall we leave some ruins in it's place or a volcanno? Otherwise it's a big intervention for a pyramid to dissapear from the map. Like the random fires started! that should be fun.

I can second that. I ask you all to be careful with destroying/replacing/changing features that Verdian/Garren has already seen. If it's really important for your plots, you can do that, but it needs more explanation/noticing (narratives!). Please try to arrange it in tha way, that is not just "switching the places".
Is displacing the Pyre really that important? I thought its location in the dwarven land a good reason to even increase animosities between Clan and Khazad. Dwarves, with their practical nature may start to use the pyre as a source of fire mana for a purpose of building their forges etc. Orcs my treat is as a blasphemy. This could even be a reason for a war. And put the role of the dwarves (Garren's ally) a bit more ambigious than it had seem to be.
Same goes for a Tomb of Sucellus. Narrative is needed to change the location. And again: is it really needed to have it moved?

 

[Diamondeye]

Concerning Paal and Stevenson: I think Paal is going to stay where he is until he can defeat Baal, but that is ultimately Verdian's choice. But since Mammon's curse is lifted, it looks like Stevenson will have a better shot at helping him now, and I see no problem in them working together afterwards. After killing Baal, I can't really say how much use I'll have of Paal...

Also, not entirely ontopic: We need moar Venn diagrammes!

 

[Lgaard]

Question to Dean. Not of that much importance, but just to safisfy my own curiosity:
In your definition greed seems to be the intention of collecting resources (or am I missing the point?). At the start of this story Gerran already expressed such intention. He wants to build a civilization - that is more or less equal to collecting resources. Even the name of the core game is "Civilization" isn't it? So, there is no point in even starting a game without subscribing to what you are claiming to be Mammon's domain. Ergo, you have "won" before we have even started.
I must be missing something, cause it sound like Mammon's sardonic laughter form the depth of his hell.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Thats true. It might suit our needs much better to have the ultimate good nation. Fine, I guess I'll settle for that. Since thats the case, I think I'll change my hero from an angel to a dwarven paladin named Urist. He'd attempt to get the Grigori to take the right path and help destory all that evil that keeps rising up. Fires and vampires and hells oh my!

Of course, if someone feels it would be far to repetitive to have another dwarven hero, I can come up with a different concept. It wouldn't be a problem

EDIT: Another possibility would be to have a corrupt Order religion, and have falsehood spreading throughout their empire, then getting Gerran to assasinate every Confessor/Acolyte in the empire using some invisible/hidden nationality assasins, then write a story about Sabathiel leading the real Order to take over and crusade against all falsehood AND evil...

So the order religion would be false and the Bannor led by the real Sabathiel would have to crusade to take over the holy city and turn the Order back into it's proper worship? sounds interesting, lots of potential. Who would you want to found the False Order then?

Remember to take into account the fact that Decieus (sp) leads the calaibam. I'm not sure on the original lore from the scenarios but originally he was forced out of Bannor by the corrupted order as a traitor.

Although perhaps then Decieus could found the false order as a traitor of Bannor in Calabaim? You'd probably have to get Vandals input as he has plans for the Vampires but i'm not sure even he has considered the significance of the Ex-Bannor leader.

What do you mean by the hero though? Don't the Bannor have a guy who can recruit people as a hero?

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@DiamondEye. Thanks for the input. If you wish to leave it up to Verdian i will write a scene open endedly about the two With Paal being stubborn and just wanting to stay and Stevanson getting annoyed and the only thing that they agree on is that Gerran hasn't helped them enough in what they wish to do. Gift Stevanson enraged and them both hidden nationality then quest Verdian to decide their futures himself. He can allways just decalre nationality with both of them.
And if we are lucky Stevanson will rush Baal and either win or weaken him enough for Paal.
Or he will wander of and slay some orcs up north. Oh well Stevanson isn't really turning out like i'd hoped.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

A few final points before I give my changes.

First, has Acheron spawned yet? If not, would anyone mind if I spawned him in any given barbarian city? Doesn't matter where, really. Farther away from the Grigori might be for the best, to weaken others. Near Clan lands, since they're the current bad boy who might lead? Acheron usually comes out by this point anyway, so I feel it could work well; Acheron is a natural limiter on any of his neighbors, and some of the AI could use that. Especially the Orcs.

Second, Ravus, any thoughts on the PM I sent you?

 

[Lgaard]

First, has Acheron spawned yet?

It has. West of Ljosalfar, S of Kurios, NNW of Khazad. Not that far away form Grigori. It is in desert/mountains area, so not very interesting for colonization. Desert also prevents from spamming barbarian warriors.
Do you need a dragon in a particular location? How about spawning another one?

Clan allied with an evil dragon sounds fun. And Jonas is actually offically the worst enemy of Cardith Lorda. Starts to make even more sense...

 

[Dean_the_Young]

It has. West of Ljosalfar, S of Kurios, NNW of Khazad. Not that far away form Grigori. It is in desert/mountains area, so not very interesting for colonization. Desert also prevents from spamming barbarian warriors.
Do you need a dragon in a particular location? How about spawning another one?

Clan allied with an evil dragon sounds fun. And Jonas is actually offically the worst enemy of Cardith Lorda. Starts to make even more sense...

Hm. This is definitely something I want the input from other people for. I hadn't thought about putting another Dragon, and I'm loathe to, as a matter of fact.

Is there a barbarian city nearer the Clan we can shift it (and the Dragon Hoard) to? Or even just create one? It's not so much about exact location as proximity. Even with peace with barbs, the cultural assault can hem in the Orcs, cutting them off from resources/luxuries that might otherwise fuel them more. Then, even if they still do have a meteoric rise, if/when peace with barbs ends, they have Acheron next door.

Someone (not me) might want to give the Kuriotates a boost in the meantime, though. See if any of their cities need replacing for optimization.


Any problems with my end, though? Moving Acheron and Dragon Hoarde to a (possibly to-be-created) barbarian city near the Clan?

 

[Lgaard]

Someone (not me) might want to give the Kuriotates a boost in the meantime, though. See if any of their cities need replacing for optimization.

Any problems with my end, though? Moving Acheron and Dragon Hoarde to a (possibly to-be-created) barbarian city near the Clan?

Kurios are sort of pain to me. I cannot stand looking into how stupidly they placed their cities, but their terrains are so good anyway, so they are overpeforming even though. I started to think about changing 2 of their poorly placed cities into 1 with good location, but it might make tham a real economic monster.

Acheron has found his place in the story already (see Camulus' part). I also considered him to be a part of the long time quest/story for Khazad. I would not recommend to move him, but if you still wish, go ahead, I think it could be arranged much easier narratively than eg. replacing Pyre. After all Acheron is a dragon; dragons fly (not to be confused with dragonflies).
As for other means to add a barb city with cultural spread - go ahead. It's up to you. But consult Cumulus' ideas on Barbarian Kingdom first.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Flying towards the Clan, who would be a greater tribe of Orcs to get wealth from, was my plan. In fact, I wouldn't mind him leaving his old hoard behind, as he gets a new and better hoard (narrative) from the Clan.


Cumulus! Your input. Would you mind if Acheron were moved to a Barbarian city near the Clan, ideally between/adjacent Clan and Kuriotates?

 

[Dayen]

Cumulus! Your input

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINNNN!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Lgaard]

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINNNN!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Cumulonimbus, even.