Hermetic lore for FFH DI4 (not for use outside this game)

[Dean_the_Young]

He, you've got to love those who loose and make it seem like a victory. "Yes, yes, we lost the entire continent. No! This is a victory, see? Because now their empire is spread too thinly, and they will soon die! Yes, I'm serious! Ha! You can't fire me! I'm the best general we have!"

And if it's true?

 

[Babale]

Good one? Bad decision, since the definition of Good is valuing human life.

Neutral? Good decision.


Did you just edit-ninja me?

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Did you just edit-ninja me?

Maaaaaybe.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Hmm. So based on the narrative, it seems that Finnegan actually does worship Cernunnos(and Kilmorph, and Tali at the same time?!?). I'm not quite sure what I want to do with him at this point.

As far as the Elves and FoL, if you guys want to force a break in their war so one can found FoL, that's fine with me. On the other hand, if you want the war to continue, that also works. Whoever founds FoL, elves or not, will receive my blessing.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

And me, in his heart. If he can worship multiple gods, I claim my right to him.

Let the war continue. Who knows: something surprising might happen.

 

[Lgaard]

Let the war continue. Who knows: something surprising might happen.

Good. But dont make us waiting for your ideas till the very last second. We have to find the way to balance things, afterall.

 

[zacman]

The huge skeleton that can be added in worldbuilder its nearly 5 plots by 10 plots. What is the lore behind this skeleton?

In one of the scenarios you play as auric and must conqure pristean pass so you can wake the white dragon of mulcrum. These are the bones of of it. If you want to use them for something else its fine with me though.

 

[Vandal Warlord]

Ravus-
Please wrap up Arawn's Tower. I have no further uses for it. The High Priestess Rose, however, will.

Lgaard-
Help wise, I am good thanks.

As for Comillo, I lay no claim for him.

 

[Lgaard]

As for Comillo, I lay no claim for him.

Yet (I hope).

 

[Vandal Warlord]

Yet (I hope).

I believe that is called reading between the lines.

 

[Diamondeye]

I think I can get to the save wednesday. Although some of my changes may seem unprepondered, know that they're all part of a (big, sinister, cruel and world-destruction-ambitious) plan.

 

[Lade]

When would be a good time for me to start a crusade from the Bannor?

Also, would you prefer that these Bannor be like the "True" Bannor, or the corrupted Bannor present in the scenarios?

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Corrupted Bannor. I can help with that, if you want...

(Bannor + Esus = FUN)

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Responses & asking for input:
Probably going to do changes in one big go then write narrative pieces in parts again. I will probably take the save tomorrow some time so i'm asking for input now. If i miss anyone out or someone comes up with something i ask Lgaard to edit it to balance. I won't be able to do much this Friday so i'm getting it done early.

Agares: Idea's for the partnership or breakup of Paal and Stevanson.
Paal and Stevanson could become disillusioned with the Grigori and between them conspire to grow stronger in adventurers before returning to defeat Baal.
(Problem is that Paal would leave his vigil and i’m not sure how that would interact in your own storyline.)
- They could gain hidden nationality and leave to the north to battle orcs and lizardmen.
Stevanson and Paal could come to blows. letting them part ways and leaving stevanson from interacting with your own storyline.
- Gift enraged (and maybe hidden nationality as well) To Stevanson.
Personally i’d like an ally to help stevanson build himself up in power but i need your imput on Paal before i can write up something for Stevanson.

Aeron: I see three possible outcomes from the Tower of Aeron storyline and one way it can be linked to your idea with Caal. As you have no use for it i can wrap it up but i’d like your okay on it and what you think of including your Caal Plan with the Fall of the Tower.
- We say that some people left to the north to be with the Grigori. (Gift a village next to New Grigoria - Rose as a Mayor? Or as a captive?). This is part of the Reward for Stevanson and keeps a group of Arawn worshipers in the Grigori capital for future plots.
- Some people who still worship Arawn leave on the boat. These could end up in the Vampire lands and taken as slaves (Free Food) Some becoming Enraged Vampires or whatever you need. If not needed yourself i would claim they sailed to the Barbarian Nation to be used in a future Dragon Raising Ritual.
- Some of the town and tower of Arawn becoming enraged at being treated this way. (Become a barbarian City)

We Could link this to Caal by having him flee to the new enraged town. between his own woes and the towns it could be here that the rebellion of rage is formed. Personally i would like to see a confrontation between Caal in a rebellious city of Rage confronted by the newest Hero, Comillo, who is a Vampire (Who could be a outcast pacifist?) It could be after this that the remains of the people escape to the land that Comillo mentioned. (If this is what you need.)
Thus the Calabain could later hate the Grigori because they sheltered one of their outcasts... ?

All in all just want to get your input on whether to Join the plots of Caal and Arawn together for simplicity and to stop cluttering up the map. If not then i will just wrap up the Tower as stated above.

Mammon: So what you are saying is that originally the New Grigori people were not worshiping... They were merely acknowledging the gods. Their attempts to please all gods equally was not true worship to higher powers. They were trying to still cling to the ways of Cassiel. By removing your precept you have made the people of New Grigori despair and turn to other gods to solve this problem for them. They have sought the shortcut of greed instead of trying to fight through the curse themselves without the help of gods. You. As Mommon. Have turned them into true worshippers who now beg and plead for help (a greedy solution.) from Gods.
Is this how you view it as having happened? Because if so then i can’t discount it and it is indeed true. As Camulos i was hoping that their worship would become choatic and spark wars. This is indeed a greedy step into wanting the benifits of true worship instead of the acknowledgment and respect that was happening in the first turn.

Junil: I don’t mind how you use the Bannor. I would assume that the crusade could start any time after this intervention when the Dovellio prove their war-like ways. Hopefully then the Grigori will have contacted them so that the Bannor could ask for aide.
I’d prefer the none corrupt. As their are only 3 good civs on the map to begin with, if we make the Bannor Corupt then it is down to Cardith Lorda to be the beacon of goodness. However the corrupted version could be more entertaining for you too write especially as they are still led by Sabethiel.

Mulcurm: Thanks for the info. I may place the skeleton in the middle of the desert and claim it to be the True Dragon. That Embodied all precedents. (Unlike Red having Bhaals Fire, White having Mulcurms Ice.) This will be majorily outside of lore so i’d need agreement. It also wouldn’t be the one raised if i do that. The one raised would be the smaller skeleton and would just be a undead Red Dragon for late game terror.

Cernunnos: As Their has been no real reason for the war to stop and the Ljosalfar is still alive i shall continue the war then with your blessing. (Unless someone else says no and has a reason.) We shall re-look at it the next intervention.

 

[Bootsiuv]

I don't understand exactly why Mammon is claiming such a swooping victory.....how is the god of greed associated with agnosticsim?

I'm not following the line of thought. Please enlighten me further as to why you claim a huge moral victory greater than any other god, when he clearly seems to favor Kilmorph, Tali, or Cernunnos over Mammon.

EDIT: For the record, I'm not trying to be a dick....I'm honestly curious as to your line of thought here, because I'm having a little trouble following how the events in the story led to such an unabashed victory for you....help a brother out.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Mammon: So what you are saying is that originally the New Grigori people were not worshiping... They were merely acknowledging the gods. Their attempts to please all gods equally was not true worship to higher powers. They were trying to still cling to the ways of Cassiel. By removing your precept you have made the people of New Grigori despair and turn to other gods to solve this problem for them. They have sought the shortcut of greed instead of trying to fight through the curse themselves without the help of gods. You. As Mommon. Have turned them into true worshippers who now beg and plead for help (a greedy solution.) from Gods.
Is this how you view it as having happened? Because if so then i can’t discount it and it is indeed true. As Camulos i was hoping that their worship would become choatic and spark wars. This is indeed a greedy step into wanting the benifits of true worship instead of the acknowledgment and respect that was happening in the first turn.

Trying to make peace with the jobs, ever doing favors, are not worship. Gods exist, and their followers and agents must be dealt with when they approach. But the Grigori way is not to rely on the Gods, no matter what. Even during the near-extinction of the Age of Ice, they would sooner die than beg assistance from any god. And yet, in two short turns, what do I drive Gerran to do?

I no longer consider them Grigori. From now on, they are the Gerranites.


One, small, correction though: it isn't seeking the gods aid that makes them greedy. That just makes them normal, and non-Grigori. What makes them greedy is why they resorted to it: so they could lives of unnecessary danger, so that they would not suffer in failures of ambition for money, for power, for personal gain. They did not resort to the gods to escape gambling: I took it away from them, punishing them for the sins. They turned to the gods to return to it, so that they would lose less when they lost gambles of chance, of fortune.

Under my intervention, the Grigori would not gamble without risking severe loss, which in turn would prevent them from gambles at all. In turning to the Gods for protection from me, they are seeking to return to gambles of mind, body, and soul. Which, quite ironically, sends them towards me.


But, rest assured, there's still plenty of strife and chaos to stir up with the Grigori.

I don't understand exactly why Mammon is claiming such a swooping victory.....how is the god of greed associated with agnosticsim?

I'm not following the line of thought. Please enlighten me further as to why you claim a huge moral victory greater than any other god, when he clearly seems to favor Kilmorph, Tali, or Cernunnos over Mammon.

Because not only does he does pray to Kilimorph, Tali, and Cernunnos, but he does so for desires in my sphere. I have taken the essence of what the Grigori are, a people who do not need or rely on Gods, and shattered it. I have made them into worshippers like any other people. That is my big (im)moral victory, though one I could not have achieved without Kilimorph and Cernunnos ignorring his Grigori ways and also tempting him to renounce agnosticism.

Thanks guys!

Who Gerran favors is not the same as who has claim to his soul. Gods of Hell get to lay claim on actions as well, and Gerran's actions certainly show him driving him towards me, not away.

EDIT: For the record, I'm not trying to be a dick....I'm honestly curious as to your line of thought here, because I'm having a little trouble following how the events in the story led to such an unabashed victory for you....help a brother out.

See above.

 

[Bootsiuv]

I see now.

That being said, couldn't I say he must worship the god of life because he hasn't cut down trees and he's captured rather than killed animals etc. ad infitum....

I see your point, of course, but seems a little subjective, no?

Following that line of thought to it's logical end-game conclusion, and any number of gods (probably all actually) will be able to claim victory through some indirect actions.

Aren't we seeking his WORSHIP? Isn't that the only way one of us can win?

(I apologize for all of the questions, but this is my first DI game, and these seem like important things to know).

 

[Dean_the_Young]

I see now.

That being said, couldn't I say he must worship the god of life because he hasn't cut down trees and he's captured rather than killed animals etc. ad infitum....

I see your point, of course, but seems a little subjective, no?

Well, half of that's the points. Evil is very subjective. Whether people worship me deliberately or unknowingly by actions and deeds, I can claim them. In FFH, that's why the Evil gods claim so many more souls than the good gods: they have more subjective standards. And the gods with the most/strongest claims win. Since all evil Gods share the Great Machine of Hell, only one of us Evil gods has to succede to win the entire soul.

Of course, in this instance, I believe Gerran has done more actions befitting an (unintentional) worshiper of me than any other god. But I'm just saying on the above.


And actually, you got the precept of life wrong. Precept of life isn't about do no harm/cut down no trees, but about the struggle to stay alive. Or, as Magister C has put it, "Life already entails fighting on for some obsession past the point where it would make sense to give up. It represents giving things up for something greater." The Nature would care more about not hurting the trees/wildlife under a 'all lives are equal' philsophy, but as a Neutral god he would lay claim more from intent (why he wouldn't do it) than actual action. As an evil god, intent only gives me more claim.

Following that line of thought to it's logical end-game conclusion, and any number of gods (probably all actually) will be able to claim victory through some indirect actions.

Sure. But I was claiming victory for a single battle, not ultimate victory. Different gods can claim victories for various things, but I claimed victory for driving Gerran to renounce Grigori ideals. Which, at the same time, isn't something the 'good' and 'neutral' gods would delight in, even though agnosticism is a pesky little thing.

Aren't we seeking his WORSHIP? Isn't that the only way one of us can win?

(I apologize for all of the questions, but this is my first DI game, and these seem like important things to know).

I don't see why that should be so. I'm Mammon, God of Greed. I want the world, but it doesn't matter how. If the Grigori become my tool, fine. If they don't, sucks to be them. I'll try and grab their souls anyway, because I'm the god of Greed, but I don't need them to win.

Similar things vary from the other gods. Agares could claim victory if the Grigori are so corrupted they take delight in it (even if they justify it otherwise). Ceridwen, if she was playing, could call victory at AC=100. And so on.

What God are you again?

 

[Bootsiuv]

I am Sucellus, god of Life....and thanks for the info.

I see how the life precept differs from nature, although I don't really know how I could translate that in-game.

Make a REALLY HARD quest that he should have given up on? I'll have to dwell on it further I suppose.

You made some valid points. I have to go take an enormous dump, and I shall dwell on what you said a little further, for I am ever the philosophical man.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Not giving up and not taking the easy escape would be the biggest parts, I would think. Maybe a quest that requires him to go through with it despite poisoned/diseased cutting off most of his regeneration (to simulate pushing on without fail).