Hermetic lore for FFH DI4 (not for use outside this game)

[Babale]

Hypoborem as your messenger would be quite awesome Although it won't work at all.

Also, I found a way to make an ogre worked. He's severely weakened, and Kilmorph will send a Wood Golem to assist. The golem SHOULD be used only to recapture the castle and then defend it, although our player may do something different. But if he uses the golem to, say, sack an Elven city rather than killing the ogre, he'll get an immediante benefit (capturing a city) with a long term loss (wrath of Kilmorph.)

Also-the Held cultist to the south west is summoning pit beasts. We need a fix, or is that OK?

 

[Dayen]

After being reminded that I about the spam, I am curious to know how I will purvey my messages as Aeron. I think I might as well create my own messengers. If there is an answer in the FFH lore please tell me.

Lore answers are fairly slim inasfar as how the gods would intervene since, you know, the Compact prevents that (fingers crossed, wink wink, nudge nudge).

According to Celtic mythology, however, Aeron -- in the guise of Agrona -- was also associated with rivers (as well as slaughter). So perhaps making the rivers actually run red...with actual blood would do it for you.

Insofar as messengers go, just about anyone could conceivably fill the role. Not every god is going to have an easy fit (i.e. Tali + bards, minstrels, creative but irresponsible sorts), and that's part of what makes intervening so amusing.

 

[Onionsoilder]

OOC Gods Only:
3) Changed raw mana south of Grigori land to Earth Mana.
6) Added a wood golem to Grigori. Plot Central character. (Kilmorph's Servent)[/spoiler]

I would object to both of these.

3) Changing raw mana nodes, especially when the player has done nothing to warrant it, should be frowned upon. My changing this, you not only provided nothing beneficial, but you pigeonholed him into a certain path should he need to make use of it.
6) Far too strong of a unit to give him in the early game; Ogres are not that powerful, and a squad of 4-5 warriors can easily kill one for a quest. On the other hand, players can powerfully abusea unit like a wood golem, especially when given early. Also, note the rules laid out for this game, particularly these:

Please don't give me a reward unless I do something you like [...] getting something for nothing isn't fun.

and

III. Thou shalt not reveal the secrets of knowledge or the heavens to mortals.

-Be prudent in giving out free units and technologies, make sure they are at the current level. For instance, do not add Champions if I yet have to discover Bronze Working.

Wood Golems are even stronger than axemen, and I don't think he's even reached Mining yet, let along Bronze Working. In addition, Wood Golems are not related to Kilmorph... they are created by the Luchuruip, whoes patron god is Nantosuelta, not Kilmorph.

 

[Lgaard]

A few words of comments after seeing how the story evolves:

It was a gorgeous start. We were subtle at the first round, and Verdian liked it. He seems to be much more concentrated at story-building and even psychological aspect of the characters, so let he be like that. Let’s not change the approach dramatically.
Of course, as the game goes on, real conflicts between gods and civilization will start, and the game will go wilder. That’s natural. But for now let the things evolved slowly.
Mind that we are just starting a campaign and first several posts (first two rounds?) will set some standards.
I propose to stick to the following informal points:

1. Pls, pls, pls, mind The Compact. Verdian pays attention to this aspect. Onionsoilder is right we should be more careful. Please edit the narratives, so the gods use their avatars or some other more obscure means for communication with Gerran, instead of manifesting themselves.
2. I also agree with him on his mana/wood golem remarks. Mind that in “normal” game it needs an epic unique feature (The Standing Stones) to get earth mana at such early stage of a game. I would also suggest not giving him combat units (only scouting or flavour units) unless you got a good reason AND the player shows he deserves it.
3. I would also appreciate not changing the landscape Verdian has already revealed. Some minor changes (as resources, units etc.) as well as the more fundamental changes if crucial to an interesting plot AND explained by narratives are allowed, though. If it is not to disturb your plots, please place the new features (citadels, castles and other real estates) in the parts of the map which is not revealed yet.
4. Each time you plan a new plot think of most subtle way to realize it. I can assure you that the story will not be worse if you do not ask him to do really spectacular epic job (just yet). Technically you can add the barbarian Avatar of Wrath next door and the Mithril Golem in player’s control to handle the problem, but it is exactly same level of excitement (if not higher) if there is a scout and a bear in place of the former two at this stage of game.
5. Do not afraid to give long time quests too. Pre-meditate them. It DEOS NOT mean I encourage you to give mega-quests with great bonuses from the very start. Begin the story with just an warning, information, advice (no intervention yet). Then evolve the plot into something more complicated in the future. It is really great for the player when he feels his decisions have long term consequences and the plot not ends in “quest -> reward/punishment” two-round cycle.
6. If you find it hard to decide what is still OK and what is too much, try to think of what is the comparable in-game to what you are planning to do. The Standing Stone comparison (point 2 above) stands as an example
7. Be transparent (at least for the gods) – share your plan with other deities, for comments. (Unless you have reasons to keep them in secret)
8. “Discover something” or “contact someone” are fine tasks, but they are like to be realized sooner or later regardless the level of effort from the player. Think of something that will require at least a decision. Or use such simple tasks as a first step to premeditated longer plots.
9. Once again and forever: BE SUBTLE.

I hope you have not felt I was to say you are doing a bad job. It was not my intention. After all I am inexperienced DI player and might be very wrong. It was just my observation on what is Verdian’s playing style. And I felt obliged, as I am Dagda-policeman here.

 

[Lgaard]

When I get the save, I plan on placing a trapped Epyrean Missionary somewhere, some distance away, trrapped and then give him a quest to free him.

Think it out twice, before you do it. Empyrean is a late religion. If he grabs a missionary, he will get a holy city, which is... well... Afterall, I really do not think he (Verdian) will spread Empyrean, just because Grigori is not the best civ to have holy cities. And Garren does not seem to be devoted to any god just yet.
However, if you think of placing the missionary really far away, as to make it a middle/late game to grab him, and/or use another civilization (like Kurios?) to ask Grigori to free him on their behalf (and then give him to Cardith Lorda?)... That's a different story.
Just a suggestion, though.

 

[Diamondeye]

Also-the Held cultist to the south west is summoning pit beasts. We need a fix, or is that OK?

Working as intended. He is an illusionist, so they shouldn't actually kill anyone.

Are you sure he is Held, though? I don't remember giving him that one...

A few words of comments after seeing how the story evolves:

It was a gorgeous start. We were subtle at the first round, and Verdian liked it. He seems to be much more concentrated at story-building and even psychological aspect of the characters, so let he be like that. Let’s not change the approach dramatically.
Of course, as the game goes on, real conflicts between gods and civilization will start, and the game will go wilder. That’s natural. But for now let the things evolved slowly.
Mind that we are just starting a campaign and first several posts (first two rounds?) will set some standards.
I propose to stick to the following informal points:

1. Pls, pls, pls, mind The Compact. Verdian pays attention to this aspect. Onionsoilder is right we should be more careful. Please edit the narratives, so the gods use their avatars or some other more obscure means for communication with Gerran, instead of manifesting themselves.
2. I also agree with him on his mana/wood golem remarks. Mind that in “normal” game it needs an epic unique feature (The Standing Stones) to get earth mana at such early stage of a game. I would also suggest not giving him combat units (only scouting or flavour units) unless you got a good reason AND the player shows he deserves it.
3. I would also appreciate not changing the landscape Verdian has already revealed. Some minor changes (as resources, units etc.) as well as the more fundamental changes if crucial to an interesting plot AND explained by narratives are allowed, though. If it is not to disturb your plots, please place the new features (citadels, castles and other real estates) in the parts of the map which is not revealed yet.
4. Each time you plan a new plot think of most subtle way to realize it. I can assure you that the story will not be worse if you do not ask him to do really spectacular epic job (just yet). Technically you can add the barbarian Avatar of Wrath next door and the Mithril Golem in player’s control to handle the problem, but it is exactly same level of excitement (if not higher) if there is a scout and a bear in place of the former two at this stage of game.
5. Do not afraid to give long time quests too. Pre-meditate them. It DEOS NOT mean I encourage you to give mega-quests with great bonuses from the very start. Begin the story with just an warning, information, advice (no intervention yet). Then evolve the plot into something more complicated in the future. It is really great for the player when he feels his decisions have long term consequences and the plot not ends in “quest -> reward/punishment” two-round cycle.
6. If you find it hard to decide what is still OK and what is too much, try to think of what is the comparable in-game to what you are planning to do. The Standing Stone comparison (point 2 above) stands as an example
7. Be transparent (at least for the gods) – share your plan with other deities, for comments. (Unless you have reasons to keep them in secret)
8. “Discover something” or “contact someone” are fine tasks, but they are like to be realized sooner or later regardless the level of effort from the player. Think of something that will require at least a decision. Or use such simple tasks as a first step to premeditated longer plots.
9. Once again and forever: BE SUBTLE.

I hope you have not felt I was to say you are doing a bad job. It was not my intention. After all I am inexperienced DI player and might be very wrong. It was just my observation on what is Verdian’s playing style. And I felt obliged, as I am Dagda-policeman here.

I agree with everything in this post. Completely.

I have no problem being direct with players I feel are compromising the spirit of the game, and at the moment I feel that the Kilmorph interventions are being unnecessarily "blunt". Be subtle. Also, as LGaard (I think?) mentioned, Aeron could not possibly appear in person. Of course, it could be an illusion (which would fit with Gerran suddenly being able to see something that is far away (the Spire of Rage)).

I hope my small terrain changes around the Cultist and below the Imp are in order. Please note that I also named the forest southwest of him "Perdition Glade". You are free to use this for small stories but the idea is that this is the sinister part of the forest. Also, I deleted two animals, a Bear and a combat III Spider, around the Cultist. I think we should cut down on the huge amount of Giant Spiders in general, as these often ruin the fun of exploring, but that's just an idea.

 

[Lgaard]

I have just posted a kick-off post for a "dwarven story". I hope Kilmorph will takeover at some point.
I keept the first post in the form of a "random event", so it is not Dagda's intervention. I planned that post will be followed with a intervention, depending on Verdian's response:

If yes:

‘But bear in mind that we are giving you our most secret knowledge. Should you betray us and our friendship will come to a bitter end.’

<khazad map.jpg>

‘I hope the stories of your bravery and honesty are not unjustified. Me and my troop will show you the way to our Thane, so you may discuss with him personally. Let Kilmorph bless you for your wisdom!’

OOC: Quest:
- contact Khazad
- negotiate border opening with the Khazad
- find Gal’Dur
- conquer Gal’Dur
- give Gal’Dur back to Khazad

(dwarven scouts would refuse to go elsewhere than west of Kaladan Mountains. They will also abandon you if not joined by the adventurer at the end of this round (turn 100) at the latest)

Intervention: (+10 to relation with Khazad; give “Map Making” to Arturus; 2 dwarven scouts (with guerrilla I&II; stoneskin?) in New Grigoria; map – the ‘khazad map.jpg’ file revealed in the post)

If no:

‘Farewell, then.’

Intervention: (-1 to relations with Khazad)

If something else

Apropriate reaction to be made up

Your feelings?

 

[Diamondeye]

Good enough - and no blasphemic English language errors.

 

[Dayen]

Hahaha, dwarves pushing for war with orcs. Priceless. Tali is totally amused, even if he hates war.

What Lgaard wrote -- about being subtle -- really ought to be your credo in this. Futurama said it best:
God Entity: Bender, being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch, like a safecracker or a pickpocket.
Bender: Or a guy who burns down a bar for the insurance money.
God Entity: Yes, if he makes it look like an electrical thing. If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Remember that (most of) the gods have archangels to handle their day-to-day. If you can't figure out how to make the jump from A -- need for intervention -- to B -- actual intervention -- then assume your archangel knows how to make it happen.

Unfortunately for Aeron, who has no angel, it's a much more difficult proposition. He would have some way of contacting his worshippers, but I don't think at this stage of development (i.e. with no wars taking place) he would have many if any at all on this continent. He may also be gun shy due to what Kilmorph did to Odio in the past.

These are all the sort of things you need to consider when you decide whether you actually need to intervene in a blatantly obvious manner, or if simply whispering a task to a mortal leader in a dream will suffice.

 

[Babale]

Well, about the Earth mana I agree. If someone can erase it, I'd be thankful.

But as for the wood golem: He is only allowed to use it for killing the ogre. Sure, he could decide to "cheat" and use it for other stuff, but that would cause a long-term penalty in Kilmorph's relationship.

Well, if you guys still disagree, I'd be fine with someone changing it. But are you sure it's OP if using it will have consequences?

 

[Lgaard]

To Aeron: do you think you can elaborate a narrative way to replace the Tower of Arawn with the Spire of Rage? Or maybe think of any other location which would not be like in front of New Grigoria? I may do the changes on the map, when I do my intervention at the end of the round.
Right now I feel the area south of Grigori a little too crowded.

Also, "snake pillar" will not work. Hell terrein goes back to 'normal' when AC is low. It will change into 'rice' in few turns. Believe me a rice field signed "Spire of Rage" looks silly.

How do you feel about that?

 

[Lgaard]

Well, if you guys still disagree, I'd be fine with someone changing it. But are you sure it's OP if using it will have consequences?

It might be OP, might be not, It's argueable. The point here is: when you give a task together with all tools needed to complete the task, it turns out to be "go there" -> "kill 'em" -> "ask for salary". Much better if he has to work out his own way, and his own means to handle the problem. I would delete the golem, if you dont mind.

 

[Babale]

OK, you convinced me. Go ahead and delete the golem.

But please replace it with a dwarven warrior, also renamed "Kilmorph's Servent". Basically, Kilmorph is giving him a taste of her power, and showing him what rewards she can give if he serves her. Since it's a warrior, it's not OP, right?

Replace the Earth mana, too. But the gems are OK?

 

[Bootsiuv]

Gems are probably ok, although he hasn't done much to earn Kilmorphs favor.

Your enthusiasm is wonderful, but don't forget subtlety. You'll have much time to give out units and resources, should Gerran please you.

I was going to say something about the earth mana and wood golem myself, but was busy designing my quest.

@Lgaard

I agree about changing things after Gerran had found them, but I missed the first intervention. I hope my "forest of Renewal" idea is acceptable, and the fact that it wasn't there in the beginning can be overlooked.

Also, consider naming some things around the grigori starting area, such as rivers, seas, mountain ranges etc. It will help with the story telling, and gives a much more Tolkienesque feel to our little world.

 

[Babale]

Sorry about being overenthusiastic. I think I cured that.

A warrior isn't too overpowered, right? And the gems are a sort of, "check this out. See this? I can give ten times as much goods, if you serve me" kinda thing.

 

[Bootsiuv]

No need to apologize at all friend. I like your ideas. Keep em coming.

Remember, if your not sure if what your adding is OP, just come here and ask. We're here to help each other enjoy the game to the fullest, and create an interesting world for Gerran to explore.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Sorry about being overenthusiastic. I think I cured that.

A warrior isn't too overpowered, right? And the gems are a sort of, "check this out. See this? I can give ten times as much goods, if you serve me" kinda thing.

Unfortunately we don't have a third, non-hostile entity(I would add the warrior as that, then if he accepts the quest change it so he controls the warrior). For now, I would remove the warrior as well, though you can add it in later if/when Gerran asks for help. After all, who knows if he will even do the quest the way you plan? Look at how the Imp thing turned out... and the bear thing...

 

[Babale]

Unfortunately we don't have a third, non-hostile entity(I would add the warrior as that, then if he accepts the quest change it so he controls the warrior). For now, I would remove the warrior as well, though you can add it in later if/when Gerran asks for help. After all, who knows if he will even do the quest the way you plan? Look at how the Imp thing turned out... and the bear thing...

Well, alright. I guess we can set him as a held barbarian dwarf.

 

[Lgaard]

[...]We're here to help each other enjoy the game to the fullest, and create an interesting world for Gerran to explore.

You hit the point here. Exactely, to create interesting world for him to explore. Let have it vivid, changing, living world. But let him explore it. Which means, do not give him each and every internetion straight away. Let him go out and explore.

 

[Babale]

Hm... True. I think from now on, rather than revealing a tile, we should tell him the way and let him find it.