Heroes

[EldrinFal]

Could also make the hero promotions things that effect more than just that one unit (might need some code support, but we can arrange that). Examples:

Mountain leader - this promotion already exists and allows the uni to lead entire stacks through mountains (before montaineering)

The healer line of promotions already effect the entire stack

As a generic system how about this (obviously needs code support but likely not too hard, except maybe to get the AI to use it well):

We introduce a new promotion line called(say) 'inspire', the definition of which references another (normal) promotion. Take 'first strikes' for example. The 'inspire' variation would manifest as 'inspire: first strikes' and its effect is to DYNAMICALLY apply the referenced normal promotion to the entire stack for so long as they remain stacked. This way we don't have to make a ton of new things up - we just implement the 'inspire' mechanism and everything else drops out automatically. Inspire line promotions would only be avaialble to heroes.

How do you decide which other effect to span across the stack? It sounds like you mean there is just 1 Inspire Promotion, but it takes the bonus of another promotion on the fly according to... other promotions the HERO has? Or another unit in the stack?

 

[AIAndy]

Could also make the hero promotions things that effect more than just that one unit (might need some code support, but we can arrange that). Examples:

Mountain leader - this promotion already exists and allows the uni to lead entire stacks through mountains (before montaineering)

The healer line of promotions already effect the entire stack

As a generic system how about this (obviously needs code support but likely not too hard, except maybe to get the AI to use it well):

We introduce a new promotion line called(say) 'inspire', the definition of which references another (normal) promotion. Take 'first strikes' for example. The 'inspire' variation would manifest as 'inspire: first strikes' and its effect is to DYNAMICALLY apply the referenced normal promotion to the entire stack for so long as they remain stacked. This way we don't have to make a ton of new things up - we just implement the 'inspire' mechanism and everything else drops out automatically. Inspire line promotions would only be avaialble to heroes.

The FfH2 modmod Master of Mana has the mechanic of auras which applies a kind of promotion dynamically to units in a certain range of the unit with the aura but also has a maximum of targets (that can be increased with promotions).

Also heroes in that mod have the second chance promotion, which allows them to cheat death once in a while. The idea is that that way you dare attack with a hero more freely.

 

[Koshling]

How do you decide which other effect to span across the stack? It sounds like you mean there is just 1 Inspire Promotion, but it takes the bonus of another promotion on the fly according to... other promotions the HERO has? Or another unit in the stack?

No, I meant one mechanic, which allows us to define a new hero-promotion corresponding to each non-hero promotion (if we wish to - the choice remains ours so we casn define only those we think are balanced). Definition would look like this (approx):

<PromotionInfo>
    <Type>PROMOTION_INSPIRE_FIRSTSTRIKES</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_INSPIRE_FIRSTSTRIKES</Description>
    <InspirePromotion>PROMOTION_FIRST_STRIKES</InspirePromotion>
</PromotionInfo>

So, as you can see it becomes trivial to define the inspire variant (which is then usable like any other promotion, though we'd only give it to heores), in terms of any existing one. Heroes could then earn one or more inspire promotions and so pass benefits on to stacks, and thus remain relevant forever.

 

[EldrinFal]

No, I meant one mechanic, which allows us to define a new hero-promotion corresponding to each non-hero promotion (if we wish to - the choice remains ours so we casn define only those we think are balanced). Definition would look like this (approx):

<PromotionInfo>
    <Type>PROMOTION_INSPIRE_FIRSTSTRIKES</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_INSPIRE_FIRSTSTRIKES</Description>
    <InspirePromotion>PROMOTION_FIRST_STRIKES</InspirePromotion>
</PromotionInfo>

So, as you can see it becomes trivial to define the inspire variant (which is then usable like any other promotion, though we'd only give it to heores), in terms of any existing one. Heroes could then earn one or more inspire promotions and so pass benefits on to stacks, and thus remain relevant forever.

Thank you. That cleared it up for me. That could work. And I like the wording since some Heroes aren't necessary "leaders" though they can INSPIRE.

I would still think some kind of visual upgrade is necessary though as a guy driving a chariot might look odd leading a unit of tanks

 

[Hydromancerx]

Here is an important part of a PM between SO and I about heroes that I think should be discussed here ...

Already found it and downloading now. Apparently I have seen this picture before. I really don't like the promotions they have in that picture. I would definitely want to either has us make new ones or at least change the icon/buttons.

Heroes: The biggest feature of WoL. Each civilization has two unique heroes, a military hero (like Joan of Arc or Thuthmose III) and a national hero (like Thomas Jefferson or Lord Nelson). Military heroes are super-powered units that can change the course of a war; national heroes, though a little less powerful, can build an Achievement that can give a civilization powerful bonuses – such as slightly increased culture or science in all cities – in the long-run.

Heroes also receive special promotions that no other unit can – retinue. Reminiscent of the retinue in the total war series, these are people like spouses, adventurers, and war veterans that give your heroes huge bonuses. However, heroes must be used wisely, as they will automatically die after 25 turns (this is done for mainly balancing issues, but it also presents a strategic challenge to players).

This reminds me of Empire Earth where they had Hero units. A Warrior or a Strategist. For example ...

Copper Age = Gilgamesh (W), Sargon of Akkad (S)
Industrial Age = Napoleon (W), Otto von Bismarck (S)

You gt the idea. They had like 12 of each and apparently they were from all sorts of cultures. In short it would be nice to have Military Heroes and Strategists.

In EE the Warrior boosted units in its "aura" much like a field commander in C2C. The Strategist on the other had a Battle Cry and could not only boost friendly troops but demoralize enemy ones. I am not sure how that could be applied to C2C but it would be interesting to have some sort of feature that made enemy troops less effective from the a Strategist Hero.

 

[AIAndy]

In EE the Warrior boosted units in its "aura" much like a field commander in C2C. The Strategist on the other had a Battle Cry and could not only boost friendly troops but demoralize enemy ones. I am not sure how that could be applied to C2C but it would be interesting to have some sort of feature that made enemy troops less effective from the a Strategist Hero.

That is something that the aura mechanic in Master of Mana can do as it can apply promotions and stat changes both on friendly and hostile units in the aura range.
So a hostile aura could apply a "Weak" debuff/promotion to units in a certain aura range around the hero.

 

[Koshling]

That is something that the aura mechanic in Master of Mana can do as it can apply promotions and stat changes both on friendly and hostile units in the aura range.
So a hostile aura could apply a "Weak" debuff/promotion to units in a certain aura range around the hero.

Continuing my own thoughts about the inspire line, you could also have an 'inhibit' line that operated on opposing forces when they are engaged in battle with the hero's stack. Would specify like the inspire line but the effect would be to REMOVE the promotion (if present) from the enemy units for the attack in question.

 

[strategyonly]

I think "in essence" that all of you are really talking the same thing, just a few words differentiating a bit.

But the FfH2 system sounds what i was looking for, and the Inspire / inhibit system, are very close to what "sounds" great, but how to implement it, is a different story

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think "in essence" that all of you are really talking the same thing, just a few words differentiating a bit.

But the FfH2 system sounds what i was looking for, and the Inspire / inhibit system, are very close to what "sounds" great, but how to implement it, is a different story

I agree. That's why I posted the PM since it was along the same lines of Heroic units influencing other units.

 

[Koshling]

I agree. That's why I posted the PM since it was along the same lines of Heroic units influencing other units.

Whatever mechanism we went for would require DLL changes to support it . At least for the inspire/inhibit system I think those are pretty easy (and probably not that hard for a more extensive aura system). In both cases the hard poart will be getting he AI to make sense of it.

 

[strategyonly]

Whatever mechanism we went for would require DLL changes to support it . At least for the inspire/inhibit system I think those are pretty easy (and probably not that hard for a more extensive aura system). In both cases the hard part will be getting he AI to make sense of it.

And you forgot, the MOST important part.

 

[EldrinFal]

To take this a step further, if that code is implemented, couldn't we put such a thing on a Building? So instead of a Monument (as a random example) simply producing , it also Inspires troops stationed (possibly surrounding) the city? Or we have a World Wonder that grants some Inspiring effect to all units within cultural borders?

Or some propaganda building that makes workers around the city work harder?

(Idea floodgates have been opened!)

Or radio towers built like forts that grant a Movement promotion to certain robots/vehicles in the area to create remotely operated units?

 

[Koshling]

To take this a step further, if that code is implemented, couldn't we put such a thing on a Building? So instead of a Monument (as a random example) simply producing , it also Inspires troops stationed (possibly surrounding) the city? Or we have a World Wonder that grants some Inspiring effect to all units within cultural borders?

Or some propaganda building that makes workers around the city work harder?

(Idea floodgates have been opened!)

Or radio towers built like forts that grant a Movement promotion to certain robots/vehicles in the area to create remotely operated units?

Yes we could. Interesting ;-) Danger is we'd wind up making cities almost impossible to conquer though if we weer not careful (at least without spy actions to destroy the buildings in question).

 

[EldrinFal]

Yes we could. Interesting ;-) Danger is we'd wind up making cities almost impossible to conquer though if we weer not careful (at least without spy actions to destroy the buildings in question).

Certainly we'd want to keep the bonus low if it applied to raw City Defense.

I'm also unsure how much of an AI programming nightmare it would be for you to incorporate remote-operated units. I had imagined units that needed to stay within the range of those towers, but then wondered how the AI could handle that.

 

[Hankc]

Well, you could leash the units to the improvements. Rise from Erebus (FfH modmod) uses leashed units to guard barbarian spawn points. I'm sure that a similar system could work for something like that.

Essentialy one (or more) units spawn at the improvement is built. They can move anywhere inside their range, but not outside it. You wouldn't have to teach the AI to keep the units inside the range since they can't leave, you might have to teach the AI to place someyhing like this intelligently.

 

[EldrinFal]

Well, you could leash the units to the improvements. Rise from Erebus (FfH modmod) uses leashed units to guard barbarian spawn points. I'm sure that a similar system could work for something like that.

Essentialy one (or more) units spawn at the improvement is built. They can move anywhere inside their range, but not outside it. You wouldn't have to teach the AI to keep the units inside the range since they can't leave, you might have to teach the AI to place someyhing like this intelligently.

"Leashed" units is something I'd like to see related to animals and dens, or guards and forts. Although I'm tempted to say that is a unit command already (move a unit to a tile then guard it and the surrounding area-- I could be wrong though!_

But the remote vehicles I had in mind could have a larger operational range if you built the "towers" at enough locations. The unit could move normally through any terrain that was covered in the range of one of those towers, but if it moved out of range, or if a tower was lost/destroyed, it would be dead in the water. I suppose then it wouldn't just be a Movement promotion, but an Attack one as well. So if it's inoperable, it would just be a sitting duck for an enemy or brigand/spy type unit to destroy.

 

[strategyonly]

Well, you could leash the units to the improvements. Rise from Erebus (FfH modmod) uses leashed units to guard barbarian spawn points. I'm sure that a similar system could work for something like that.

Essentially one (or more) units spawn at the improvement is built. They can move anywhere inside their range, but not outside it. You wouldn't have to teach the AI to keep the units inside the range since they can't leave, you might have to teach the AI to place something like this intelligently.

HUH, interesting idea

 

[Arian]

Never seen that before, where did you get that from? And thats why i am so glad Koshling is with us, for the AI part (hint hint). Plus i have gotten the approval of all the other modders authors to use their stuff also.

Take a look here. You did reply in this thread so you must have seen it before

 

[strategyonly]

Take a look here. You did reply in this thread so you must have seen it before

WOOOW, no i haven't seen it before, thats exactly what i was planning on doing, just plain WOW

ahem, is there anyway "YOU" could help "us" out doing this? Well since You are the author

One thing i did notice, is that it uses a CEventManager.py, and this mod hates anything added to it, so it has to be CONVERTED to BUG. Otherwise i'd have over 30 more modcomps added already.

 

[Arian]

WOOOW, no i haven't seen it before, thats exactly what i was planning on doing, just plain WOW

Must have been your alter ego then

ahem, is there anyway "YOU" could help "us" out doing this? Well since You are the author

It's in my mod which maybe someday I'll publish so you can grab all stuff OR I could just post the stuff here so the C2C-team can merge all the stuff. I remember it took me 2 to 3 weeks collecting, adding and testing this. I don't wanna do this all over again

One thing i did notice, is that it uses a CEventManager.py, and this mod hates anything added to it, so it has to be CONVERTED to BUG.

My mod runs under BUG 4.2 without any problems so it shouldn't be a problem for C2C either