Heroes

[ori]

if its supposed to be triggered as an event: if there is a python function (or better yet an xml tag) that returns which milestone is currently achieved, its easy to trigger it:

create a trigger for each milestone that is supposed to trigger a GA, set it to active 100%, iweight -1, non recurring, non global and it will trigger immediately upon reaching the milestone and only once per player (team? <- not sure).

 

[Vokarya]

I have another question about heroes. Did you consider modifying their combat strength for C2C? Especially in the Industrial and Modern eras, heroes look really underpowered compared to the units they are going up against on the battlefield. For example, Industrial-era heroes are strength 30-32, but they're going up against strength-34 Infantry and strength-60 Tanks.

 

[strategyonly]

I have another question about heroes. Did you consider modifying their combat strength for C2C? Especially in the Industrial and Modern eras, heroes look really underpowered compared to the units they are going up against on the battlefield. For example, Industrial-era heroes are strength 30-32, but they're going up against strength-34 Infantry and strength-60 Tanks.

Good info thx.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I was thinking that since heroes cannot upgrade and they eventually become too weak to fight that perhaps they should ALL be able to be made into some sort of heroic monument. Of course only 1 per city built it would give them a use if they manage to live past their era. Not sure what the benefit should be but it would be minimal compared to the heroic wonders.

 

[Vokarya]

I did some benchmarking of the Hero units, and here's my thoughts on the actual numbers.

Classical Era benchmarks:
Swordsman (6 in World of Legends, 7 for Light Swords in C2C)
War Elephant (8 in WoL, 12 in C2C)

Classical Heroes are Strength 10, so they are nearly 2-to-1 over Swordsmen and +25% over War Elephants. I would give the Classical Heroes +5 Strength. Heroes that require only Ancient Techs don't need a boost, since they only have to go up against Archers and Axemen.

Medieval Era benchmarks:
Maceman (8 in WoL, 10 in C2C)
Knight (10 in WoL, 11 in C2C)

Medieval Heroes average Strength 15, so this is still pretty close. I would give them only +2 Strength.

Renaissance Era benchmarks:
Musketman (9 in WoL, 20 in C2C)
Cuirassier (12 in WoL, 21 in C2C)

This is where the power curve really starts to steepen. Renaissance Heroes are 18 Strength, so they were 2-to-1 over Muskets and 3-to-2 over Cuirassiers. In C2C, they are already overshadowed. I would raise them to an average of 35, or giving all the Renaissance Heroes +17 Strength.

Industrial Era benchmarks:
Infantry (20 in WoL, 34 in C2C)
Tank (28 in WoL, 60 in C2C)

Industrial Heroes have it even worse than Renaissance Heroes. I think they need at least +30 Strength, which makes them equal to a Tank unit. Industrial Heroes in World of Legends were only slightly stronger than a Tank.

Modern Era benchmarks:
Modern Infantry (25 in WoL, 50 in C2C)
Modern Armor (50 in WoL, 105 in C2C)

The handful of Modern Heroes (Patton, Rommel, Yamamoto, Mandela) are totally overshadowed now. I think they need at least +40 Strength, which boosts them into the 80's.

The hammer costs for these heroes would have to be increased as well. There are a couple of heroes that don't fit the pattern (Arpad is underpriced, Joan of Arc is very overpriced), and I noticed that the bigger units in C2C have their costs really increased, so the heroes need to go up too. I think a good guess would be:
Classical -- 150 hammers
Medieval -- 300 hammers
Renaissance -- 450 hammers
Industrial -- 600 hammers
Modern -- 750 hammers

 

[Vokarya]

I was thinking that since heroes cannot upgrade and they eventually become too weak to fight that perhaps they should ALL be able to be made into some sort of heroic monument. Of course only 1 per city built it would give them a use if they manage to live past their era. Not sure what the benefit should be but it would be minimal compared to the heroic wonders.

One use I found for a hero that is overshadowed strength-wise is to use them as a backup healer. Give them Bard and Priest and they can heal alongside a medic, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[strategyonly]

I was thinking that since heroes cannot upgrade and they eventually become too weak to fight that perhaps they should ALL be able to be made into some sort of heroic monument. Of course only 1 per city built it would give them a use if they manage to live past their era. Not sure what the benefit should be but it would be minimal compared to the heroic wonders.

I was just thinking also, maybe a Leader Promotion to lead the troops also?? ie:

			<LeaderPromotion>PROMOTION_LEADER</LeaderPromotion>
			<iLeaderExperience>30</iLeaderExperience>
			<iCommandRange>1</iCommandRange>
			<iControlPoints>5</iControlPoints>
			<bGreatGeneral>1</bGreatGeneral>

something like above or would that be to much

 

[Hydromancerx]

Won't that lessen the important of field generals and warlords?

Maybe just have a monument that gives some unit XP and maybe lessees War Wariness (and some culture too). Such as ...

Heroic Monument [Only Built By Heroes]
Req Tech: Ritualism

• +5
• +1
• -25% War Wariness
• +1 XP for all types of units.

What do you think?

 

[strategyonly]

Won't that lessen the important of field generals and warlords?

Maybe just have a monument that gives some unit XP and maybe lessees War Wariness (and some culture too). Such as ...

Heroic Monument [Only Build By Heroes]

• +5
• +1
• -25% War Wariness
• +1 XP for all types of units.

What do you think?

Nice thinking i really like this idea, DH what say you? Also was thinking, what if they dont use Great Commanders in the Options area?

Vokarya, i was just looking over the Elite Heroes and they all look fine to me, are you talking about National Heroes by any chance? I was looking at Patton and he was around 40ish and any other unit at that time was only a 30ish?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I don't use great commanders, but I like the idea of the Heroic Monument. Perhaps with a small 5% chance fr great general emergance for battles on your own soil?

 

[Vokarya]

Nice thinking i really like this idea, DH what say you? Also was thinking, what if they dont use Great Commanders in the Options area?

Vokarya, i was just looking over the Elite Heroes and they all look fine to me, are you talking about National Heroes by any chance? I was looking at Patton and he was around 40ish and any other unit at that time was only a 30ish?

That's exactly what I'm referring to--the National Heroes, the one-of-a-kind units. In the World of Legends mod, at least the way I was playing it, the National Heroes are kings of the battlefield for an era and then go obsolete. That's when you get your one Achievement out of the National Hero that can build them. Each civ only gets two in WoL, one that is pure military and one that can get an Achievement.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

That's exactly what I'm referring to--the National Heroes, the one-of-a-kind units. In the World of Legends mod, at least the way I was playing it, the National Heroes are kings of the battlefield for an era and then go obsolete. That's when you get your one Achievement out of the National Hero that can build them. Each civ only gets two in WoL, one that is pure military and one that can get an Achievement.

Part of the problem in C2C, is that you may not get to build the classic era heroes until quite late because you don't get the necessary culture. This makes the purely military hero a bit of a waste of space.

 

[strategyonly]

Part of the problem in C2C, is that you may not get to build the classic era heroes until quite late because you don't get the necessary culture. This makes the purely military hero a bit of a waste of space.

Actually that is a GREAT point, and i believe what is happening. I have like ten heroes just sitting around because of this in my game. Hmm what to do?
I am wondering if an upgrade to something is due here? Or if the above suggested post i made above is worth doing, making them Great Commander available also?

Or do like i did in my Japanese Mod, make another exactly same unit same name etc, only different size unit and make that an upgrade PLUS more str? In my Japanese Mod i had THREE units exactly the same, ie Tokugawa, each one different in size then, after that the third one would upgrade to a regular unit, it would actually be like the old UU's would have been.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Actually that is a GREAT point, and i believe what is happening. I have like ten heroes just sitting around because of this in my game. Hmm what to do?
I am wondering if an upgrade to something is due here? Or if the above suggested post i made above is worth doing, making them Great Commander available also?

Or do like i did in my Japanese Mod, make another exactly same unit same name etc, only different size unit and make that an upgrade PLUS more str? In my Japanese Mod i had THREE units exactly the same, ie Tokugawa, each one different in size then, after that the third one would upgrade to a regular unit, it would actually be like the old UU's would have been.

So does each culture have two heroes per traditional era? If so that is potentially a lot of heroes you can get. In which case I would force obsolete the old ones so that you can't build them after there era. Mine you that would hamper me since I don't get the cultures until the middle ages. Earlier than that and I am only fighting barbarians.

 

[strategyonly]

So does each culture have two heroes per traditional era? If so that is potentially a lot of heroes you can get. In which case I would force obsolete the old ones so that you can't build them after there era. Mine you that would hamper me since I don't get the cultures until the middle ages. Earlier than that and I am only fighting barbarians.

Exactly, i was just thinking of that when i had to go to the "john." Plus each one, some of the achievements would be gone, or something in that area/category. Because you would be getting different promotions now. So you would have to decide when to use the achievement(s) or forget about them, and just use it as a regular unit.

Maybe i am way off base here

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well in one of the other mods that uses heroes don't they like instantly die within X number of turns? And if you don't use them quickly they will disappear?

Overall I am kind of disappointed with the heroes. They are not as useful as a field general, if you use them for golden ages they make way too many. Not all cultures have a hero have a hero and those that do have way too many (I am looking at you Greece).

Personally I think maybe all civs should get a generic hero. One that works like the other heroes. Maybe even 1 hero per era (or every other era) or something. I know its nice to have all these specific units for the heroes but perhaps they should be saved to be used as Elite Units for other cultures that do not have units yet.

For example instead of say Spartacus as a hero we introduce a new Gladiator national unit that requires the Arena.

EDIT: Another thing that gets me is the heroes are too easy to get. They are as easy to get as an Elite unit. It may be better if heroes only come about through random events or something. Something to make extremely rare and thus more valuable.

 

[strategyonly]

Well in one of the other mods that uses heroes don't they like instantly die within X number of turns? And if you don't use them quickly they will disappear?

Overall I am kind of disappointed with the heroes. They are not as useful as a field general, if you use them for golden ages they make way too many. Not all cultures have a hero have a hero and those that do have way too many (I am looking at you Greece).

Personally I think maybe all civs should get a generic hero. One that works like the other heroes. Maybe even 1 hero per era (or every other era) or something. I know its nice to have all these specific units for the heroes but perhaps they should be saved to be used as Elite Units for other cultures that do not have units yet.

For example instead of say Spartacus as a hero we introduce a new Gladiator national unit that requires the Arena.

EDIT: Another thing that gets me is the heroes are too easy to get. They are as easy to get as an Elite unit. It may be better if heroes only come about through random events or something. Something to make extremely rare and thus more valuable.

It was DH was saying, the original Heroes were set with UU in mind, not "our" cultural embassies, thats why i made this thread, because i know it needs alot of "Fine Tuning."

 

[Hydromancerx]

@strategyonly

Would you you be opposed to having a generic hero unit available to all civs but not specific heroes with names and special graphics?

Because I had some ideas to make heroes less linked to culture and more linked to traits. For instance a deceptive leader would get a Rogue-like hero or a seafaring leader would get a special boat hero.

This would make them more like the Unique Units except they would be based on a civs leader traits and not on the civ they picked.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The time limit on their use I found very annoying. By the time I moved the war hero to the front lines he died.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Here are some ideas for "Trait Heroes"

Aggressive (Req Warfare) = Hero Warrior
Agricultural (Req Agriculture) = Hero Farmer
Charismatic (Req Drama) = Hero Entertainer
Deceiver (Req Alphabet) = Hero Spy
Expansive (Req City Planning) = Hero ?
Financial (Req Trade) = Hero Merchant
Humanitarian (Raq Humanism) = Hero Doctor
Imperialistic (Req Nationalism) = Hero ?
Industrious (Req Industrialism) = Hero Tycoon
Nomad (Req Nomadic Lifestyle) = Hero Explorer
Organized (Req Code of Laws) = Hero Judge
Philosophical (Req Philosophy) = Hero Philosopher
Protective = (Req Masonry) = Hero Engineer
Scientific (Req Scientific Method) = Hero Scientist
Seafaring (Req Sailing) = Hero Sailor
Spiritual (Req Mysticism) = Hero Priest

Note based on this only a few would be used for combat while the other would mainly be used like Great People.

Hmm maybe this was not the best idea. I would like to have the heroes actually be in combat. I will have to think more on this.