Hiawatha haters unite

[Krajzen]

He's like the opposite of the Native Americans IRL, he takes land from white people instead of losing it to them.

I found it ridiculous that the two most land - grabbing civs in C5 are Iroquis and Shoshone, Native American tribes

Dear fellow Hiawatha Haters, I have a story which will cheer you up:

In my Venice archipelago game, Hiawatha was - guess what! - performing infinite city spam. He had something like ~28 cities (the other most expanding civ had like two times less cities?...), he had cities in the middle of other AI empires, two cities close to my Venice, cities in one tile islands, cities in the flat desert and cities in the snow. All of that while being usual sociopathic Hiawatha - "Hi my friend, I take whatever I want and I don't care about your land - oh my God, why are you so angry? You warmongering menace to the world!"

And somewhere in the modern era, it everything went to hell. Basically, my Freedom ideology created revolutionary wave in his empire, and in the meantime all nations of the world attacked him - me, Indonesia, Japan, Babylon, Aztecs, Netherlands, Korea, Germany... It was beautiful. Giant Iroquis empire was massacred and during ąpproximately 20 turns he lost 80% of his cities, including capital. After that Great Collapse, he was world's scapegoat.

Wonderful.

 

[bcaiko]

Nope. Too absurdly hot, can't hate him.

 

[Mustakrakish]

In my Venice archipelago game, Hiawatha was - guess what! - performing infinite city spam. He had something like ~28 cities (the other most expanding civ had like two times less cities?...), he had cities in the middle of other AI empires, two cities close to my Venice, cities in one tile islands, cities in the flat desert and cities in the snow. All of that while being usual sociopathic Hiawatha - "Hi my friend, I take whatever I want and I don't care about your land - oh my God, why are you so angry? You warmongering menace to the world!"

And somewhere in the modern era, it everything went to hell. Basically, my Freedom ideology created revolutionary wave in his empire, and in the meantime all nations of the world attacked him - me, Indonesia, Japan, Babylon, Aztecs, Netherlands, Korea, Germany... It was beautiful. Giant Iroquis empire was massacred and during ąpproximately 20 turns he lost 80% of his cities, including capital. After that Great Collapse, he was world's scapegoat.

Wonderful.

That's a beautiful story, cheers.

 

[George Abitbol]

Epic story! Sounds like the fall of the Soviet Union.

 

[thelesserevil]

Nope. Too absurdly hot, can't hate him.

I feel extremely shallow, but I can't hate him for this reason either. Same with Kamehameha, Alexander and Pacal.

...I'm such a tramp. Expand away, Hiawatha!

 

[Walter R]

It isn't that I hate him; it's just that I like all the current and any future civs a lot more. Except Alex.

 

[Enonwnn]

I used to hate Hiawatha being anywhere in my games, whether it being directly next to me, or on another continent.

However, since BNW, I've been playing much taller than previously, therefore I'm usually able to get all the cities I want to build up and away before Hiawatha can get anywhere near me.

And this is where the advantage comes in. Hiawatha rarely goes for religion, and if he does happen to found one, he rarely spreads it. This makes my Printing Press-Tithe religion a monster as I would get my missionaries into his territory as soon as humanly possible. Couple this with Evangelism (?The reformation belief where your missionaries corrode opposing religions) and your religion will be totally dominant no matter who you're up against.

He's also very peaceful towards me, so I very rarely have to put up with his Mohawks.

This said... the last game I saw him (I was Harald), he only managed to get up 3 cities in the first 150 turns, even though there were swathes on free land between him and myself, and also north of him. He ended up taking a few Austrian cities by force/peace deals in mid-late game, but aside from this, no other cities were settled. Has there been any recent updates to his behaviour? (This happened last week).

 

[bcaiko]

...I'm such a tramp. Expand away, Hiawatha!

And thus the birth of Civ-slash!

 

[Guandao]

Ugh, hate this guy.
On large maps that I play (Asia, Mediterranean, etc), he expands everywhere, even on desert which stifles growth, sure you may get a luxury resource, but your cities won't grow pass 3. His empires usually contain a number of low level population cities. On smaller maps, his expansion is halted. Plus he places his cities too close to each other (though most AI civs do that), he may found a religion (Protestantism) and attempt to spread it, In the past, he has declared war on me several times, though not so much now. Pocatello doesn't even expand as much as Hiawatha, (the Shoshone have less city names than the Iroquois though), and finally, the names of most of his cities ticks me off (Cuba?, Akron?, Montreal?), mind naming your cities in an Iroquoian language instead?

I hope the Iroquois are not in Civ6, I rather have another North American Indian civ instead (Cherokee, Seminole, Creek for examples)

 

[kaspergm]

In my recent game as Celts, Hiawatha was the perfect best-buddy. He only build like 6-7 cities, we formed a DoF and he was loyal to me all game, he performed a nice meat-shield between me an Zulu. He did provide me with one of the epic AI facepalm moments, however: He was leader of World Congress (got Forbidden Palace, obviously), and Shaka who was, well, being Shaka, had eliminated Ghandi, gobbled up most of France, and then attacked Hiawatha without too much luck. So I think Hiawatha will be smart enough to suggest a ban on Zulu, given he was hated by entire world. But no, Hiawatha gets the brilliant idea of suggesting a resource ban on Gems, which is in my territory (and we have DoF). Great. Ban passes, next vote comes up: Hiawatha suggest ban on Salt, also in my territory. Com'on Hiawatha, you can do better than this. Ban passes. Third vote, at this time Zulu have gobbled up most of Iroqouis lands, figure now he will see the light, but alas: Hiawatha suggests ban on Mongolia, who resides on the completely different site of the pangea. Aaaargh AI, you can do better than this!!!

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Why hate somebody that actually tries to win

 

[GoStu]

Why hate somebody that actually tries to win

I don't hate him because he tries to win. I hate him because he wins for all the wrong reasons. They're an average-at-best civ from okay UA, okay UU, and sometimes dubious UB. It's that he manages to use the ai advantages better than most and city-spams to the point of total obnoxiousness. He founds awful cities that don't make sense.

He succeeds despite horrible idiocy. He's the overpromoted idiot at the workplace nobody likes.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Hi, I'm Hiawatha, and your land is now my land!

He's like the opposite of the Native Americans IRL, he takes land from white people instead of losing it to them.

Just FYI, the Iroquois were highly imperial and were generally superior fighters to the white invaders. If they were as united in real life as they are in Civ and smallpox didn't happen there'd be a large chunk of land labeled "The Iroquois Confederacy" on modern maps.

I hope the Iroquois are not in Civ6, I rather have another North American Indian civ instead (Cherokee, Seminole, Creek for examples)

Nah man, I love the Iroquois. I more hope that the devs take history into account more and make the Mohawk Warrior a musket unit next time around.

I really love Hiawatha as an opponent and an ally. He's one of the few leaders that really feels like he's playing the game and doesn't just do things to be disruptive (read: Monty). Alex and Catherine are really good at this too.

 

[GoStu]

I really love Hiawatha as an opponent and an ally. He's one of the few leaders that really feels like he's playing the game and doesn't just do things to be disruptive (read: Monty). Alex and Catherine are really good at this too.

The thing that peeves me about Hiawatha that I'll tolerate from Catherine and Alex is that Cathy and Alex are each using their Uniques somehow to achieve their victories. Alex is always a huge threat in the diplomacy game, and Catherine does a good job gobbling up land.

I seriously cannot point to what in the Iroquois civ makes them so damned obnoxious. I've played them a couple times out of curiosity and still never really figured out what makes them good in the AI's hands other than decent AI flavoring.

 

[kb27787]

I don't hate him... he's pretty loyal and friendly and won't DoW you without reason...
He's certainly far from the worst neighbor to have (Shaka and Ashur share that honor)

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I don't hate him because he tries to win. I hate him because he wins for all the wrong reasons. They're an average-at-best civ from okay UA, okay UU, and sometimes dubious UB. It's that he manages to use the ai advantages better than most and city-spams to the point of total obnoxiousness. He founds awful cities that don't make sense.

He succeeds despite horrible idiocy. He's the overpromoted idiot at the workplace nobody likes.

Actually the UB is probably the best thing about the Civ, in some chases its probably the best UB of them all.

The Iroquise is a pretty good fast expansion Civ, the UA allows both easier Connections and better defense, both usefull for fast expansions.

Both Uniques are in the bottom of the Tech tree, which is what you want to Tech if you expand fast and both helps.

 

[Arachnofiend]

The Longhouse can potentially be fewer hammers than a regular workshop because it drops the percentage boost. And considering the AI's love for chopping down everything...

 

[iconocast]

in gnk and vanilla i totaly agree with the op but now...oh god now its Shoshone has take the number 1 spot

 

[Helmling]

I don't hate him... he's pretty loyal and friendly and won't DoW you without reason...
He's certainly far from the worst neighbor to have (Shaka and Ashur share that honor)

I'd never had Ashur as a neighbor until my last game--my last aborted game!

Sucker's mean. He ran his economy into the ground to build a huge army and then bum rushed me.

I'm sad now.

 

[GoStu]

Actually the UB is probably the best thing about the Civ, in some chases its probably the best UB of them all.

The Iroquise is a pretty good fast expansion Civ, the UA allows both easier Connections and better defense, both usefull for fast expansions.

Both Uniques are in the bottom of the Tech tree, which is what you want to Tech if you expand fast and both helps.

The Longhouse can potentially be fewer hammers than a regular workshop because it drops the percentage boost. And considering the AI's love for chopping down everything...

Between the two above, I agree with Arachnofiend. The Longhouse can end up being fewer hammers than a normal workshop. There's a certain window and tech route where you can have your Lumber Mills be 4 Production 1 Food while a Mine is 3 Production though. It's not useless, but it's a LONG way from the best UB... I'd reserve that title for the Bazaar or the Ikanda, depending on playstyle.

As to the UA: it's sort of useful depending on city placement and how the forests tend to place themselves on the map. It can be nice for free City Connections, but I've had starts with Hiawatha where I was more frustrated than anything. Your units can clear the forest in your territory with ease, but all surrounding forests are still Rough to you was well.

The UU is really, really meh. It's not stronger than its contemporaries (except in forest/jungle), so it's not a monster on a rush like Immortals, Hoplites, or Jagswords can be. Not requiring Iron is a convenience at best.

in gnk and vanilla i totaly agree with the op but now...oh god now its Shoshone has take the number 1 spot

Yeah, Pocatello is obnoxious too. The sight of a Shoshone settler really has me on edge. I can't predict how that goddamn bloom is going to swallow terrain, but I know it's not gonna be cool to be next to.