Historical Argument That Was In the Wrong Forum

[Kupe Navigator]

Now we have a danger of atomic conflit because the USA, the real evil of the Earth.

???? US isn't perfect but at least its government isn't locking up people?

 

[Patine]

???? US isn't perfect but at least its government isn't locking up people?

He's embraced Neo-Manichaean thinking, like I said. And because the U.S. and other Western and non-Western allies are thus evil (possibly, I'm only guessing, tying into his wonky race theory), all who oppose this, "bloc," (it isn't really much of a unified bloc, at all) are, "good," no matter how horrible they may be. This is the vibe I'm getting.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

He's embraced Neo-Manichaean thinking, like I said. And because the U.S. and other Western and non-Western allies are thus evil (possibly, I'm only guessing, tying into his wonky race theory), all who oppose this, "bloc," (it isn't really much of a unified bloc, at all) are, "good," no matter how horrible they may be. This is the vibe I'm getting.

US is guilty of genocide and racial crimes in the past yes. BUT now days most people are ashamed of it and are trying to do better. Most people in US will not stand for racial crimes and government do not arrest people in US for protesting against government. Can Russian and Chinese people do that?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Starvation, slave labour, sexual predatory abuse, conscription into a military with horrible conditions, mandatory, "sincerity," at public events (or else), imaginative forms of capital punishment, and a dynastic cult state reminiscent of Ancient Egypt or Inca (but far wonkier and more debauched - more like Caligula) is NOT doing, "just fine," by any sane reckoning.

That is west propagand to speak bad things about North Korea, I know they starv when USSR colapse, but nowadays it isn't more the reallity of this country.
Sexual predatory in North Korea? I never heard about it, please share sources. (but I will still thinking it is just Western Propaganda).

And I'm cool with dynastic cult in North Korea, it is a Comunist Monarchy with a semi-mythical leader, it's deserve to be a Civ.

Not really. Putin is a dictator and Russia is under dictatorship. The election is notthing but a scam.

That is the mad behavior of USA, they see a democracy who isn't choice the leaders as they want and call it "not-democracy". Of course Putin was elected and it isn't with 99% as no democratic countries as North Korea, but had just ~70% of votes. The people in Russia like the dude, it's common to they say he is the best leader ever existed in Russia.
And about democratic rules, Putin can't be elected forever, that is the why between 2008-2012 the president of Russia was Dmitri Medvedev, a friend of Putin. He can choice his substitute because he still very popular in Russia.

And Somalia is doing fine. No pirates and wars going on there... no siree.
( are you insane????)

Somalia is an Anarchy, that is why is a failed state.
I'm not insane. I just don't think the Democracy is the best style of governement for every one. It can be good in some places as USA or Brazil, but it isn't good in China or Rwanda, for example.

US is guilty of genocide and racial crimes in the past yes. BUT now days most people are ashamed of it and are trying to do better. Most people in US will not stand for racial crimes and government do not arrest people in US for protesting against government. Can Russian and Chinese people do that?

Not just in the past, but in USA whole history there is something to be ashame of.
As said before, Guantanamo bay still a thing to be ashamed of, not in the past. But in the present.
The invasions of Iraque and Lybia to bring democracy is very recent and a very bad reason to do that, if theses countries are just going fine without democracy, why should the USA, the policy of the world, do something?

 

[Patine]

That is west propagand to speak bad things about North Korea, I know they starv when USSR colapse, but nowadays it isn't more the reallity of this country.
Sexual predatory in North Korea? I never heard about it, please share sources. (but I will still thinking it is just Western Propaganda).

And I'm cool with dynastic cult in North Korea, it is a Comunist Monarchy with a semi-mythical leader, it's deserve to be a Civ.


That is the mad behavior of USA, they see a democracy who isn't choice the leaders as they want and call it "not-democracy". Of course Putin was elected and it isn't with 99% as no democratic countries as North Korea, but had just ~70% of votes. The people in Russia like the dude, it's common to they say he is the best leader ever existed in Russia.
And about democratic rules, Putin can't be elected forever, that is the why between 2008-2012 the president of Russia was Dmitri Medvedev, a friend of Putin. He can choice his substitute because he still very popular in Russia.

Somalia is an Anarchy, that is why is a failed state.
I'm not insane. I just don't think the Democracy is the best style of governement for every one. It can be good in some places as USA or Brazil, but it isn't good in China or Rwanda, for example.


Not just in the past, but in USA whole history there is something to be ashame of.
As said before, Guantanamo bay still a thing to be ashamed of, not in the past. But in the present.
The invasions of Iraque and Lybia to bring democracy is very recent and a very bad reason to do that, if theses countries are just going fine without democracy, why should the USA, the policy of the world, do something?

Dismiss it all as propaganda, and carry on your Neo-Manichaean take on the International Geo-Political Divide. Your argument makes no progress, and even recedes by a bit more.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

That is west propagand to speak bad things about North Korea, I

BTW Ariang News is S.Korean News site.
You disgust me.

That is the mad behavior of USA, they see a democracy who isn't choice the leaders as they want and call it "not-democracy". Of course Putin was elected and it isn't with 99% as no democratic countries as North Korea, but had just ~70% of votes. T

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/09/russia-putin-election-fraud/500867/

As said before, Guantanamo bay still a thing to be ashamed of, not in the past. But in the present.
The invasions of Iraque and Lybia to bring democracy is very recent and a very bad reason to do that, if theses countries are just going fine without democracy, why should the USA, the policy of the world, do something?

The difference is that people can protest without being arrested. Even now Biden haters can say in public "screw Biden! Pieces of crap!" Without US police arresting him. Now can you say in China "Xi is a crap" without Chinese police arresting you?

 

[Henri Christophe]

The difference is that people can protest without being arrested. Even now Biden haters can say in public "screw Biden! Pieces of crap!" Without US police arresting him. Now can you say in China "Xi is a crap" without Chinese police arresting you?

Okay, you have a point. There is no freedom of speech in China. Because it can leave to unrest and the fall down of comunism (what anyone wants).
But despite be ilegal, there is this kind of charges in China:

But let's remember the USA is not that free also, do you remember the conquest of Capitólio? all people involved was arrested by police.
Revolutions are forbiden in all countries.

 

[Patine]

Okay, you have a point. There is no freedom of speech in China. Because it can leave to unrest and the fall down of comunism (what anyone wants).
But despite be ilegal, there is this kind of charges in China:

But let's remember the USA is not that free also, do you remember the conquest of Capitólio? all people involved was arrested by police.
Revolutions are forbiden in all countries.

Are really conflating merely speaking out against, criticizing, or lampooning a Government as ACTUALLY being the SAME as violent revolution, rebellion, insurrection, or attempted coup or putsch? Are you really?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Are really conflating merely speaking out against, criticizing, or lampooning a Government as ACTUALLY being the SAME as violent revolution, rebellion, insurrection, or attempted coup or putsch? Are you really?

What the objective of speak against Xi Jinping? Of course is it to lead to a anti-revolution moviment.
The only difference between China and USA, is the China supress it before it starts.

I don't think the censure in China is something wrong. Because want to avoid unrest as the conquer of Capitólio in USA, because if it happens in China, propably the US will aid the rebelds and bring even more unrest.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

But let's remember the USA is not that free also, do you remember the conquest of Capitólio? all people involved was arrested by police.
Revolutions are forbiden in all countries.

Peaceful protest=/= riots

What the objective of speak against Xi Jinping?

To tell Xi that what he is doing is wrong?
Also main difference is that people doing peaceful protest do NOT want Riots.
Look were ant-war protests against Vietnam War in 1960's calling for volient uprising?

 

[Patine]

What the objective of speak against Xi Jinping? Of course is it to lead to a anti-revolution moviment.
The only difference between China and USA, is the China supress it before it starts.

I don't think the censure in China is something wrong. Because want to avoid unrest as the conquer of Capitólio in USA, because if it happens in China, propably the US will aid the rebelds and bring even more unrest.

This sounds like Chinese PROPAGANDA!

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Yesterday I watched Superman Red Son and... somehow Henri here sounds like he would be zealous fan of Soviet Superman. Saying " it is wrong to resist him when he is creating utopia" even though he is doing it by stripping you of your free will.

 

[Ajidica]

Rwanda dictatorship isn't as Russia, Rwanda is just a small country that not invades other countries meanwhile Russia is the biggest country on Earth.

Uhhhh, what?
The Rwandan government has systematically ostracized, exiled, or murdered those opposed to it, and kidnapped Rwandans living abroad who are opposed to its abuses.
Seth Sendashonga (Hutu moderate who supported the RPF unity government, murdered on Kagame's orders)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Sendashonga
https://medium.com/@david.himbara_2...-he-had-sendashonga-assassinated-aeb120478879 (David Himbara is a former advisor to Kagame who was forced to flee the country)

Patrick Karegeya (long term member of RPF from its time in Uganda, murdered over a falling-out with Kagame)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Karegeya

Paul Rusesabagina (Hotel Rwanda fame)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-58604468

Any many others. Michael Wrong's book Do Not Disturb: The Story of a Political Murder and an African Regime Gone Bad is an excellent book.
For how Rwanda/RPF drove one of the greatest humanitarian catastrophes of the modern world, the Congo Wars, Gerard Prunier has Africa's World War.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Uhhhh, what?
The Rwandan government has systematically ostracized, exiled, or murdered those opposed to it, and kidnapped Rwandans living abroad who are opposed to its abuses.
Seth Sendashonga (Hutu moderate who supported the RPF unity government, murdered on Kagame's orders)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Sendashonga
https://medium.com/@david.himbara_2...-he-had-sendashonga-assassinated-aeb120478879 (David Himbara is a former advisor to Kagame who was forced to flee the country)

Patrick Karegeya (long term member of RPF from its time in Uganda, murdered over a falling-out with Kagame)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Karegeya

Paul Rusesabagina (Hotel Rwanda fame)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-58604468

Any many others. Michael Wrong's book Do Not Disturb: The Story of a Political Murder and an African Regime Gone Bad is an excellent book.
For how Rwanda/RPF drove one of the greatest humanitarian catastrophes of the modern world, the Congo Wars, Gerard Prunier has Africa's World War.

Sorry, I was wrong about Rwanda, they was envolved in the Congo wars. I forgot about this war when said Rwanda is a pacific country.

But despite that, I see Pual Kagame as a hero who ends the genocide in Rwanda. And believe if democracy backs to Rwanda there is a risk of back of Hutus in the power, and Hutus in the power can mean another genocide against the Tutsi.

 

[Ajidica]

But despite that, I see Pual Kagame as a hero who ends the genocide in Rwanda. And believe if democracy backs to Rwanda there is a risk of back of Hutus in the power, and Hutus in the power can mean another genocide against the Tutsi.

Paul Kagame is no hero, these days he doesn't even have the increasingly farcical excuse of a 'second genocide'. How is Kagame and the RPF preventing a second genocide by murdering centrist Hutu politicians who supported the RPF unity government and were long opponents of Habyarimana and the ex-FAR Interahamwe; murdering their spy chief who had been with the RPF since its earliest days in Uganda as a cadre within Museveni's NRA; and almost certainly being involved in the plot to kill Fred Rwigyema to seize power for himself* back in 1992?
And this is without going into the very controversial history of the RPF after it took Kigali and almost certainly engaged in mass killings of Hutus to ethnically cleanse certain regions.

*Unproven, but both Michaela Wrong and Gerard Prunier believe it is more likely than not.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Paul Kagame is no hero, these days he doesn't even have the increasingly farcical excuse of a 'second genocide'. How is Kagame and the RPF preventing a second genocide by murdering centrist Hutu politicians who supported the RPF unity government and were long opponents of Habyarimana and the ex-FAR Interahamwe; murdering their spy chief who had been with the RPF since its earliest days in Uganda as a cadre within Museveni's NRA; and almost certainly being involved in the plot to kill Fred Rwigyema to seize power for himself* back in 1992?
And this is without going into the very controversial history of the RPF after it took Kigali and almost certainly engaged in mass killings of Hutus to ethnically cleanse certain regions.

*Unproven, but both Michaela Wrong and Gerard Prunier believe it is more likely than not.

Forget it he thinks Kim Jung Un is a good leader.

And believe if democracy backs to Rwanda there is a risk of back of Hutus in the power, and Hutus in the power can mean another genocide against the Tutsi.

Why do you think Hutus want another genocide? Are Hutus some sort of genocide monster that only thinks about killing off Tutsi? Why not choosing Hutus leader who are not monsters?

 

[Patine]

Paul Kagame is no hero, these days he doesn't even have the increasingly farcical excuse of a 'second genocide'. How is Kagame and the RPF preventing a second genocide by murdering centrist Hutu politicians who supported the RPF unity government and were long opponents of Habyarimana and the ex-FAR Interahamwe; murdering their spy chief who had been with the RPF since its earliest days in Uganda as a cadre within Museveni's NRA; and almost certainly being involved in the plot to kill Fred Rwigyema to seize power for himself* back in 1992?
And this is without going into the very controversial history of the RPF after it took Kigali and almost certainly engaged in mass killings of Hutus to ethnically cleanse certain regions.

*Unproven, but both Michaela Wrong and Gerard Prunier believe it is more likely than not.

Given our past antagonism, I never thought I'd be agreeing wholeheartedly with a post you'd made, @Ajidica. But, here we are. But a lot has changed in a year or so...

 

[Henri Christophe]

RPF after it took Kigali and almost certainly engaged in mass killings of Hutus to ethnically cleanse certain regions.

That is a serious acusation that I never heard about, please share some source of it.
Propably Paul Kagame kill some Hutus when conquer Kigali, but a reverse genocide is too much.

Why do you think Hutus want another genocide? Are Hutus some sort of genocide monster that only thinks about killing off Tutsi? Why not choosing Hutus leader who are not monsters?

If it happens once, why don't happens twice? It is a very recent history. Propably still have hate between Tutsi and Hutu communities.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

If it happens once, why don't happens twice? It is a very recent history. Propably still have hate between Tutsi and Hutu communities

So the dictatorship isn't a true solution but a duck tape solution. if a dictatorship is removed it is chaos again.
So nothing truly was solved.

 

[Henri Christophe]

So the dictatorship isn't a true solution but a duck tape solution. if a dictatorship is removed it is chaos again.
So nothing truly was solved.

I belive while the Tutsi are in the power in Rwanda, the genocide never will happens again. But the only way the Tutsi stay in power is by no democratical means. Because Hutus are majority in the society