Historical Argument That Was In the Wrong Forum

[Ajidica]

But I really loves China. I study chinese language, I love history and philosophy of China. I believe the communism of China should be a model for all world how a country should be.

Is "communism" inherent in Chinese culture? I love Russian history and music, but that in no way requires me to have a positive view of the Russian government.
Why should modern Chinese "communism" be a model to the world? What specifically about it do you feel is impossible to be replicated in countries that maintain democratic governments, respect for human and civil rights, and aren't credibly accused of attempting to wipe out an ethnic identity?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Is "communism" inherent in Chinese culture? I love Russian history and music, but that in no way requires me to have a positive view of the Russian government.
Why should modern Chinese "communism" be a model to the world? What specifically about it do you feel is impossible to be replicated in countries that maintain democratic governments, respect for human and civil rights, and aren't credibly accused of attempting to wipe out an ethnic identity?

After almost a 100 years of comunism in China, it is kind of inherent to Chinese culture yes.
One thing in China what is impossible to be replicated in countries that maintain democratic governements is one party system.
I think China just have one party is the biggest advantage of they.It's bring less strife of power and make long run projects more feasible to be doing.

And about democratics isn't an universal value, I want to share this video:

 

[Ajidica]

After almost a 100 years of comunism in China, it is kind of inherent to Chinese culture yes.

I think the Chinese living in Taiwan would disagree, along with any number of ethnic Chinese living elsewhere.

One thing in China what is impossible to be replicated in countries that maintain democratic governements is one party system.
I think China just have one party is the biggest advantage of they.It's bring less strife of power and make long run projects more feasible to be doing.

Do they? Major development projects are no monopoly of one-party states. Nkrumah and Nyerere were heavily inspired for state economic intervention based on the economic planning and coordination shown by the United States during the Great Depression and World War 2.

And about democratics isn't a universal value, I want to share this video:

I mean this in the nicest possible sense, but I couldn't care less about what Socrates thought.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Nkrumah and Nyerere

I'm not aware who is theses guys, and why you gave they as example. Can you explain it better?

I think the Chinese living in Taiwan would disagree

That is the why a war between China and Taiwan is inevitable.

 

[Ajidica]

I'm not aware who is theses guys, and why you gave they as example. Can you explain it better?

Kwame Nkrumah? Julius Nyerere? Arusha Declaration? I'm honestly quite surprised someone who is as knowledgeable about black and African topics are unfamiliar with Nyerere or Nkrumah.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Kwame Nkrumah? Julius Nyerere? Arusha Declaration? I'm honestly quite surprised someone who is as knowledgeable about black and African topics are unfamiliar with Nyerere or Nkrumah.

I made a quick research and discover Nkrumah was the first president of Ghana and Nyere the first president of Tanzania.
Arusha Declaration is a kind of constitution of socialism to Africans.

But I need to search it to discover. Despite I'm a fan of Africans and make my profile in an Afro-centric bias, that don't mean I'm an historian expert. I'm just a regular dude of South America who like to discuss in this forum.
I'm also learning and thanks to teach me about it, I will search it better later.

 

[Plotinus]

I mean this in the nicest possible sense, but I couldn't care less about what Socrates thought.

I'm kind of professionally obliged to care about what Socrates thought, but I should point out that it's not really relevant, because what ancient Athens called "democracy" was unlike what we call "democracy" in pretty much every significant respect.

There's also something rather ironic about somebody posting the views of Socrates (and Plato, which is who is really meant here) as part of a defence of Chinese communism. Plato hated Athenian democracy principally because it executed Socrates on trumped-up charges of teaching the wrong things to young people. What do you think he'd have made of the Cultural Revolution?

 

[Henri Christophe]

There's also something rather ironic about somebody posting the views of Socrates (and Plato, which is who is really meant here) as part of a defence of Chinese communism. Plato hated Athenian democracy principally because it executed Socrates on trumped-up charges of teaching the wrong things to young people. What do you think he'd have made of the Cultural Revolution?

Despite the fact it is very anachronist to figure out the opnion of someone as Socrates about communist China.
I would argue Socrates should like communist China because don't have the bigest problem of a democracy, in his opnion, I mean. Don't everybody is allowed to give their opnion, just the members of the communist party, what is a kind of meritocraty party.

 

[Patine]

Despite the fact it is very anachronist to figure out the opnion of someone as Socrates about communist China.
I would argue Socrates should like communist China because don't have the bigest problem of a democracy, in his opnion, I mean. Don't everybody is allowed to give their opnion, just the members of the communist party, what is a kind of meritocraty party.

I think you missed (or ignored) this part:

Plato hated Athenian democracy principally because it executed Socrates on trumped-up charges of teaching the wrong things to young people. What do you think he'd have made of the Cultural Revolution?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Don't everybody is allowed to give their opnion, just the members of the communist party, what is a kind of meritocraty party.

The CCP is not a meritocracy. It is quite famous for its corruption. As of 2021 it had about 95 million members. China has a population of about 1.4 billion people. The Party has way less than 10% of of the population. It is a ruling elite.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I'm kind of professionally obliged to care about what Socrates thought, but I should point out that it's not really relevant, because what ancient Athens called "democracy" was unlike what we call "democracy" in pretty much every significant respect.

There's also something rather ironic about somebody posting the views of Socrates (and Plato, which is who is really meant here) as part of a defence of Chinese communism. Plato hated Athenian democracy principally because it executed Socrates on trumped-up charges of teaching the wrong things to young people. What do you think he'd have made of the Cultural Revolution?

Hello old friend! It is good to see that you are alive and still connected to CFC. Don't forget to check the staff forums!

 

[Henri Christophe]

The CCP is not a meritocracy. It is quite famous for its corruption. As of 2021 it had about 95 million members. China has a population of about 1.4 billion people. The Party has way less than 10% of of the population. It is a ruling elite.

I guess in the CCP they used burocracy as a method of meritocracy system, as sistematical test exames in order to avaluate each person in governement.
Xi Jinping said he over the corruption in the country. And the few number of rulers is a good thing, it is less people to corrode public coffers.

 

[Plotinus]

Hello old friend! It is good to see that you are alive and still connected to CFC. Don't forget to check the staff forums!

I've not gone anywhere, just become a little more sporadic!

I guess in the CCP they used burocracy as a method of meritocracy system, as sistematical test exames in order to avaluate each person in governement.
Xi Jinping said he over the corruption in the country. And the few number of rulers is a good thing, it is less people to corrode public coffers.

Bureaucracy doesn't instil wisdom. Quite the contrary, one might think. Plato's point (it's not Socrates', whatever that video says) is that political influence should be coupled to wisdom. That's not the same thing as the ability to pass exams. Indeed Plato would be very suspicious of any writing-based selection system since he also thought that the written word was morally suspect too. He would also be fundamentally opposed to communism as a philosophy because it is materialistic. The closest thing to a system of government today that Plato would approve of would probably be the Vatican.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Bureaucracy doesn't instil wisdom. Quite the contrary, one might think. Plato's point (it's not Socrates', whatever that video says) is that political influence should be coupled to wisdom. That's not the same thing as the ability to pass exams. Indeed Plato would be very suspicious of any writing-based selection system since he also thought that the written word was morally suspect too. He would also be fundamentally opposed to communism as a philosophy because it is materialistic. The closest thing to a system of government today that Plato would approve of would probably be the Vatican.

Despite we are running in an anachronist dispute. I should ask, why Plato would approve the Vatican?
Is an elected monarchy better than the communism?

 

[Kupe Navigator]

But I really loves China. I study chinese language, I love history and philosophy of China. I believe the communism of China should be a model for all world how a country should be.

Yeah what about cultural revolution in which CCP did cultural suicide?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Yeah what about cultural revolution in which CCP did cultural suicide?

Maybe the Cultural Revolution was an error under Mao Zedong regime, but communism in China had the power to reinvented it self and never again will repeat this kind of error. Now a days they change a lot. Now they look to the old China as a comunist aspiration, once I hear Xi Jinping saying the China always was comunist, because comunism is very linked in base ideas of chineses philosofers as Lao Tsé and Confucius.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Maybe the Cultural Revolution was an error under Mao Zedong regime, but communism in China had the power to reinvented it self and never again will repeat this kind of error.

Yeah right you mean like censorship?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Yeah right you mean like censorship?

We already spoke about censorship. Every place need some kind of censorship even this forum.

 

[Patine]

once I hear Xi Jinping saying the China always was comunist, because comunism is very linked in base ideas of chineses philosofers as Lao Tsé and Confucius.

That's called revisionist nationalist propaganda. The same practice where Ayn Rand's ideological promoters in the U.S. say her views were exactly the same as Thomas Jefferson's, and the only allowable legal conduct by the U.S. Constitution. Not to taken at face value, or with less than a whole mine of salt, regardless of the nation, government, or ideology in question.

 

[Patine]

We already spoke about censorship. Every place need some kind of censorship even this forum.

There are degree. BIG degrees.