Historical Argument That Was In the Wrong Forum

[Kupe Navigator]

why China Mongolia can be considered Mongolia with Kublai Khan?

because it was ruled directly by Mongolian people and brought Mongolian culture and influence with them. granted Monglas were also influenced by Chinese culture so Yuan dynasty is a weird hybrid nation that mixed two cultures together.. Also Kublai maintained to be a Khan as well as first official emperor of Yuan dynasty. So Yuan dynasty was a brief time when Mongal and China interacted for a bit... As for Akbar... what Monglain influence did her brought to India?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Very good channel by the way....

 

[Kupe Navigator]

In that I can agree, I also don't know.
That is the why I always ask for sources. And just have one kind of source I can never complain about. Native Source.

When I search forمغول,I found

and also that.

You know why? Because I just do a QUICK search how to write Mongol in Persian and discover just have one world to both Mongal Empire.

a Mongal king without claims to Mongal lands. Kublai still maintained to be Khan of Mongals. Did Arkbar claim to be Khan of Mongal? Give me Arkbar's Khan name!

 

[Henri Christophe]

a Mongal king without claims to Mongal lands. Kublai still maintained to be Khan of Mongals. Did Arkbar claim to be Khan of Mongal? Give me Arkbar's Khan name!

Justinian was Emperor of Rome without Rome. NO PROBLEM on that.

Give a chance to native sources. Why do you think the British book you learn history know more than this Persians sources I'm sending to you.
Also, it is a shame just have people in this forum who can speak english.
Why don't have anyone from India or Iran to help us?

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Justinian was Emperor of Rome without Rome. NO PROBLEM on that.

He still CLAIMED TO BE ROME AND ITS PEOPLE CALLED THEMSELVES ROMANS. Arkbar NEVER claimed Monglaian heritage nor did Mugal citizens saw themselves as Mongolian

Also, it is a shame just have people in this forum who can speak english.

because... Civ is an English based game? duh? What is next going to Japanese anime site and complain no one in that site speak English?
.

 

[Patine]

I also quote I cool guy saying about the Afro heritage from Caribe can be older than the Colombus Exchange.
I really think about the Olmec-Black heritage was real.

This is obviously, as I've pointed out several times already, almost certainly a matter of Olmec art using darker dyes to depict themselves that would be otherwise normal. People of African racial extraction don't spontaneously "appear," across a big ocean, like magic, nor does a whole ethnicity of Indigenous Western Hemisphere people spontaneously "transform," to people of African extraction, also like magic.

 

[Henri Christophe]

He still CLAIMED TO BE ROME AND ITS PEOPLE CALLED THEMSELVES ROMANS. Arkbar NEVER claimed Monglaian heritage nor did Mugal citizens saw themselves as Mongolian

because... Civ is an English based game? duh? What is next going to Japanese anime site and complain no one in that site speak English?
.

I guess it start to be pointless. It is not more a discussion, but you are repeating your self and repeating my self.
I don't understand history as you, you believe in your british sources.

I just believe in native sources, if Justinian said he was the Roman Emperor. Don't have any British source will change my mind.

This is obviously, as I've pointed out several times already, almost certainly a matter of Olmec art using darker dyes to depict themselves that would be otherwise normal. People of African racial extraction don't spontaneously "appear," across a big ocean, like magic, nor does a whole ethnicity of Indigenous Western Hemisphere people spontaneously "transform," to people of African extraction, also like magic.

Olmec was more black than other Native Americans and just the nobles paint their skin with black to be MORE Black.
The Blackness was praised as something noble and good in Olmec society.


About if they African, that I need to agree it is impossible to know.
US-Sources like to say about the Beringer Straight theory, if we believe in that, so all Native-Americans have a Mongol-Heritage.
But I don't believe in that, my father is a historian of Brazilian Pre-History, and brazilian archeology is starting to believe about African roots to Americas.
But still, we don't have a great fact to help this hypothesis yet.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I just believe in native sources, if Justinian said he was the Roman Emperor. Don't have any British source will change my mind.

WTH? Did I say Justinian wasn't a Roman emperor? And what Britain? Britain wasn't even a thing in Justinian's time Why would Britain need to lie about Justinian?
We are talking about Arkbar NOT Justinian. They are not same people you know.
I think you are getting bit too confused. Confusing Roman emperor with Indian Emperor.

 

[Henri Christophe]

WTH? Did I say Justinian wasn't a Roman emperor? And what Britain? Britain wasn't even a thing in Justinian's time Why would Britain need to lie about Justinian?
We are talking about Arkbar NOT Justinian. They are not same people you know.
I think you are getting bit too confused. Confusing Roman emperor with Indian Emperor.

hahaha I really need to sleep
I was all day here, it is not healthy. I just don't work the last two days
As it is my threat, I fill confortable to go out of topic here....
I work buying chinese stuffs and have also a guy here ask me a thousand of stuff in chinese. I missread what you said.

But still, the Rome empire and Mongol empire have the same issue.
Enlighment Scholars give special name to another historical moment for they.

Rome empire was called Byzantine Empire, Holly Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire and also Russian Empire.
Despite their Emperor all think they self as Roman Emperor.

The same happens in Mongol Empire.
Akbar call him self emperor of مغول, the same name as Gengis Khan empire in Akbar's language.
And Akbar also have Gengis Khan-heritage.

I just can't understand why you don't copy the Mongol name in Persian and search by your self?
If you have something new to say, I would apreciate, but please, not repeat your self.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Rome empire was called Byzantine Empire, Holly Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire and also Russian Empire.

Rome ended with Byzantine Empire. Holy Roman Empire was a copy cat empire set up by germanic people
Ottoman... IT WAS ISLAMIC EMPIRE! ISLAM! ROME AT THE END WAS CHRISTIAN EMPIRE! YOU DUNCE!
Russian Empire was Empire set up by Russian people.
They are not the same. Sure they laid claim as being Rome 3.0 but they all knew Rome was dead.

I just can't understand why you don't copy the Mongol name in Persian and search by your self?
If you have something new to say, I would apreciate, but please, not repeat your self.

what is with obsession with that one word? History is more than a word you know. And Give me quote from Arkbar or his government or his title that says he was mongal empire. Arkbar wasn't a humble man so I doubt he would leave out his claim of being part of one of greatest empire in human history.

 

[Patine]

The same happens in Mongol Empire.
Akbar call him self emperor of مغول, the same name as Gengis Khan empire in Akbar's language.
And Akbar also have Gengis Khan-heritage.

I just can't understand why you don't copy the Mongol name in Persian and search by your self?
If you have something new to say, I would apreciate, but please, not repeat your self.

The title of "Khan," is a generic title of rulership of many Eastern Eurasian Steppe Horse Nomads - it was used by the Xiongnu Khanate, Rouran Khanate, Gokturk Khaganate, Turkic Khaganate (and Eastern and Western Turkic Khaganate), 'Rus Khanate, and Khazar Khaganate, who all long predate the founding of the Mongol Empire. It is not a unique title to Genghis Khan and his descendants, and was very old when he first took it as Temujin after unifying the Mongol Clans.

Olmec was more black than other Native Americans and just the nobles paint their skin with black to be MORE Black.
The Blackness was praised as something noble and good in Olmec society.


About if they African, that I need to agree it is impossible to know.
US-Sources like to say about the Beringer Straight theory, if we believe in that, so all Native-Americans have a Mongol-Heritage.
But I don't believe in that, my father is a historian of Brazilian Pre-History, and brazilian archeology is starting to believe about African roots to Americas.
But still, we don't have a great fact to help this hypothesis yet.

For some reason, you're still reading far too much into Ancient artistic styles. And, I see you just said Native-Americans have a "Mongol-Heritage." Your really hung up on that word for a lot more than just ethnic Mongols. It's HIGHLY racist, and you just don't care, and won't see.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Akbar call him self emperor of مغول, the same name as Gengis Khan empire in Akbar's language.

so did imperial Germans when they called their leader " Kaiser"= Ceasear in German. I guess German empire under Kaiser Whilam I was Roman Empire than eh?

 

[Henri Christophe]

Rome ended with Byzantine Empire. Holy Roman Empire was a copy cat empire set up by germanic people
Ottoman... IT WAS ISLAMIC EMPIRE! ISLAM! ROME AT THE END WAS CHRISTIAN EMPIRE! YOU DUNCE!
Russian Empire was Empire set up by Russian people.
They are not the same. Sure they laid claim as being Rome 3.0 but they all knew Rome was dead.

That is funny, you also have this religous argue against the Muslim Rome. It is the second time I found someone speaking about it. I never understand this issue, why can't have a Muslim Rome?

I really love this issue of Rome, but I'm tired to explain all time.
Ottoman claim be rome by right of conquest, they conquer Constantinopla
Russia claim be rome by Religious right, they are the Ortodoxy.
And have the West-Holly-Habsburg Rome in Vienna.

Europe modern age had their 3 Rome legend very similar to the 3 kingdoms of China.
The difference is, the Chinese is a united country and European have a weird way to still separete they self, all of the most small countries in the world are in this Asiatic peninsula called Europa.

so did imperial Germans when they called their leader " Kaiser"= Ceasear in German. I guess German empire under Kaiser Whilam I was Roman Empire than eh?

Yes, it can be.

The title of "Khan," is a generic title of rulership of many Eastern Eurasian Steppe Horse Nomads - it was used by the Xiongnu Khanate, Rouran Khanate, Gokturk Khaganate, Turkic Khaganate (and Eastern and Western Turkic Khaganate), 'Rus Khanate, and Khazar Khaganate, who all long predate the founding of the Mongol Empire. It is not a unique title to Genghis Khan and his descendants, and was very old when he first took it as Temujin after unifying the Mongol Clans.



For some reason, you're still reading far too much into Ancient artistic styles. And, I see you just said Native-Americans have a "Mongol-Heritage." Your really hung up on that word for a lot more than just ethnic Mongols. It's HIGHLY racist, and you just don't care, and won't see.

I don't say Native Americans had Mongol-Heritage.
I said, if we believe in Beringer hypothesis.... so..... it can be understood....

 

[Patine]

That is funny, you also have this religous argue against the Muslim Rome. It is the second time I found someone speaking about it. I never understand this issue, why can't have a Muslim Rome?

I really love this issue of Rome, but I'm tired to explain all time.
Ottoman claim be rome by right of conquest, they conquer Constantinopla
Russia claim be rome by Religious right, they are the Ortodoxy.
And have the West-Holly-Habsburg Rome in Vienna.

Europe modern age had their 3 Rome legend very similar to the 3 kingdoms of China.
The difference is, the Chinese is a united country and European have a weird way to still separete they self, all of the most small countries in the world are in this Asiatic peninsula called Europa.

Well, if you think this great and glorious "unified China," is such a great deal, be my guest and pay them a visit - but I strongly advise you to not call them "Mongols," unless they are permanent residents of the Inner Mongolia Autonomous Area.

 

[Henri Christophe]

so did imperial Germans when they called their leader " Kaiser"= Ceasear in German. I guess German empire under Kaiser Whilam I was Roman Empire than eh?

About this Kaiser issue, I guess we need to jump in the German Unification and the discussion about the Great German or the German German.
There is this german guy who made some videos about this issue, go on, watch it.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

That is funny, you also have this religous argue against the Muslim Rome. It is the second time I found someone speaking about it. I never understand this issue, why can't have a Muslim Rome?

I really love this issue of Rome, but I'm tired to explain all time.
Ottoman claim be rome by right of conquest, they conquer Constantinopla
Russia claim be rome by Religious right, they are the Ortodoxy.
And have the West-Holly-Habsburg Rome in Vienna.

Europe modern age had their 3 Rome legend very similar to the 3 kingdoms of China.
The difference is, the Chinese is a united country and European have a weird way to still separete they self, all of the most small countries in the world are in this Asiatic peninsula called Europa.

duh! it doesn't work like that! They claimed to be romans but the culture was VERY different! did any of them spoke Latin or even Greek? Culture is important here not what leader claims. Just because a leader claims something dose not mean it is true.

 

[Henri Christophe]

duh! it doesn't work like that! They claimed to be romans but the culture was VERY different! did any of them spoke Latin or even Greek? Culture is important here not what leader claims. Just because a leader claims something dose not mean it is true.

What make a claim something true?

 

[Kupe Navigator]

What make a claim something true?

when people of the land think of it to be true.
If Queen Elizabeth II all of sudden claimed France to be part of Britain dose it makes it part of Britain?

 

[Patine]

duh! it doesn't work like that! They claimed to be romans but the culture was VERY different! did any of them spoke Latin or even Greek? Culture is important here not what leader claims. Just because a leader claims something dose not mean it is true.

Very true. This would mean @Henri Christophe has to honour the title by Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII, and George VI of the UK as "Empress and Emperors of India," as making them legitimate successors to the Maurya, Gupta, Mughal, Chola, and Maratha Empires in more than JUST raw conquest and subordination.

when people of the land think of it to be true.
If Queen Elizabeth II all of sudden claimed France to be part of Britain dose it makes it part of Britain?

Actually, every English, then British, monarch from the end of the Hundred Year's War until the French Revolution did just that. That's why all of the of Royal Coats-of-Arms have French Fleur-de-Lilles quartered in.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Very true. This would mean @Henri Christophe has to honour the title by Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII, and George VI of the UK as "Empress and Emperors of India," as making them legitimate successors to the Maurya, Gupta, Mughal, Chola, and Maratha Empires in more than JUST raw conquest and subordination.

he actually believes it. He thinks queen Victoria can be an Indian leader in civ!