Historical Argument That Was In the Wrong Forum

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't say Native Americans had Mongol-Heritage.
I said, if we believe in Beringer hypothesis.... so..... it can be understood....

Then why did you put out that graph saying there was an over abundance of Caucasian leaders? On that same graph you literally said that every leader from East Asia and Indigenous America, plus the Maori was Mongolish.
The only Caucasian people I see are Tamar of Georgia.

 

[Ajidica]

This thread has taken a very strange turn.

Though, interestingly, the title of the Swedish King until 1973 included the title "King of the Goths and Vandals".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Sweden#Monarch

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

This thread has taken a very strange turn.

It never started going straight.

 

[Henri Christophe]

duh! it doesn't work like that! They claimed to be romans but the culture was VERY different! did any of them spoke Latin or even Greek? Culture is important here not what leader claims. Just because a leader claims something dose not mean it is true.

First a leader need to claim something. As Frederick Barbarosa who claim to be king of Germans.
After we need community approval. This forum aproved the understand as Frederick Barbarosa was king of Germans.
But it is possible to argue Germany just born after Bismarck.

What is the true? There is no true, just narratives.
My favorite historian said once "The past always change"

he actually believes it. He thinks queen Victoria can be an Indian leader in civ!

Yes, I do.
But I don't want it because I want diversity, I don't want to see more white people in Asia.
Enought is enought.

Then why did you put out that graph saying there was an over abundance of Caucasian leaders? On that same graph you literally said that every leader from East Asia and Indigenous America, plus the Maori was Mongolish.
The only Caucasian people I see are Tamar of Georgia.

Okay, I respect you way to see and understand world.
I just don't see the world as you, I think Norways and Turkish very similar. This is the way I see the world.
I think all this "Caucasian" nations are heavily influenced by Bronze age civilizations at a big snow ball of history.
And all other corners of the world just have 5 leaders each. Oceania just 1.

This thread has taken a very strange turn.

Though, interestingly, the title of the Swedish King until 1973 included the title "King of the Goths and Vandals".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Sweden#Monarch

I was making suggestion to new Civs and most of they are very controversial.

I miss black leaders and want to see Blacks outside Africa too.
But this always transform it self in a big racial issue.

The controversia is.
Negro Abraham be leader of Seminole,
He is a mix race Black-Seminole and some users of this forum think a Black leader can erase Seminole-Heritage. (I can't understand why)


And about other Afro-American Civilizations as Haiti or Quilombo of Palmares the controversia is about if they are important or nothing.
About that I have 2 argues.

• They are important, very important.
• What is important? Why we need to measure civilizations? We are all humans.

Other controversia I had was about sources. Most of users of this forum just use Europeans sources, but I want to share this Japanese source about Europe

If we just use Japanese sources to understand Europe, we should understand Modern Europe (~1600) as just one big kingdom called Rome and their king was the Pope.
Of course the community hate this Japanese understanding of Europe, because most of they are White and understand the world by Europeans sources.

I just have one Goal, I want more diversity in this game.
I'm sad to realize the players of this game can't see how un-balanced this game is.
They also argue it is already very diverse. I just can't see this diversity as I understand the world.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Then you understand the world in a really weird (I’d argue wrong and very biased) way.

You’re using a model used by racists to argue your point.

Just because something fits into that model doesn’t mean it’s true. I could argue anything using any model to prove my point.


diversity goes beyond race anyway. There is cultural diversity. Ethnic diversity, Gender diversity. With the leaders in this game, we even have diversity in sexual orientation.

If you can’t look at historical context and obsess over race, you’re going to have a lot of problems with this game, any historical games, and frankly, in life.

edit: I also noted that you called Dravidians black. As a person of dravidian descent, I am not black. Skin color is not a determinant of race.

Race is a social construct. To be completely frank, it isn’t real. Society gives it meaning. The way race is defined today is of a conglomeration of ethnicities that make up the genetic history of any given place.

So subsaharan africans and people who have descendence from SSA recent enough are black.

people from MENA would be considered Middle-Eastern in ethnicity.

People from europe and the caucuses would be white

Asia would be asian

Pacific Islands would be pacific islander

people from latin america, latinx

native north americans, natives

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The controversia is.
Negro Abraham be leader of Seminole,
He is a mix race Black-Seminole and some users of this forum think a Black leader can erase Seminole-Heritage. (I can't understand why)

Nobody is saying that a Black Seminole can't lead a tribe.
The problem is somehow you latched on to one part of a video that you came across how the Seminole tribe grew in numbers because they let in a group of escaped slaves from Africa, fitting your agenda. The matter of a fact is that doesn't make the whole Seminole tribe mixed race which is what everyone is trying to tell you.

If we just use Japanese sources to understand Europe, we should understand Modern Europe (~1600) as just one big kingdom called Rome and their king was the Pope.
Of course the community hate this Japanese understanding of Europe, because most of they are White and understand the world by Europeans sources.

The video literally says how he stops in France, so no Europe is not one big kingdom called Rome, even in this source.

Your disregard to sources and people are really aggravating, especially because most of them are way more intelligent than the ones you have apparently been looking at.
Maybe you should start looking at white people and what they have to say. I'm done.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Your disregard to sources and people are really aggravating, especially because most of them are way more intelligent than the ones you have apparently been looking at.
Maybe you should start looking at white people and what they have to say. I'm done.

His argument is basically, if the source doesn’t agree with me, it’s racist and biased and unreliable

so the peer-reviewed, well-researched encyclopedia is ‘white propaganda’, but UNESCO, a political, non-academic, organization built to basically hype up the places it sets up (and therefore meant to be biased towards them) is a good source

more problematically, he extends the beliefs of racist anthropologists and scientists from the 40s and 50s to modern day white people.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Then you understand the world in a really weird (I’d argue wrong and very biased) way.

I guess all knowledge is biased. Even Math can be biased.

But biased history may influence more our life than biased math.

I guess, all of us here are living in a country who follow enlightment principles in the bases of their government.
Is someone here from Noth Korea? Saudi Arabia? or Zimbabwe? I don't think so...
All governements who have enlightment principles kind of don't like theses others nations, theses others ways to see the world
I never understand, why?
If they are happy in their life, isn't our matter.
Why USA need to invade somewhere else to bring Freedom?
Can I speak about Vietnã?
What was the Vietcong narrative? Why they give their life? What story Hồ Chí Minh tell to they?
Because was astonish! David always defeat Golliath.

Somehow Ho Chi Minh make all Vietnamise people think USA as the Rome-White-Empire, and they don't want to be subjects of an Empire, they are proud people.
And that is the why, even USA killing much more people than Vietcong kill USA soldiers, The Vietnã win this war.
Because Ho Chi Minh's history make more sense to they then the Enlighment version of Democracy-Meritocracy-Capitalism and bla bla bla.

You’re using a model used by racists to argue your point.

Yes, I do.

Just because something fits into that model doesn’t mean it’s true. I could argue anything using any model to prove my point.

What is true?
I don't believe there is something is true. There is your way to understand.
What is true for you can be false for me.

Lao Tsé speak about it in his book, 道德经.
I will give my interpretation of this book: Nothing is right! But it can be wrong.

In other words, if something isn't wrong. Don't mean it is right.
But if something is wrong, than it is not right!

diversity goes beyond race anyway. There is cultural diversity. Ethnic diversity, Gender diversity. With the leaders in this game, we even have diversity in sexual orientation.

I totally agree on that, by Equality agenda I will say yes to ALL female leaders,
But, as I'm a man. They don't call my atention, I don't lost one night searching about womans, but I do it for Black history. I really like they.
We also need a woman here saying about Womans leaders.

If you can’t look at historical context and obsess over race, you’re going to have a lot of problems with this game, any historical games, and frankly, in life.

My obsess of race is representation. They need to be representade.

Can I talk about Quilombo dos Palmares? He is a great Black Hero in Brazilian History.
But some Right-Wings politicians as presindente Bolsonaro like to say they have Slaves.
I mean, they are saying an Black hero have Slaves
It is total fake news! The oldest source who claim there was slavery in Palmares was write in 2002
Why people believe in this source? I DON'T KNOW! But they do!
Nowadays Brazil have many Quilombo cities around, and the leader of Fundação Palmares (a Governement institution) want to destroy this cities, want to forbid their religion, their way of life. It is very sad.

I guess this game have the power to save theses lives, Black lives matter also.

Your disregard to sources and people are really aggravating, especially because most of them are way more intelligent than the ones you have apparently been looking at.
Maybe you should start looking at white people and what they have to say. I'm done.

I don't believe anyone can be better than anyone else.

Nobody is saying that a Black Seminole can't lead a tribe.
The problem is somehow you latched on to one part of a video that you came across how the Seminole tribe grew in numbers because they let in a group of escaped slaves from Africa, fitting your agenda. The matter of a fact is that doesn't make the whole Seminole tribe mixed race which is what everyone is trying to tell you.

I guess in the first forum I was a bit harsh. Sorry.
I don't think it, I guess you missunderstand I, or maybe I don't used the right approach to speak about. Both indeed.

As I said, I was looking some American Historian Nerd talking about some USA War, fun, Seminole who are they?
And I was just astonished about their history. It is just that. I really like their history, I like everything they mean.
They are Black, They are the 5 civilized tribes, they are also Spaniards, they are also Americans. Full Americans.

His argument is basically, if the source doesn’t agree with me, it’s racist and biased and unreliable

so the peer-reviewed, well-researched encyclopedia is ‘white propaganda’, but UNESCO, a political, non-academic, organization built to basically hype up the places it sets up (and therefore meant to be biased towards them) is a good source

more problematically, he extends the beliefs of racist anthropologists and scientists from the 40s and 50s to modern day white people.

About UNESCO source, the thing is.
Study history isn't free, and African's country are poor.
UNESCO give fund to African historians tell their history.
Is that the why is different from Europeans sources, it isn't made by Europeans.
It don't have the Europeans bias.



Also I want to speak another thing.
How many players from Nigeria and India here?
Why we cannot tell the history they want to hear?
Did you know? Bollywood and Nollywood make more money than Hollywood.
How it is possible? Because they are telling another history, without European bias.

This is a global game and I'm just, maybe, the first guy here asking for representation, to also tell our history.
The South World history.
The history of the World not linked with this Abrahamic faiths. Other history, other people.
Representation, just it.

 

[Patine]

I guess all knowledge is biased. Even Math can be biased.

But biased history may influence more our life than biased math.

I guess, all of us here are living in a country who follow enlightment principles in the bases of their government.
Is someone here from Noth Korea? Saudi Arabia? or Zimbabwe? I don't think so...
All governements who have enlightment principles kind of don't like theses others nations, theses others ways to see the world
I never understand, why?
If they are happy in their life, isn't our matter.
Why USA need to invade somewhere else to bring Freedom?
Can I speak about Vietnã?
What was the Vietcong narrative? Why they give their life? What story Hồ Chí Minh tell to they?
Because was astonish! David always defeat Golliath.

Somehow Ho Chi Minh make all Vietnamise people think USA as the Rome-White-Empire, and they don't want to be subjects of an Empire, they are proud people.
And that is the why, even USA killing much more people than Vietcong kill USA soldiers, The Vietnã win this war.
Because Ho Chi Minh's history make more sense to they then the Enlighment version of Democracy-Meritocracy-Capitalism and bla bla bla.


Yes, I do.

What is true?
I don't believe there is something is true. There is your way to understand.
What is true for you can be false for me.

Lao Tsé speak about it in his book, 道德经.
I will give my interpretation of this book: Nothing is right! But it can be wrong.

In other words, if something isn't wrong. Don't mean it is right.
But if something is wrong, than it is not right!


I totally agree on that, by Equality agenda I will say yes to ALL female leaders,
But, as I'm a man. They don't call my atention, I don't lost one night searching about womans, but I do it for Black history. I really like they.
We also need a woman here saying about Womans leaders.


My obsess of race is representation. They need to be representade.

Can I talk about Quilombo dos Palmares? He is a great Black Hero in Brazilian History.
But some Right-Wings politicians as presindente Bolsonaro like to say they have Slaves.
I mean, they are saying an Black hero have Slaves
It is total fake news! The oldest source who claim there was slavery in Palmares was write in 2002
Why people believe in this source? I DON'T KNOW! But they do!
Nowadays Brazil have many Quilombo cities around, and the leader of Fundação Palmares (a Governement institution) want to destroy this cities, want to forbid their religion, their way of life. It is very sad.

I guess this game have the power to save theses lives, Black lives matter also.

I think another part of your problem is stating that a given leader's PR should be taken at face value in their Civ portrayals. This is a separate, but distinct issue. Alexander the Great believed, after slicing the Gordian Knot, the world was RIGHTFULLY his, he just had to conquer it. Chinese Emperors of many dynasties threw in an, "and All Under Heaven," addendum to their titles. Both Medieval Popes and Caliphs claimed a global mandate by religious office. And Idi Amin Dada (who was Black) had "and Lord of the Beasts of the Earth and the Fishes of the Sea," at the end of his ridiculous, megalomaniacal title.

Did you know? Bollywood and Nollywood make more money than Hollywood.
How it is possible? Because they are telling another history, without European bias.

I don't think that's the reason. I'd gander it's because Hollywood, for the most part has become crap and done a nosedive in quality (except special FX, costumes, sets, etc.) and just produces formula drivel with very few new IP's nowadays. Many may disagree with me here. But I HIGHLY doubt the "telling another history, without European bias," is the reason at all.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I think another part of your problem is stating that a given leader's PR should be taken at face value in their Civ portrayals. This is a separate, but distinct issue. Alexander the Great believed, after slicing the Gordian Knot, the world was RIGHTFULLY his, he just had to conquer it. Chinese Emperors of many dynasties threw in an, "and All Under Heaven," addendum to their titles. Both Medieval Popes and Caliphs claimed a global mandate by religious office. And Idi Amin Dada (who was Black) had "and Lord of the Beasts of the Earth and the Fishes of the Sea," at the end of his ridiculous, megalomaniacal title.

I'm not always right. I just saying to look what theses leaders think about they self.
If you find a good source saying. Look, Alexander the Great think about it self as that because it.
Amazing, I will take a look, we can argue about some points.
But, the source is very important also. We cannot take all information from a Britannica web page.
When you click it open the Churchil face.
There are people in UK want to take out Churchil's statue too.
How many people Churchil kill in British Raj?
I don't want to see a source who opens with the Churchil face.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I guess all knowledge is biased. Even Math can be biased.

But biased history may influence more our life than biased math.

I guess, all of us here are living in a country who follow enlightment principles in the bases of their government.
Is someone here from Noth Korea? Saudi Arabia? or Zimbabwe? I don't think so...
All governements who have enlightment principles kind of don't like theses others nations, theses others ways to see the world
I never understand, why?
If they are happy in their life, isn't our matter.
Why USA need to invade somewhere else to bring Freedom?
Can I speak about Vietnã?
What was the Vietcong narrative? Why they give their life? What story Hồ Chí Minh tell to they?
Because was astonish! David always defeat Golliath.

Somehow Ho Chi Minh make all Vietnamise people think USA as the Rome-White-Empire, and they don't want to be subjects of an Empire, they are proud people.
And that is the why, even USA killing much more people than Vietcong kill USA soldiers, The Vietnã win this war.
Because Ho Chi Minh's history make more sense to they then the Enlighment version of Democracy-Meritocracy-Capitalism and bla bla bla.


Yes, I do.

What is true?
I don't believe there is something is true. There is your way to understand.
What is true for you can be false for me.

Lao Tsé speak about it in his book, 道德经.
I will give my interpretation of this book: Nothing is right! But it can be wrong.

In other words, if something isn't wrong. Don't mean it is right.
But if something is wrong, than it is not right!


I totally agree on that, by Equality agenda I will say yes to ALL female leaders,
But, as I'm a man. They don't call my atention, I don't lost one night searching about womans, but I do it for Black history. I really like they.
We also need a woman here saying about Womans leaders.


My obsess of race is representation. They need to be representade.

Can I talk about Quilombo dos Palmares? He is a great Black Hero in Brazilian History.
But some Right-Wings politicians as presindente Bolsonaro like to say they have Slaves.
I mean, they are saying an Black hero have Slaves
It is total fake news! The oldest source who claim there was slavery in Palmares was write in 2002
Why people believe in this source? I DON'T KNOW! But they do!
Nowadays Brazil have many Quilombo cities around, and the leader of Fundação Palmares (a Governement institution) want to destroy this cities, want to forbid their religion, their way of life. It is very sad.

I guess this game have the power to save theses lives, Black lives matter also.

I’d agree with you if this was a game where the characters did something or had impact on a story, because the representation mean something. In this case though, more than anything, what matters is whether the most important, powerful, relevant kingdoms and empires are represented.

I'm not always right. I just saying to look what theses leaders think about they self.
If you find a good source saying. Look, Alexander the Great think about it self as that because it.
Amazing, I will take a look, we can argue about some points.
But, the source is very important also. We cannot take all information from a Britannica web page.
When you click it open the Churchil face.
There are people in UK want to take out Churchil's statue too.
How many people Churchil kill in British Raj?
I don't want to see a source who opens with the Churchil face.

I don’t think churchill’s picture on their website means they agree with churchill

and just because UNESCO funds black historians doesn’t make them an unbiased spurce

 

[Henri Christophe]

I’d agree with you if this was a game where the characters did something or had impact on a story, because the representation mean something. In this case though, more than anything, what matters is whether the most important, powerful, relevant kingdoms and empires are represented.




I don’t think churchill’s picture on their website means they agree with churchill

and just because UNESCO funds black historians doesn’t make them an unbiased spurce

Churchil can mean different things for different person.
If you like him, okay. He defeated the Nazi-Germany. That was great! You should be proud of it.
But when I saw Churchill, I remember the British-Raj hungry.
Based on the Thomas Maltus and Social Darwinism policy he starv Indians and also the Ireland.
Is that history I remember when I saw Churchill, another history, important to another people, in another nations.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I don't want to see a source who opens with the Churchil face.

That is bit petty and not a good attitude as a historian. A historian would use a source even if it had Hitler's face on top of it IF if had good historical value. Heck what do you think they used to study WWII and Nazi Germany when most of German sources during WWII were filled with things linked with Hitler.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't believe anyone can be better than anyone else.

Apparently you do and I haven't seen it otherwise.

You don't believe in sources that don't fit your agenda. You can't look at any sources if they look like they are "European /white" when talking about other cultures.

However it's perfectly fine for a Japanese source to talk about European history, let alone believing the whole race concept from a German that lived in the 1700s. It's hypocrisy at it's fine.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Churchil can mean different things for different person.
If you like him, okay. He defeated the Nazi-Germany. That was great! You should be proud of it.
But when I saw Churchill, I remember the British-Raj hungry.
Based on the Thomas Maltus and Social Darwinism policy he starv Indians and also the Ireland.
Is that history I remember when I saw Churchill, another history, important to another people, in another nations.

Just because it has face of him dose not mean it is pro-churchil source. Do you know the phrase don't judge the book by its cover?
"Ewwww chuchil face. It is imperial propaganda! Gross!" Is what you sound like

 

[Ajidica]

I was making suggestion to new Civs and most of they are very controversial.

I miss black leaders and want to see Blacks outside Africa too.

But this always transform it self in a big racial issue.

I mean, when you are trying to present Olmecs as being of African descent, and rely on dodgy racial pseudoscience to 'prove' it, you can't be surprised when you get pushback.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Apparently you do and I haven't seen it otherwise.

You don't believe in sources that don't fit your agenda. You can't look at any sources if they look like they are "European /white" when talking about other cultures.

However it's perfectly fine for a Japanese source to talk about European history, let alone believing the whole race concept from a German that lived in the 1700s. It's hypocrisy at it's fine.

I can say the same about you.
Everybody here just believe in their own sources, with their own bias.


Another thing. Let's see this IDH Map.

Why the countries with higher suicide rates had the best "qualification" in this IDH?

My chinese teacher goes to North Korea once and told me they are the most Happy country in the world. In this European-bias-IDH source don't even have North Korea data.
Buttan also do this claim, of the most happy country in this world, this map show they as Orange.

IDH maps always is very biased

I mean, when you are trying to present Olmecs as being of African descent, and rely on dodgy racial pseudoscience to 'prove' it, you can't be surprised when you get pushback.

I don't say Olmecs are African, I said I think they are Black.
Olmec civilization is not just Black, they paint their body with Black to look like more Black.
They praise Blackness..
I would love to see an Olmec Civilization with this kind of Olmec Leader.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

My chinese teacher goes to North Korea once and told me they are the most Happy country in the world.

WTF? You believe it? A country on the same level as Somalia! A nation that would kill you on public for owning a Bible. A nation that just blew up a defacto embassy building? Maybe we don't have N.korean data because they don't share data?

I can say the same about you.
Everybody here just believe in their own sources, with their own bias.


Another thing. Let's see this IDH Map.

Why the countries with higher suicide rates had the best "qualification" in this IDH?

My chinese teacher goes to North Korea once and told me they are the most Happy country in the world. In this European-bias-IDH source don't even have North Korea data.
Buttan also do this claim, of the most happy country in this world, this map show they as Orange.

IDH maps always is very biased


I don't say Olmecs are African, I said I think they are Black.
Olmec civilization is not just Black, they paint their body with Black to look like more Black.
They praise Blackness..
I would love to see an Olmec Civilization with this kind of Olmec Leader.

So if a guy paints himself black he is black. So blackface is praising blackness?

 

[Henri Christophe]

So if a guy paints himself black he is black. So blackface is praising blackness?

Not, I guess when a White guy paint his face as Black face. He is a racist.
He is racist because what he is doing with this Black face, try to look to him, why he painted his face of black, is it because he is proud of blackness?.. I don't think so.

But I think the Black face is just racist in USA. In Neederlands it isn't.

In Neederlands they have another reasons to do that.


is that the why we always need to avoid over simplification.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Not, I guess when a White guy paint his face as Black face. He is a racist.
He is racist because what he is doing with this Black face, try to look to him, why he painted his face of black, is it because he is proud of blackness?.. I don't think so.

But I think the Black face is just racist in USA. In Neederlands it isn't.

In Neederlands they have another reasons to do that.


is that the why we always need to avoid over simplification.

Olmecs had other reasons to paint black... maybe because it was ceremonial reasons. Olmecs are same race as its successor Mayans. You calling Mayans as blacks?