Historical Argument That Was In the Wrong Forum

[Caesar of Bread]

Despite I love the thema of what race was the egyptians, I don't have nothing new to add in this thema.
I like to believe before 3200 ac the egyptian are mostly black, but since early on they have flux of migration of middle east to Egypt, making they not so that black.
Also is possible to see on paintings the Egyptians are more kind of "pardos".

But still, some leaders as Ramsés II could be made a little bit darker, since it's also unknown if they are so white as it is portraited in civ games.

I don't have anything to add to the debate.
We could just make Ramses II/Hatsheput/whomever else you want for Egypt before Cambyses' invasion have ambiguous heritage. Cleopatra more Greek tones, Muhammud Ali Pasha is (you can fact check me here) Albanian, so...

 

[Henri Christophe]

We could just make Ramses II/Hatsheput/whomever else you want for Egypt before Cambyses' invasion have ambiguous heritage. Cleopatra more Greek tones, Muhammud Ali Pasha is (you can fact check me here) Albanian, so...

Since it's totally unknown what race had Ramsés II or Hatsheput. Why don't be a black character once? We already have Ramsés II as white in Civ5 and 6.
I didn't play older games to see how Ramsés was decapted, but I'm pretty sure was also white.
Maybe civ 7 can works with the doubt of his race and just put a black Ramsés II.
Cleoptra I understand she had a Greek heritage and Ali Pasha I don't believe he will become a civ leader, but I will also understand if he appears as white.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Since it's totally unknown what race had Ramsés II or Hatsheput. Why don't be a black character once? We already have Ramsés II as white in Civ5 and 6.
I didn't play older games to see how Ramsés was decapted, but I'm pretty sure was also white.
Maybe civ 7 can works with the doubt of his race and just put a black Ramsés II.
Cleoptra I understand she had a Greek heritage and Ali Pasha I don't believe he will become a civ leader, but I will also understand if he appears as white.

I'd much rather prefer ambiguous heritage, as this would (hopefully) prevent arguments on either side to "make him white" or "make him black".

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please let us not get into this again. Enough with skin color.

 

[Patine]

Muhammud Ali Pasha is (you can fact check me here) Albanian, so...

He wouldn't have spoken Albanian in his role as ruler as Egypt (just like Laurier didn't often speak French in his role as PM of Canada, especially not when representing Canada abroad - grrrr).

 

[Caesar of Bread]

He wouldn't have spoken Albanian in his role as ruler as Egypt (just like Laurier didn't often speak French in his role as PM of Canada, especially not when representing Canada abroad - grrrr).

You're Canadian? Nice. Could you help me prove my science class that Canadians aren't always nice?

 

[Patine]

You're Canadian? Nice. Could you help me prove my science class that Canadians aren't always nice?

They're not. Indeed, Canadian society is getting more and more hard-edged and divisive - and rude. There you go!

 

[Caesar of Bread]

They're not. Indeed, Canadian society is getting more and more hard-edged and divisive - and rude. There you go!

Thanks!

 

[Henri Christophe]

I'd much rather prefer ambiguous heritage, as this would (hopefully) prevent arguments on either side to "make him white" or "make him black".

I think a Ramsés with ambiguous heritage should be the minimun a game as Civilization should do, but instead, they still doing very White Ramsés, that one have even blue eyes!

 

[Caesar of Bread]

I think a Ramsés with ambiguous heritage should be the minimun a game as Civilization should do, but instead, they still doing very White Ramsés, that one have even blue eyes!

I honestly wouldn't care about the race of Ramses or Hatshepsut (maybe they are albino, where there skin is lighter). But, if they make Harriet Tubman or Ana Nzinga a 50-year old white male in another game, I would be freaking mad

 

[Henri Christophe]

I honestly wouldn't care about the race of Ramses or Hatshepsut (maybe they are albino, where there skin is lighter). But, if they make Harriet Tubman or Ana Nzinga a 50-year old white male in another game, I would be freaking mad

I care a lot about this issue of races of Eyptians. The most ancient of civilizations of the world isn't white and that hurts the ego of eurocentrists, so they portraited an African Pharaoh as White to fell better, what is very wrong.
And I'm pretty sure Ramsés II isn't albino, it's a very rare skin condition if it's happens I'm pretty sure we should have some hieroglyphs speaking about it.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

The Ivory King? Probably.

White Jesus hung on my Gramma's wall forever. People want to identify with, and I doubt there's much consciousness of racial issues, usually, when people do that, for all that it's wrong. Ramesses there is definitely a few shades too pale, and the blues eyes are almost certainly wrong once you see them. but - that's a pretty good Egyptian face. Somebody probably got it right, or close to, in the early drafts and then too-many-cooks kicked in w/ some wrong color adjustments for whatever reason...

 

[Caesar of Bread]

The Ivory King? Probably.

White Jesus hung on my Gramma's wall forever. People want to identify with, and I doubt there's much consciousness of racial issues, usually, when people do that, for all that it's wrong. Ramesses there is definitely a few shades too pale, and the blues eyes are almost certainly wrong once you see them. but - that's a pretty good Egyptian face. Somebody probably got it right, or close to, in the early drafts and then too-many-cooks kicked in w/ some wrong color adjustments for whatever reason...

Dang, that's the second time he was hung on wood

 

[Edmund Ironside]

The most ancient of civilizations of the world isn't white and that hurts the ego of eurocentrists, so they portraited an African Pharaoh as White to fell better, what is very wrong.

Personally I would count Sumerians as the most ancient civilization of the world, but I know what constitutes a civilization is debated.
I agree with what Busters uncle said, Rameses is too pale, but I don't think this was a conscious effort to distort history but rather an unintentional error.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Personally I would count Sumerians as the most ancient civilization of the world

Yeah, can be. But Sumerian aren't white either. Despite already being Caucasian and Semitics.

Rameses is too pale, but I don't think this was a conscious effort to distort history but rather an unintentional error.

I don't take that of unintentional error, they need to pay atention of details in this game.
And it isn't the first time Ramsés is portraited as white, I remeber in Civ5 it isn't that better. Maybe civ5 was less eurocentric because Ramsés didn't had the blue eyes as in civ 6.

But why anyone complains about that before? I'm pretty sure Fireaxis is already aware about this issue but just don't pay attention off, that's the why they still doing Ramsés whiter in each interation of the game.


I just put this image to show how Egyptians had a lot of races backgorund, but neither was white as Fireaxis's Ramsés II.

 

[Patine]

I care a lot about this issue of races of Eyptians. The most ancient of civilizations of the world isn't white and that hurts the ego of eurocentrists, so they portraited an African Pharaoh as White to fell better, what is very wrong.
And I'm pretty sure Ramsés II isn't albino, it's a very rare skin condition if it's happens I'm pretty sure we should have some hieroglyphs speaking about it.

They may not be, "White," as we know it, but I would be pretty sure it wasn't, "Black," either. But it seems you still buy into that outmoded and long-discarded, "three-race-system," of anthropology created by a German scientist who was, himself, very racist. You have to shed that old, obsolete viewpoint, and realize there are significantly more than three races, and the idea of the Egyptians not being neither, "White," or, "Black," is not really inconceivable or shocking.

 

[Henri Christophe]

It may not be, "White," as we know it, but I would be pretty sure it wasn't, "Black," either.

How can be you sure they aren't black?

Propably the pharao aren't black or white, but since it was made a lot of times white pharaos, why can't do a black pharao?

"three-race-system," of anthropology created by a German scientist who was, himself, very racist. You have to shed that old, obsolete viewpoint, and realize there are significantly more than three races, and the idea of the Egyptians not being either, "White," or, "Black," is not really inconceivable or shocking.

I can agree with you Egyptians aren't Black or White, but this game just portraited as White, never as Black. Don't even made something in between, is always very white.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

Dang, that's the second time he was hung on wood

It was a painting, BTW, of living White Jesus w/ pretty auburn hair & beard knocking on a plank door (Jesus is knocking)-. Gramma was a protestant. The wall may have been wood panel, though; I forget.

I definitely acknowledge that racial representation issues matter - see everything Whoopie Goldberg ever said about Nichelle Nichols, and see also Nichols' Martin Luther King story, both very easy to google. For all that I point out that whitening is probably mostly done in innocent ignorance, I want to stick up for Mr. Christophe that far - his accuracy arguments may be weaker than weak, which naturally offends the exacting nerd sensibility, but what motivates them is still a valid issue. Black Ramesses neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket, and I vote we concede this argument on those grounds.

 

[Patine]

How can be you sure they aren't black?

Propably the pharao aren't black or white, but since it was made a lot of times white pharaos, why can't do a black pharao?


I can agree with you Egyptians aren't Black or White, but this game just portraited as White, never as Black. Don't even made something in between, is always very white.

I would say the more tan, swarthy colouration and straight, dark brown, almost black hair and brown eyes of most North Africans and a large number of Middle-Easterner would be most appropriate, and moreso than either, "White," or, "Black."

 

[Snowygerry]

[...]
I just put this image to show how Egyptians had a lot of races backgorund, but neither was white as Fireaxis's Ramsés II.

Hm - they could well be a foreign people paying tribute to the Egyptians.

They bring slaves, rolls, animals even a giraffe, likely from deeper in Africa ?