History questions not worth their own thread V

[H4run]

Incas developed large empires with complex social and technological structures despite having only a handful of domestic animals, none of which are nearly as useful as the horse, pig or cow.

how about the notion that the Indian stuck in the stone ages when the European come to contact with them (they not really evolve technologically since the first migration)? they still don't know how to make iron, how to ride horse, etc etc.

 

[Lord Baal]

how about the notion that the Indian stuck in the stone ages when the European come to contact with them (they not really evolve technologically since the first migration)? they still don't know how to make iron, how to ride horse, etc etc.

It's hard to ride horses when you don't have them. Native Americans weren't working iron or bronze, but they compensated by being excellent at smelting gold and silver. They were far and above the "Stone Age," if one can even apply that term to Meso-America.

 

[Traitorfish]

Where's the equation between technological advance and metalwork coming from, anyway? The Andeans did more with stone and textiles than most Old Worlders ever did with iron.

 

[Masada]

*shrug*

Europeans are weird.

 

[Lord Baal]

Where's the equation between technological advance and metalwork coming from, anyway? The Andeans did more with stone and textiles than most Old Worlders ever did with iron.

Yeah, we still don't know how the Andeans did some of the things they did.

 

[TheLastOne36]

That didn't actually happen, lah.

Well, I would expect you to be more read on the subject, being from the region. So I must ask, what is your whole take on the "Out-of-Taiwan" model and who were the people living in Indonesia before Austronesians, if not Melanesians?

And why do the Andaman Islanders, Filipino Negritos, and other similar groups exist then? Why didn't Austronesians take over New Guinea, Solomon Islands and Australia?

 

[Cutlass]

I'm very interested in both these things. I'd never actually heard of the latter example as more than a myth, to be honest. Do you have any sources?

IIRC Mann made the argument in 1493 that there was a fairly well developed culture in the Amazon Basin before Columbus. But as these people didn't often build of stone and it is an environment where nothing else gets preserved, little evidence remains.

 

[Lord Baal]

IIRC Mann made the argument in 1493 that there was a fairly well developed culture in the Amazon Basin before Columbus. But as these people didn't often build of stone and it is an environment where nothing else gets preserved, little evidence remains.

Don't most of the old arguments about Amazonian culture involve non-humanoid beings with faces in their chest and other nonsense though? In addition, of course, to mythical golden cities such as El Dorado and Oz.

 

[Cutlass]

Don't most of the old arguments about Amazonian culture involve non-humanoid beings with faces in their chest and other nonsense though? In addition, of course, to mythical golden cities such as El Dorado and Oz.

It's been a while since I read it, so I probably don't have the details right. But I think he was basing the argument off evidence that charcoal was used as fertilizer in order to make the soils much more productive.

 

[Traitorfish]

That's one of the arguments which has been put forward for large-scale settlement in the Amazon basin, but Mann was critical because all observed slash-and-char practices rely on metal tools to be efficient. His argument is more about critiquing the assumption that large-scale settlement presumes a patch of absolutely clear ground in which you do agriculture, instead suggesting that the cultivation of the forest themselves could have supplemented horticulture enough to support large-scale populations.

 

[TheLastOne36]

That sub-thesis is incorrect, by the way, since groups don't need immunities from disease in order to cross an ocean. Domestic animals certainly help a society to thrive and develop technologically, but groups such as the Incas developed large empires with complex social and technological structures despite having only a handful of domestic animals, none of which are nearly as useful as the horse, pig or cow.

No they don't, but Diamond uses the European immunities from disease (and Amerindian lack of it) to suggest that when the two groups would finally meet in the Americas, the result would be the same. (Amerindians dieing to huge epidemics, their societies being flung into chaos)

I'm very interested in both these things. I'd never actually heard of the latter example as more than a myth, to be honest. Do you have any sources?

I am not well read on the latest findings but I believe the biggest thing going for it is the Terra Preta.

I can tell you from my own personal experience in Venezuela, that there are step pyramids in the Jungle somewhere near Apure, way too far north and into the thick forest to be from Incan civilization, and obviously very far away from the Mayans as well. These step pyramids and other monuments also had hieroglyphs transcribed on them.

It's a shame that before any archeological work was done on them, the government decided to build a dam and flood the whole region. So now these pyramids are under water.

Many - though by no means all - of the native groups contacted by both Cortes and Pizarro saw the Spanish as gods. It is quite the coincidence that both Aztec and Incan cultures had the legend of a god who went to the sea and would return, only to have the Spanish come from the same direction at correct time of year. Montezuma II himself seemed to believe the rumours, at least initially. The priesthood of Quetzlcoatl even used the cross as a symbol, which came in very handy for the Catholic Conquistadores.

Only the Incas actually seemed capable of putting up an organised fight against the Conquistadores - the Tlaxcalans did so as well, but they are obviously a much smaller group, and they ended up allying with the Spanish - and they had the misfortune of being in the middle of a bloody civil war right when the Spanish turned up. The Aztec's system of government - a loose confederacy under Tenochtitlan's hegemony for only thirty years or so - was very prone to interference from outsiders, whereas the Incan system was very closed. This made it far more difficlut to infiltrate, though the fact that the Incas had very light skin for Native Americans - and red and blonde hair and beards - seems to helped the Spanish somewhat, especially in establishing their own government after the Incas were ousted.

It seems Atahualpa actually ordered certain of his generals not to butcher Pizarro's men until he'd seen them himself, out of curiosity. He definitely wanted their horses for himself, which some of his lieutenants referred to as "super-llamas" (I swear I'm not making that last part up, it's the actual translation). Pizarro carefully kept his guns hidden until he was ready to use them, which was a pretty wise decision on his part, as the Incas used a variety of ranged weapons which would have rendered his guns useless in a set-piece battle against them.

Thanks. And super-llamas. That's hilarious.

 

[TheLastOne36]

It's hard to ride horses when you don't have them. Native Americans weren't working iron or bronze, but they compensated by being excellent at smelting gold and silver. They were far and above the "Stone Age," if one can even apply that term to Meso-America.

Further, when introduced to horses (among other things) they quickly adapted and became masters at it. Within generations of being introduced to horses, there were already nomadic and semi-nomadic groups of Native Americans on horseback, as portrayed in all those western movies.

I think it's silly to assert that Native Americans were backwards or otherwise inferior in any way. They were just forced to deal with the hand they were dealt.

 

[H4run]

yea it is silly I don't believe it yet I can't negate it, as I don't really spare my time to read on those subject so I verify things that I discuss with my friend over here and he get it by reading Jared Diamond book he also state the native American aren't really evolve technologically after the migration. Seeing Manchu Pichu or Aztec pyramids I doubt that notion. But yes I try to understand their evolvement using my own measurement, I just hoping there is an argument that negate the Natives doesn't know metal casting.

I learn a lot though thanks for all the reply

 

[Joecoolyo]

Ahh, was not aware. Wouldn't mind seeing some more comprehensive accounts on the matter though.

I want to say Mann talked about about it for a bit in 1491, but its been a while since I read it and I could be wrong.

The Spanish certainly blew it out of proportion, but such worship certainly existed, especially among coastal peoples. Many diaries of Conquistadores support this. While they probably lied in letters and their statements to officials, it's unlikely they lied in the own diaries and personal correspondence amongst each other.

This worship tended to give way to confusion very quickly, however, since the Conquistadores certainly didn't act like gods. Gods don't rape that much, unless they're Ancient Greek. The Incas, in particular, seem to have complained about their odour. It should also be noted that the Incas seem to have intimidated the hell out of the Conquistadores whent hey first met, since they didn't act in the fashion the Spanish had grown accustomed to in their previous interactions with the natives. Several Conquistadores commented that the Incans treated them as inferiors, or at best as equals. This would seem to indicate that it was unusual for the Spaniards to be considered mere mortals by the natives when first contact was made.

Hmm... now this is interesting, since I've heard contradictory things on the topic. I would think that it is possible that the conquistadors may have misinterpreted native actions, seeing worship where it might not have been. Though I'm not well read on topic (as much as I'd like to be, Pre-Columbian history is very interesting), so that's just idle speculation on my part.

 

[Masada]

Well, I would expect you to be more read on the subject, being from the region. So I must ask, what is your whole take on the "Out-of-Taiwan" model and who were the people living in Indonesia before Austronesians, if not Melanesians?

Sure, there were population movements of people from what-is-now China (or thereabouts) in the Malay Archipelago around that time. These new comers added some things: new forms of cultural expression, new agricultural techniques and new (Austronesian) languages for example. But they didn't replace the existing population. The existing population over-time simply adopted what the new comers had to offer.

I'll write some more on this tonight.

 

[Domen]

Why so few civilizations emerged in the Southern Hemisphere, compared to the Northern Hemisphere?

Is it because of a smaller landmass... , or because they were always upside down?

 

[innonimatu]

This tended to happen everywhere the Europeans ran into a truly hostile environment, such as the Patzinal, Amazon, Central America and Equatorial Africa. I'm honestly shocked more Portuguese didn't die in the Kingdom of Kongo than did historically.

That last thing is intriguing, becaue there are references to large expeditions as early as the 1570s that were supposedly successful. Whereas by the 1760s a push towards the interior in Angola was quietly abandoned due to high casualties to disease.
Perhaps the alliance that existed during those earlier contacts garanteed better food, shelter and guidance to the strangers and reduced the typical casualties. I don't know. Historians of the Americas are lucky, the vast spanish archives hage largely survived. Most of the portuguese archives perished in 1755.

I would like to know how well the dutch did in the 1640s in Angola regarding casualties to disease there.

Where's the equation between technological advance and metalwork coming from, anyway? The Andeans did more with stone and textiles than most Old Worlders ever did with iron.

That might be true. But, well, the old worlders conquered them with iron weapons. Screw the wonders, always go for Iron Working if you may have another civilization showing up soon.

 

[Lord Baal]

No they don't, but Diamond uses the European immunities from disease (and Amerindian lack of it) to suggest that when the two groups would finally meet in the Americas, the result would be the same. (Amerindians dieing to huge epidemics, their societies being flung into chaos)

The issue with that argument is that Diamond posits that this immunity helped the Europeans conquer the Americas - which is certainly true - as part of his geocentric thesis that Eurasia was bound to conquer the Americas. The latter is manifestly false; while the Amerindians didn't create ocean-crossing vessels of their own, there is no particular reason why they couldn't have developed them, in which case, while they would doubtless have caught diseases from the Eurasians, there is no particular reason why large-scale epidemics would have broken out. Even if they had, the Europeans would not have been in a position to take advantage of them.

I am not well read on the latest findings but I believe the biggest thing going for it is the Terra Preta.

I can tell you from my own personal experience in Venezuela, that there are step pyramids in the Jungle somewhere near Apure, way too far north and into the thick forest to be from Incan civilization, and obviously very far away from the Mayans as well. These step pyramids and other monuments also had hieroglyphs transcribed on them.

It's a shame that before any archeological work was done on them, the government decided to build a dam and flood the whole region. So now these pyramids are under water.

I read a news report just yesterday, as a matter of fact, detailing something similar in Belize. A huge Mayan temple complex was bulldozed so that the stones could be used to pave a road.

Thanks. And super-llamas. That's hilarious.

It was certainly the highlight of the description Atahualpa's lieutenant (I cannot recall his name, but he was only half-Inca, so therefore unusual in gaining such high position) gave him on the approaching Spanish. They were described (to paraphrase, since I no longer own the book I got this from) "great smelly men, with beards like the chosen (Incas had beards, unlike the majority of their subject peoples) who speak an unknown tongue, with silver tubes (that would be guns) that they carry everywhere. They also have several great silver barrels (Pizarro's cannons) that they will not let us near. Many of them ride super-llamas, which are far larger than any llama in your kingdom, even in the east."

Atahualpa's response was essentially "don't kill them until I've seen them for myself," despite his lieutenant advising him to kill them, take their "super-llamas" and send their corpses to every corner of the empire, as Pizarro was cleverly crafting alliances with the Incan subject-peoples on his way to Cuzco.

That last thing is intriguing, becaue there are references to large expeditions as early as the 1570s that were supposedly successful. Whereas by the 1760s a push towards the interior in Angola was quietly abandoned due to high casualties to disease.
Perhaps the alliance that existed during those earlier contacts garanteed better food, shelter and guidance to the strangers and reduced the typical casualties. I don't know. Historians of the Americas are lucky, the vast spanish archives hage largely survived. Most of the portuguese archives perished in 1755.

I would like to know how well the dutch did in the 1640s in Angola regarding casualties to disease there.

Masada might know about the Dutch.

I'm aware that there were apparently several expeditions into the Kongo by Portugal, some of which were roaring successes, mostly because you told me a long time ago and I researched it afterwards. I believe one of those expeditions even marched all the way through to the other side of Africa, ending up in Ethiopia somehow, where they interfered in a dynastic squabble. It's always surprised me, since most Europeans tended to die pretty routinely when exposed to Africa. I believe Portuguese soldiers were deserting and willingly going to prison rather than being sent to Ngola at one point, since prison had a higher survival rate.

That might be true. But, well, the old worlders conquered them with iron weapons. Screw the wonders, always go for Iron Working if you may have another civilization showing up soon.

Praetorian-rush ftw. The Maso-Americans aso foolishly skipped over The Wheel, just because they didn't have horses. No wonder they had so much trouble linking up their cities and resources.

 

[History_Buff]

...while the Amerindians didn't create ocean-crossing vessels of their own, there is no particular reason why they couldn't have developed them, in which case, while they would doubtless have caught diseases from the Eurasians, there is no particular reason why large-scale epidemics would have broken out. Even if they had, the Europeans would not have been in a position to take advantage of them.

Wouldn't they? I don't see why that situation (Amerindians crossing to Eurasia) would turn out much differently. In the early days of Columbian exchange, I didn't think the Europeans were really penetrating very far, the implication being that it had to be the Amerindians who were spreading it after contracting it themselves.

 

[Lord Baal]

Wouldn't they? I don't see why that situation (Amerindians crossing to Eurasia) would turn out much differently. In the early days of Columbian exchange, I didn't think the Europeans were really penetrating very far, the implication being that it had to be the Amerindians who were spreading it after contracting it themselves.

This is true. I worded that poorly.

It would be more accurate to say that while epidemics would probably have broken out here and there, it is unlikely that they would have been as bad as in OTL. 95% is a huge number, and if it were Amerindians crossing the Atlantic they'd just as likely die while still in Europe, or en masse on the return voyage. Even those who returned to spread illnesses would do so at a slower rate, simply by virtue of only bringing back some of the European diseases, as opposed to the wholesale importation of every single European disease ever by a bunch of whoremongering sailors and soldiers. The slower spread of diseases would have enabled immunity to be built up over time, as opposed to simply killing off 19 out of every 20 people on the continent.

The Amerindians are also unlikely to have spread quite as many STDs, since they were unlikely to go around gang-raping every Amerindian female that caught their eye when they returned to the Americas, though they'd still likely frequent the same brothels and prostitutes that European sailors did in Europe. Men tend to do that sort of thing.