History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VI

[Agent327]

Ghenghis Khan was already dead before the main attack on (Song) China.

They did have such divisions. Three types - Panzer Divisions, Light Divisions and Motorized Infantry Divisions.

I was talking of actual in the field divisions, not purely administrative ones.

It is a myth, they started a major war in 1939 so they expected it more than anyone else.

I'm sorry, but it is hard fact. Hitler honestly did not believe the UK and France would go to war over Poland. He hadn't realized the then Allies had abandoned their appeasement policy permanently. Also, he told his generals about expecting a major war in 1942, not before. Both these things are on record.

In Europe against much better German tanks it would be a slaughter for poor Matildas.

Actually, German tanks weren't better at all and as Rommel's short encounter with a bunch of Mathildas in Belgium showed they in fact had inferior armour. The strength of the German army lay in its integrated use of army and airforce units and the fact that they used their armour in numbers, not as an infantry supporting element as the Allies originally did. The tank that most Allied untis would encounter during WW II was the Panzer IV, not the more known Panzers V Panther and VI Tiger, which were only entering service around mid 1943.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Ghenghis Khan was already dead before the main attack on (Song) China.

I'm guessing he meant northern China under the Jin.

 

[r16]

Those were not the same models of those tanks, but entirely different variants.

Panzer IV tank fought in Poland in 1939 and in Berlin in 1945, but Panzer IV from 1945 were mostly different versions.

Look how many versions of Panzer IV there were:

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzer_IV.php

Of course some of those early versions were still in service in 1944, but majority at that time were new versions.

Well, OK - but those were upgraded versions, as you also wrote.

syria had IVs until 1967 on the Golan Heights , mostly as static pillboxes and apparently they performed well .

 

[Tee Kay]

don't really want to make a new thread for this (though i will if people think i should), but i'm thinking of writing up an alternate history on another website for what would happen if genghis khan died when he attacked china (but assumed he lived through the assassination attempt at age 9, like in our timeline). i can post it when i get some of the work done, but i was wondering what you guys thought. i'll post some of my ideas, then you guys can discuss/refute them and add your own:
-relations improve between xia and jin dynasties, due to alliance formed to push back mongols
-but maybe they also hire mongol mercenaries
-more work done on great wall
-team up on song dynasty, maybe also on tibet
-baghdad doesn't get razed by mongols
-mongols probably try stuff again eventually
-other stuff i haven't thought of yet

Mongols being eventually coopted/absorbed by the Jin or Xia is a likely scenario, perhaps even rebelling/overthrowing the Jin and setting up their own dynasty afterwards. But by that point they would've been more Sinicised.

The Great Wall wasn't really a thing anymore. OTL it took until the Ming era for most of it to be rebuilt.

China might be divided into three pieces - Jin, Song, Xia, or their successors - for much longer, with consequences for subsequent development of separate cultures/identities, especially in the Xia realms. Yunnan might also spend more time outside the Chinese sphere, which makes for some interesting things.

Baghdad surviving wouldn't really mean much in the short term; the Caliph is pretty much a figurehead by now outside of the city itself. In the longer term, an Islamic world with an autonomous caliphal city-state serving as a kind of cosmopolitan neutral-ish ground for scholarship and trade could develop in curious ways. Of more immediate concern is the survival of the Khwarezmid Empire. They might attempt to push into India, or into the Karakhitan realms, which would bring the Khwarezmians to the western edge of the Xia. The Empire might not last long after Muhammad II's death though.

 

[awesome]

Ghenghis Khan was already dead before the main attack on (Song) China.

yeah, read the post again, specifically the ideas portion. i never mentioned anything about him attacking the song. chinese isn't necessarily han.

Mongols being eventually coopted/absorbed by the Jin or Xia is a likely scenario, perhaps even rebelling/overthrowing the Jin and setting up their own dynasty afterwards. But by that point they would've been more Sinicised.

The Great Wall wasn't really a thing anymore. OTL it took until the Ming era for most of it to be rebuilt.

China might be divided into three pieces - Jin, Song, Xia, or their successors - for much longer, with consequences for subsequent development of separate cultures/identities, especially in the Xia realms. Yunnan might also spend more time outside the Chinese sphere, which makes for some interesting things.

Baghdad surviving wouldn't really mean much in the short term; the Caliph is pretty much a figurehead by now outside of the city itself. In the longer term, an Islamic world with an autonomous caliphal city-state serving as a kind of cosmopolitan neutral-ish ground for scholarship and trade could develop in curious ways. Of more immediate concern is the survival of the Khwarezmid Empire. They might attempt to push into India, or into the Karakhitan realms, which would bring the Khwarezmians to the western edge of the Xia. The Empire might not last long after Muhammad II's death though.

fair point on the wall, especially since the xia emperor would probably see the mongol tribes as his kinsmen, which would probably be a pretty big mistake, considering that genghis and his family didn't care.
russia also wouldn't be destroyed, so the tsardom would continue with business as usual.

 

[Domen]

I was talking of actual in the field divisions, not purely administrative ones.

I was talking about actual divisions in the field too. 7 Panzer Divisions, 4 Light Divisions and 4 Motorized Infantry Divisions were used by Germans in the invasion of Poland in 1939. I can even give you their strength with accuracy to one truck, one tank, one soldier and one motorcyle, etc., if you want.

syria had IVs until 1967 on the Golan Heights , mostly as static pillboxes and apparently they performed well.

Israel won the war of 1967 in less than 6 days so I don't think we can judge if they performed well during such a lightning-speed period.

But definitely their performance did not prolong the war by more than a couple of wars, if Israel won it in 6 days anyway.

Hitler honestly did not believe the UK and France would go to war over Poland.

Hitler =/= Germany.

He wasn't even a commander in chief of the German army in 1939 - 1940. Hitler became the commander in chief in late 1941 or early 1942 (after Moscow).

as Rommel's short encounter with a bunch of Mathildas in Belgium showed they in fact had inferior armour.

Was that in 1944 ??? Because I wrote that Mathildas were obsolete by 1944. By the way - armour is not everything.

he fact that they used their armour in numbers, not as an infantry supporting element as the Allies originally did.

The Allies already also used their armour in numbers - for example the French army had several Armoured Divisions in May 1940.

 

[Agent327]

I was talking about actual divisions in the field too. 7 Panzer Divisions, 4 Light Divisions and 4 Motorized Infantry Divisions were used by Germans in the invasion of Poland in 1939. I can even give you their strength with accuracy to one truck, one tank, one soldier and one motorcyle, etc., if you want.

I f you must. Meanwhile:

It is a myth that the German army in World War II was a mechanized juggernaut as a whole. In 1941, between 74 and 80 percent of their forces were not motorized, relying on railroad for rapid movement and on horse-drawn transport cross country. The percentage of motorization decreased thereafter.[5] In 1944 approximately 85 percent was not motorized.[6]

Hitler =/= Germany.

He wasn't even a commander in chief of the German army in 1939 - 1940. Hitler became the commander in chief in late 1941 or early 1942 (after Moscow).

That's kind of irrelevant, wouldn't you say? Hitler was the Führer, if he didn't agree with something he would issue a Führer Command to not make it happen if necessary. As regards military matters, basically the same applied. General staff would have meetings with Hitler present; if he didn't agree with a plan, it would not happen.

Was that in 1944 ??? Because I wrote that Mathildas were obsolete by 1944. By the way - armour is not everything.

No, I was speaking of Rommel's drive to the Channel in 1940.

The Allies already also used their armour in numbers - for example the French army had several Armoured Divisions in May 1940.

Again, I'm not speaking of numbers on paper, I am speaking of numbers in the field. Allied tanks were dispersed among the infantry - at least until they copied the German tactics in this regard. Total Allied tank numbers outnumbered German tank totals significantly, but they were using them ineffectively.

 

[Tee Kay]

fair point on the wall, especially since the xia emperor would probably see the mongol tribes as his kinsmen, which would probably be a pretty big mistake, considering that genghis and his family didn't care.
russia also wouldn't be destroyed, so the tsardom would continue with business as usual.

The Tartar Yoke was big part of the Russian national mythology. Not an expert in this matter but Russia would have developed very differently.

 

[sophie]

The Tartar Yoke was big part of the Russian national mythology. Not an expert in this matter but Russia would have developed very differently.

Definitely would have developed differently. The Tartars are probably the single most influential group in all of Russian History.

Now watch as a trained Russian Historian like wry comes in and trashes such a vastly sweeping statement.

 

[madviking]

cmon no russia without varangians

 

[Traitorfish]

I somehow read that as "vaginas". Which is technically true, but also a sign that I need a coffee.

 

[Mouthwash]

I somehow read that as "vaginas". Which is technically true, but also a sign that I need a coffee.

I'm not sure it's a coffee you need.

 

[Kyriakos]

I'm not sure it's a coffee you need.

You think he needs a Varangian then?

 

[madviking]

I somehow read that as "vaginas". Which is technically true, but also a sign that I need a coffee.

my avatar probably did not help.

I'm not sure it's a coffee you need.

something something about the other definition of coffee

 

[cybrxkhan]

I somehow read that as "vaginas". Which is technically true, but also a sign that I need a coffee.

I read it as Viagra.

 

[Domen]

In 1941, between 74 and 80 percent of their forces were not motorized, relying on railroad for rapid movement and on horse-drawn transport cross country. The percentage of motorization decreased thereafter.[5] In 1944 approximately 85 percent was not motorized.[6]

Yes in fact % of motorization was decreasing already since 1939 (not since 1941), because the Germans were creating new infantry divisions much faster than they were creating new motorized and armoured divisions.

It is a myth that the German army in World War II was a mechanized juggernaut as a whole.

NO army of World War II was a "mechanized juggernaut as a whole". All of them had mostly infantry + artillery.

And the German army was still more mechanized than vast majority of other armies of WW2.

The Red Army even had a lot of cavalry during entire war - more than the Germans.

That's kind of irrelevant, wouldn't you say? Hitler was the Führer, if he didn't agree with something he would issue a Führer Command to not make it happen if necessary. As regards military matters, basically the same applied. General staff would have meetings with Hitler present; if he didn't agree with a plan, it would not happen.

Maybe. But, you know, if Germans really "didn't expect" a major war before 1942, then it means that Germans were like people who are jumping from planes without parachutes and "don't expect death". Idiots.

 

[daft]

I somehow read that as "vaginas". Which is technically true, but also a sign that I need a coffee.

Stupendous!
Traitorfish never fails to deliver two things within his writings/posts: vast knowledge and/or an excellent dose of humour!

 

[daft]

Is the Crimean War an example of a conflict brought about only by the British Imperialistic Greed?
Any valid reasons for that war? (and the needless human casualties as a result of it)

 

[daft]

The infamous Black Plague did, at least, I dunno about the other ones.



Nubia was on and off independent of ancient Egypt for most of its early history, but other than some specialists its early history I believe is rather obscure. Eventually Nubia did conquer Egypt for a century or so, as TK said, from c. 750-650 BCE (I don't remember the exact dates) until it was driven out not by the native Egyptians, but the invading Assyrians. That said, Nubia, or Kush, rather, managed to survive as a reasonably strong kingdom - Alexander the Great and the Romans didn't conquer them, for instance - but eventually collapsed in the wake of the rising Axumite Kingdom (a proto-Ethiopia, I guess you can say). However, a few successor kingdoms arose from Kush, the three prominent ones being Alodia, Nobatia, and Makuria; not much is known about these, I think, the one most well-known would be Makuria. Anyways, these kingdoms survived into medieval times, particularly Makuria, which proved to be rather troublesome for the Arab Empire, enough that Makuria and the Caliphate negotiated a longstanding treaty of sorts known as the Baqt. Makuria began collapsing in the 14th century from civil war and foreign invasion, though it might've survived in some form or another into the 16th century or so.

Thus, regardless of whether or not you count Makuria as a late iteration of ancient Nubia/Kush, Nubia was a reasonably powerful, independent state that survived for quite a long time. Some people I suppose see Nubia as a pale imitation of Egypt, but that'd be like saying Japan is a pale imitation of China.

As for Numidia I believe they were independent for a while.



(Anyone else feel free to correct anything I said above, my knowledge on this is kind of hazy at the moment.)

much appreciated!

 

[daft]

Did the US compensate Japan (enough) for the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Do you think any compensation is sufficient for those kinds of inhumane acts?