History Reversal

[Traitorfish]

I remember, in Junior High School, back in the late '80's, reading in a World Book Encyclopedia at my local public library (back when to had to physically travel to a library and read a physical book to read an encyclopedia, because things like Wikipedia, or even an Internet of any meaningful robustness and approachable to most, just didn't exist) in it's 1988 edition, the article on the Soviet Union (yes, it was THAT long ago...), in the national history sub-article spoke of how, because of how back-and-forth historical influences had affected the region, it was "neither considered a purely a Eastern or Western nation." Although I am not sure if this still reflects the historical consensus on Russia, I've heard no academic update on that status by historians either way since.

The historical consensus is mostly that "Western" and "Eastern" aren't very useful ways to describe societies, whatever Paradox games has to say about it.

But, yeah, it's weird how a lot of Western writing on Russia accepted in a weirdly uncritical way the basically pretty ridiculous claims of the Slavophile movement that Russia was a sort of far-flung outpost of Mongolia. Partly I suppose the Slavophiles themselves were reflecting back the Western European perception that Russia was basically Mongolia. Is there a term meaning "vicious cycle", but specifically where everyone involved gets dumber?

 

[Lexicus]

The historical consensus is mostly that "Western" and "Eastern" aren't very useful ways to describe societies, whatever Paradox games has to say about it.

But, yeah, it's weird how a lot of Western writing on Russia accepted in a weirdly uncritical way the basically pretty ridiculous claims of the Slavophile movement that Russia was a sort of far-flung outpost of Mongolia. Partly I suppose the Slavophiles themselves were reflecting back the Western European perception that Russia was basically Mongolia. Is there a term meaning "vicious cycle", but specifically where everyone involved gets dumber?

Ever since I learned about the actual Golden Horde I always found the persistence of these "Tatar yoke" tropes about Russia to be sort of interesting, the frequency and persistence with which they're invoked always seemed way out of proportion to the actual importance/long-term influence of that historical period.

 

[Dachs]

Is there a term meaning "vicious cycle", but specifically where everyone involved gets dumber?

The Sonderweg is a similar idea.

 

[Patine]

Ever since I learned about the actual Golden Horde I always found the persistence of these "Tatar yoke" tropes about Russia to be sort of interesting, the frequency and persistence with which they're invoked always seemed way out of proportion to the actual importance/long-term influence of that historical period.

It basically came down to Ivan III refusing, one day, to pay the same annual tribute to the Khan in Astrakhan that Moscow had for around 150 or so years, after calculating the atrophied military and political clout the Golden Horde still had, and thus getting away with it.

 

[red_elk]

Mongolian invasion and the "yoke" had significant influence on Russian culture. May be comparable to the Byzantinian influence.

And of course there are plenty of examples of Christianity declining greatly (if not disappearing) after non-Christian conquest; think of Christianity in Central Asia and the Middle East after Tamerlane, for example. There are also cases of Christianity being successfully suppressed by non-Christian authorities (as opposed to invaders), e.g. tenth-century China or seventeenth-century Japan.

I remember reading Gumilyov, who considered Mongolian defeat at Ain Jalut and subsequent failure of the "Yellow Crusade" as great tragedy of Middle East.

 

[Traitorfish]

Mongolian invasion and the "yoke" had significant influence on Russian culture. May be comparable to the Byzantinian influence.

The Byzantines gave the Russians a religion and an alphabet. Did the Mongols really have that fundamental an influence?

 

[red_elk]

The Byzantines gave the Russians a religion and an alphabet. Did the Mongols really have that fundamental an influence?

It's debatable and difficult to compare, but the influence was significant. In customs, clothes, trade, architecture, language, food, etc.
About 20% of words in modern Russian language have Turkic origin.

 

[Patine]

The Byzantines gave the Russians a religion and an alphabet. Did the Mongols really have that fundamental an influence?

As far as I know, only the fundamentals of Cossack cavalry organization and tactics, and even then the Russian and Ukrainian Cossacks evolved from the Mongol-based origins strongly (arguably immensely) by the time of Russia's debut as a Great Power of Europe in the Great Northern War against Sweden.

 

[Lohrenswald]

The Byzantines gave the Russians a religion and an alphabet. Did the Mongols really have that fundamental an influence?

mongols taught the russians not to shave

 

[Patine]

mongols taught the russians not to shave

So who re-introduced the lesson of shaving, and seemingly in a real hurry, when the Russian Revolution hit? From all the pictures, the big beards disappeared practically instantly at about that time. Even today, outside Orthodox clergy and Northern Caucasus Islamists, almost every man you see in the former Soviet States is immaculately, even severely, shaven and groomed.

 

[red_elk]

I doubt shaving habits had anything to do with Mongols or Bolsheviks
There is a popular story about Peter the Great forcing Boyars to shave their beards off, as part of his westernization reforms.

 

[Yeekim]

Allegedly, this very Russian exterior design trend has its roots in a fact that the color blue was holy to Mongols and offered a degree of protection against the house getting torched.
No idea if true or not.

 

[Dachs]

mongols taught the russians not to shave

also a Byzantine thing

 

[Leifmk]

Well the Vikings did convert to Christianity but it was a slow process.
If the vikings controlled more Christian lands they would have had more exposure to Christianity.

Also the only way "Vikings" would conquer huge parts of Europe would be to take over more territories Normandy-style, i.e. come in as the new ruling class on top of a pre-existing social structure, and end up almost completely assimilated in a couple of generations. Just weren't enough Scandinavians to do anything more than that.

 

[inthesomeday]

Welcome to my alt history channel. Today we’ll be answering the question: what if the Vikings conquered the world in 900 CE?

Well, today we’d have a much different world. Everybody would worship Odin and speak Norwegian. They would eat rotten fish and pay tribute to the King in Oslo. Here’s a photoshop of a Kalmar flag on the moon instead of a US flag.

Thanks so much for watching my video leave a like!

 

[red_elk]

mongols taught the russians not to shave

also a Byzantine thing

I doubt "not to shave" is something which requires learning, though

 

[inthesomeday]

I doubt "not to shave" is something which requires learning, though

First the Varangians had to teach them to grow beards.

 

[Lone Wolf]

It's important to recognise that the empire did not become Christian in the fourth century as a result of some benign osmosis or natural change, with everyone converting happily in view of Christianity's philosophical sophistication or moral appeal. It may have been like that in some cases, but it was also a bitter, protracted struggle in which Christianity got the upper hand because Christian emperors - particularly in the 350s and 90s - forced the closure of temples, the banning of sacrifices, and the suppression of priests, which eventually turned into the execution of religious dissenters under Justinian. Now one might well ask why these measures succeeded where the similar measures that pagan emperors had taken against Christianity in previous centuries - on a larger and more brutal scale, over a longer period - did not. But I'm sure that Christianity's victory over paganism within the Roman world would never have been as complete without them.

Small bump, but this reply reminded me of Kaldellis' Late Antiquity article.