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History Reversal

Discussion in 'World History' started by formerdc81, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    The historical consensus is mostly that "Western" and "Eastern" aren't very useful ways to describe societies, whatever Paradox games has to say about it.

    But, yeah, it's weird how a lot of Western writing on Russia accepted in a weirdly uncritical way the basically pretty ridiculous claims of the Slavophile movement that Russia was a sort of far-flung outpost of Mongolia. Partly I suppose the Slavophiles themselves were reflecting back the Western European perception that Russia was basically Mongolia. Is there a term meaning "vicious cycle", but specifically where everyone involved gets dumber?
     
  2. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Ever since I learned about the actual Golden Horde I always found the persistence of these "Tatar yoke" tropes about Russia to be sort of interesting, the frequency and persistence with which they're invoked always seemed way out of proportion to the actual importance/long-term influence of that historical period.
     
  3. Dachs

    Dachs Emissary of Hell

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    The Sonderweg is a similar idea.
     
  4. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    It basically came down to Ivan III refusing, one day, to pay the same annual tribute to the Khan in Astrakhan that Moscow had for around 150 or so years, after calculating the atrophied military and political clout the Golden Horde still had, and thus getting away with it.
     
  5. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Mongolian invasion and the "yoke" had significant influence on Russian culture. May be comparable to the Byzantinian influence.

    I remember reading Gumilyov, who considered Mongolian defeat at Ain Jalut and subsequent failure of the "Yellow Crusade" as great tragedy of Middle East.
     
  6. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    The Byzantines gave the Russians a religion and an alphabet. Did the Mongols really have that fundamental an influence?
     
  7. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    It's debatable and difficult to compare, but the influence was significant. In customs, clothes, trade, architecture, language, food, etc.
    About 20% of words in modern Russian language have Turkic origin.
     
  8. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    As far as I know, only the fundamentals of Cossack cavalry organization and tactics, and even then the Russian and Ukrainian Cossacks evolved from the Mongol-based origins strongly (arguably immensely) by the time of Russia's debut as a Great Power of Europe in the Great Northern War against Sweden.
     
  9. Lohrenswald

    Lohrenswald nIGHTMARE

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    mongols taught the russians not to shave
     
  10. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    So who re-introduced the lesson of shaving, and seemingly in a real hurry, when the Russian Revolution hit? From all the pictures, the big beards disappeared practically instantly at about that time. Even today, outside Orthodox clergy and Northern Caucasus Islamists, almost every man you see in the former Soviet States is immaculately, even severely, shaven and groomed.
     
  11. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    I doubt shaving habits had anything to do with Mongols or Bolsheviks :)
    There is a popular story about Peter the Great forcing Boyars to shave their beards off, as part of his westernization reforms.
     
  12. Yeekim

    Yeekim Chieftain

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    Allegedly, this very Russian exterior design trend has its roots in a fact that the color blue was holy to Mongols and offered a degree of protection against the house getting torched.
    No idea if true or not.
     

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