Discussion in '[MAC+WIN] Civ4 - History Rewritten' started by Xyth, Feb 9, 2010.
This could also just be an act of supreme stupidity
I like it, done. Glad we found a place for that.
Restricting it to enemy territory was a precaution against things such as Raging Barbarians. What I will do instead is exclude combat with barbarians and animals.
I'll stick with a flat +5 happiness in the capital for the moment, in the interest of less coding/testing to do and actually getting 0.9.4 finished. If seems to be causing problems we can revisit it later.
The Carrack has been redesigned as a Galleon replacement in 0.9.4. It carries less cargo (2) but is available earlier (Compass) and can still enter rival territory. I moved it as unlike the other Caravel replacements it was quite anachronistic to have it available so early.
No, that would be too much. You can still send a military escort or worker - you just send them in an additional waka.
There will always be some things more powerful than others on certain maptypes but no need to make a situation worse if it can be avoided. I'd rather weaken the Dike.
Oh I don't like the Civ3 mechanic, it was frustrating as hell at times. I was just saying that it achieves its goal better than the Civ4 mechanic in several situations.
Leaving routes pillage-able is a good idea. I should be able to make that work.
I assume it would be over in the Creation and Customization forum with all the other mods. If we do get it I'll still keep this thread alive so that Mac Civ4 folk can easily find the mod and get support.
When you install Civ4 and its expansions it creates its folder in Program Files that contains all the core game stuff that you normally do not touch. Each also creates a similarly named folder somewhere in Documents that contain stuff like savegames, logs, and setting files. The latter is what you're seeing; it's normal for many of those folders in there to be empty.
Normally mods are meant to be placed in the Mods folder found at that second location but, due to a design flaw in BTS, mods like History Rewritten that have certain changes made to the interface and/or mapscripts will not function from there. They will function direct from the Mod folder in the first location though.
I believe Windows' search feature avoids looking in Program Files by default, you'll need to browse for it manually.
And it works! Thanks for putting up with my below-average computer skills.
Hey Xyth, I just wanted you to know how stoked I am about 9.4 to come out. Awesome job so far, man.
I left the .fpks intact and created an additional unit folder within the art folder. And you're right, the HR_Units.fpk has only 282 MB…
Should I unpack the .fpk-file, add my files there and repack it, then? (Answer will be yes, I guess.)
Health is very sparse on higher difficulties when Smoking Huts expire and many production alleviating industrial buildings become available. Still, your food rich cities will grow despite huge shortcomings of health grow really big (33 pop, and such). The health deficit doesn't hurt you much, though, and that's something I have to get used to. You know, as a PAE player, I hold my breath, if I see a face… Maybe there should be some reason to care more about unhealthiness?
No problem, I hope you enjoy it and let me know if you have any further problems or comments.
Thanks! I hope to have it finished fairly soon.
Actually I'd recommend unpacking HR_Units.fpk and leaving it unpacked, merging your files in. It will make the mod take considerably longer to load but it should reduce MAFs a bit.
In PAE unhealthiness can cause disease right? I'd be interested to hear what you like and dislike about PAE's health/disease system. Any mechanics or ideas worth borrowing?
A short post, this time, I promise:
Well, most of the time, you use Wakas just as you would Galleys: to colonize islands connected by coast, or launch naval invasions in the Ancient and Classical Eras. The problem is that Wakas are clearly inferior to Galleys for these purposes: you need twice as many ships to transport the same number of troops! I wonder if it would be better to redesign the Waka as a Trireme-replacement. It could keep its single cargo slot and ability to enter Ocean squares at Navigation; but Polynesian players would have the option of building Galleys if they weren't planning to cross oceans.
Fair point. If you are looking to weaken the Dike, I suggest you reinstate the river requirement. At the moment, Dikes can be build in riverside or coastal cities while Levees can only be built in the former. Alternatively, you could replace +1 hammer on water tiles with +1 hammer on Coast tiles.
Shale Plants: Speaking of UBs, I previously suggested you redesign the Shale Plant as a Factory or Industrial Park UB, so that Japanese players can have their pick of the five different power plant options in HR. Can you squeeze this into 0.9.4? (As an aside, I want to review all the UBs at some point. Many of them are very bland and the same bonuses are often repeated multiple times. As a group, I'm sure we can come up with better ideas. But that can wait.)
Extended Golden Ages: The math on these is sometimes wrong. On Normal Speed, Golden Ages last for 8 turns. With the Mausoleum of Mausolus, they last for 8 + 50% = 12 turns. For Humane leaders, they last for 8 + 100% = 16 turns. When a Humane leader builds the Mausoleum, Golden Ages should last for 8 + 150% = 20 turns. Instead, they last for (8 + 100%) + 50% = 24 turns. No other calculation in HR works like that.
1. I like the + on relations for the Diplomatic trait.
I was thinking that it might work better if somehow you got a plus +1 at intervals of time. +1 initially and an additional +1 every new era might be too much. Maybe +1 initially and an additional +1 every other era might be better.
Just a thought.
2. Aqueducts are defined as large conduits that carry water.
While we usually think of them as delivering water for drinking, the water can be used for anything.
In ancient Persia, before Christ, they had an elaborate underground system of bringing water for irrigation from long distances, which we now call Qanats.
So I still think having Aqueducts with the irrigation ability would be fine.
Having a special building for the Persians, Qanat, which had this ability and maybe something else extra, to replace Aqueduct, might be another way to go, at some point in the future.
3. Your description of trading on the Eurasian continent (on the Earth map) points out that BTS and the current HR are somewhat ahistorical.
China traded with Rome through intermediaries rather than directly as they can in BTS or HR.
In any case, this has nothing to do with Caravels being able to cross oceans. This can all be done overland or via galleys.
Currently in HR, caravels can cross oceans. When you contact someone this way you can not trade resources. You can not send military forces or colonist across the ocean. What you can do is explore, spread religions and trade technology (if tech trading is allowed.) So there is only limited potential interaction prior to Compass.
While Navigation might be a little early, waiting for any contact until Compass is way too long from a game standpoint.
Eventually having Seas as well as Oceans would help a lot!
I do not know why they got rid of this.
Much of the delay in commerce across the oceans was ignorance of anything worthwhile on the other side, combined with the hazards.
In a game of Civilization, the player(s) know there is something worthwhile across the Ocean.
While I did not like it, giving Caravels a chance to sink if ending their turn in the Ocean prior to Compass, might be a good quick compromise. I would say 1/3 chance of sinking would accomplish your goal.
This is History Rewritten.
Humans colonized Australia about 45,000 years ago. So early humans had sailing which could cross large bodies of water, granted not oceans. As shown by the Polynesians, humans had the capabilities to cross oceans before Christ. Here we are talking planting colonies.
About 2500 years ago the Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa.
About 1100 years ago the Vikings crossed the Atlantic Ocean.
There may have been earlier (perhaps one way) trips that we do not know about. In any case, there was lots of early capability to sail well.
Small cities suffer from leprosy and lose population. Above pop 9, unhealthiness starts to cause plague (resolved as a "building"). Buildings like leprosy colonies, aqueducts, baths, sewers, and such, help to add to a decrease of probability, that a full scale (and boarder crossing contagious!) plague will break out. If that happens, a scull appears above your city and the cottages around, and, well, you're tempted to reload in that case
Troops and unused Great People will suffer damage and eventually die, if you don't move them in a safe corner of your plague struck empire in time. Cities will be dropping to pop 1, cottages shrinking. Cards are reshuffled, and the former Tech leader, while recovering from plague and nearly defenseless in that situation, might be taken over by a weaker neighbor, if the latter takes the risk to invade without being sure, whether a city out of his visible range still got the plague, that could reinfect cities, that seem to have recovered.
For casual gamers and people new to Civ, this may to be a little too much, at times, but if you're in command of the avoid-growth-button in your city screen, you don't see any diseases in your game at all, unless your neighbor is a pig and infects you. From your designer's perspective, it depends, how much emphasis you put on the immersive historical simulation aspect of Civ, as opposed to balance, gameplay and "justice", since everyone knows, how epidemics changed the course of history.
While that might be excessive, some kind of 'disease' mechanic might be worthwhile: it'd keep the game from being too heavily dominated by supercities. That's a job for 0.9.5 or, more likely, 1.0, though...
Australia was colonized from New Guinea, something like 100 miles away- roughly one tile of water in Civ.
Absolutely- and they did it by island-hopping.
There was, but it didn't take on geopolitical significance anywhere in the world until 1000 AD or so, except in Polynesia. At some point, we do have to at least nod in the direction of historical accuracy, rewrites or no. Otherwise, we're stuck with questions like "why couldn't a Neolithic/Bronze Age civilization invent gunpowder?"
I'm okay with the Polynesians having a significant strength and a significant drawback in the Waka. In it's current 0.9.4 form I don't view either as too strong/weak. It just means that if you play the Polynesians you play a bit differently than you would the other 48 civs. If it does need further strengthening/weakening I'd rather do so via cost or some other attribute.
I checked the xml for the Dike and it seems to already have a river requirement in HR. It's possible that I changed this at some point in the past but I don't remember doing so. Coast tiles would be an ideal solution but sadly the xml doesn't support it.
It's on my "todo in 0.9.4 if I get time" list. I think I'd rather give the Japanese an entirely new UB, the Shale Plant is a bit uninspiring and doesn't fit well with the way BTS and HR handle power plants. Any suggestions?
Yup, UBs need a review at some point for sure. UUs too.
That would actually be extremely difficult to code, there are very few parts of the diplomacy system I'm able to mod.
I'll talk more about Wells/Aqueducts/etc once I've got these traits finished. I have a few ideas but I want to try them out before going into details.
I'm going to re-examine this concept in 0.9.5. I think it may have some merit if done well and I may have found a tool that solves a lot of the technical issues.
Regardless of whether it's an effective idea or not I cannot code it a way that won't cripple the AI.
Actually humans reached Australia by land and a bit of island hopping. At the time Australia, Tasmania and New Guinea were one landmass called Sahul and much of the Indonesian archipelago was connected by land bridges because the sea level was much lower.
The problem is that the Austronesians (the broader ethnolinguistic group to which Polynesians belong) are the only pre-Medieval people to have made transoceanic voyages. They colonized the Pacific and even Madagascar. No other civilization did anything similar until well over a thousand years later. At least not successfully.
To me it makes sense to prevent transoceanic sailing until the vast majority of civilizations were able to do it and make a special exception for the Polynesians than it does to allow all of them to get do it a thousand or more years early.
Compare it with gunpowder: it's not as extreme an example but the Chinese were using gunpowder weapons as early as the 800s. It wouldn't make sense to have it available for all civilizations that early though. A better example would be steel: the Indians were making genuine steel weapons around 300 BCE but once again, they are the exception not the norm.
They did but this is was entirely coastal sailing.
This is probably the first genuine case of transoceanic sailing other than Austronesian peoples. Though they did travel via Iceland and Greenland so it's a bit of a borderline case.
I agree that historicity needs to be balanced against gameplay. Once again, I think this is a case of Archipelago maps vs. more continental style maps, a balance issue that seems to pop up a lot lately. Ultimately I want a solution that works for both without being historically unreasonable.
I certainly wouldn't want anything nearly as punitive as that but I like the idea of a disease mechanic that can occur if unhealthiness gets out of hand. Definitely something to explore in the future.
What about a Geisha House UB, which replaces the stadium?
If I could throw out some suggestions for new civs and wonders to be added or ignored at your discretion (I think the new leader trait opens up 17 new leader slots).
Sydney Opera House
Baths of Caracalla
Hippodrome (I'd like to see this be a world wonder)
Also, I'm a pretty bad programmer, but I'm a good writer, so if you want me to write any civilopedia entries, just let me know.
Wonders seem fine, except the Hippodrome, there is no major Hippodrome.
Those civs are kind weaksauce, either very short lived (Gran Columbia), too small (Minoans), or the area is already covered fine (Bengali)
Continuing in my irritable mood
Why is Asatru a religion? All we really know is "chieftains also had some sort of role as priests, and that pagan worship involved the sacrifice of horses"
Why does rice only get one food from farms instead of two like corn and wheat?
Coal was used quite a bit prior to when it is discovered in game, likewise with oil
The Distillery seems to fit the 14th century better than where it is now
The tech Dogma is desperately in need of help:
the Holy Office was founded in 1542 which doesn't mesh with the pedia entry, also I can't figure out the reason for the unhealth.
To mesh better with the time and the vibe of the tech Aquinas' "Clearly the person who accepts the Church as an infallible guide will believe whatever the Church teaches" fits better.
What exactly is the tech Evangelism for?
Why does Feminism give a bonus to improvements? By the time Feminism mattered infrastructure was built.
Under flight could we have an older looking aircraft carrier?
Please change Radio's blurb, reading "...Marconi's invention of the radio in 1896..." makes my head hurt
Call it punitive, psychic, sick, I like this kind of "extremeness" (and certainly not because "extreme" is always good). It conveys a sense of personal handwriting. There's always a place for an amount of idiosyncrasies in a mod. I think, a mod is coming alive more from individual vision rather than democratic mediation. (Well, both
Regarding the modern part of the Tech Tree: It looks like Ecology and Pharmaceuticals could switch positions. Secondly, the offshore platforms com a little early with Refining. Perhaps two more Tech requirements would delay them a bit (unless it was intended for balance reasons?).
Most modern units could require more Tech requirements, too (like I suggested in a few postings earlier). That's just my personal taste, but it's feeling a little odd, if you can build artillery and tanks long before airships and submarines, if you left out Pneumatics and Radio.
Hmm. I'm not convinced. Almost every other UU is unambiguously stronger than the unit it replaces. The Aztec Jaguar, which trades 1 base strength for number of smaller advantages - a free Woodsman I promotion, no resource requirement, and a slightly lower cost - is the only exception. (An aside: While checking this in the Civilopedia, I discovered that a number of hyperlinks that should lead to the Aztec Jaguar lead to the Jaguar animal instead. Maybe the unit should be officially renamed the Jaguar Warrior?) Anyway, I suspect the Jaguar is the least favourite UU around; when I play the Aztecs, I always prefer Axemen to Jaguars. It would be a pity if the Waka met with the same fate. That said, reducing the cost of the Waka (from, say, 50 hammers to 40) would be better than nothing.
Well, it doesn't seem to be working as intended. I've attached a screenshot of a test game as proof. I started a game as the Dutch on the Western Europe map and gave myself two extra settlers and the Hydraulics technology via Worldbuilder. Amsterdam is riverside and coastal; Utrecht is riverside but not coastal; and The Hague is coastal but not riverside. As you can see, all three cities can build a Dike.
Well, if you want to replace the Shale Plant entirely, I'll be sure to offer some suggestions as part of a full review of UBs, whenever that happens. You might as well leave it alone for now. I have to say, the list of things slated for review is growing rather long: GP tech preferences, resource percent bonuses, corporation mechanics, espionage mechanics, Siege units, Skirmisher units, Wonders, the Ancient Age tech tree, the Labour Unions-to-Explosives branch, now UUs and UBs...
Well, I'm just trying to come up with places that have distinct cultures from their surrounding area and/or have a distinct geographic location. I agree with you on the Minoans and Gran Colombia, but I would say Bangladesh is a region that is historically different from the rest of India in a fairly significant way. And there's only a few African and Native American civs, which I feel leaves a great deal of the map unfilled... Let's say Iriquoisan culture dominates the Northeastern United States and Siouan culture the Midwest, the Southeast, Southwest, and Northwest are still unoccupied. Same with my ideas for African civs. The Ghanians have a long history in the area and are a distinct culture and ethnic group from the Saharan tribes. Nor can this group of people be classified amongst the Zulu or Swahili tribes. Same with the Kongolese.
And this is a major hippodrome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippodrome_of_Constantinople
I cannot remember, but that sounds reasonable- my point is that even today, with higher sea levels, the gaps crossed to settle Australia were purely coastal by Civ standards.
I totally agree, as was kind of my point.
That's what I mean by making gestures in the direction of historical accuracy- sure, any random culture could have invented gunpowder before the wheel, or interoceanic sailing before bronze. But if few or no societies did, it makes more sense to grant the ability to those cultures as a 'unique power' (implemented via the unique unit or building) than to make it potentially available for everyone. Otherwise there's simply no balance, and the quasi-historical feel of Civ winds up totally broken because the whole thing is a big old pot of anachronism stew.
We could also, in the same token, say, give the Chinese a unique arquebusier unit that becomes available with Machinery in place of their Chu Ko Nu- I'm not proposing that mind you but it's not completely unreasonable to give them gunpowder units earlier than anyone else.
Archipelagoes favor thalassocracies- so yes, civilizations with inherent naval bonuses are favored over civilizations with only land bonuses, especially land bonuses that are relatively less useful on small landmasses (if any exist- I'm having trouble thinking of them).
I'm not sure there's any way to fix that, save by stripping all the naval bonuses out of all civilizations, which is punitive and bad for other maps where naval power is more balanced with land power.
And, of course, obviously something like the Great Lighthouse is vastly more useful on an Archipelago map, while something like the Sistine Chapel is far more powerful on a Pangaea map.
Adding more civilizations than the 50 in play already would weigh down the engine, according to Xyth. We might reshuffle a few slots, but I don't think we're going to see the total going up to 60 or 70.
Hey, that's MY turf! [glares]
The one in Constantinople seems to be the obvious candidate- but how big was it, relative to other major urban sports arenas in other parts of the world? Maybe it should be a national wonder that boosts happiness in that city or something, instead.
To take another example, the Colosseum in Rome is famous, and the largest of its kind in the Roman world, but that doesn't mean it's unique in the sense that a world wonder would be.
I'm inclined to agree on some- I understand the desire to expand coverage of North America and Africa, but the sad reality is that North America was still at the level of Neolithic villages (except for the Mound Builders of the Mississippi) when Europeans arrived and more or less permanently aborted the independent development of the region.
We don't have any civilizations from Siberia or Australia either (unless you count the Polynesians as 'Australians'). There's a reason for that- the rise of civilization in those areas didn't creat a big enough history to supply us with the level of detail needed to make multiple highly distinct cultures from them that don't all have essentially the same gameplay flavor.
Probably because while the practice of Norse religion is not well understood, its mythology is, and is a major iconic ur-mythos in Europe. Much the same can be said for druidism, after all.
What really drives this, I think, is the desire to create options for religious faith in the game that aren't just the stock ones that came out of the Middle East and India that dominate the modern world. That means going to the traditional faiths of various societies, and while Asatru is a minor 'traditional faith' by the standards of global history, I don't think there's anything wrong with giving it a place there.
Yes, but the scale of its application was such that it didn't decisively affect the world economy- ancient peoples used oil, but not on a massive scale.
Now, you might be justified, for oil, in making it 'discovered' in ancient times but making wells unavailable until the industrial era. But since coal (like uranium and aluminum) are harvested by mines, there's no way to stop a pre-modern culture from harvesting them for massive (ahistorically valuable) resource bonuses if they're visible in the early game.
Where is it again?
Witch burnings and genocidal prosecution of deviant religious minorities are a steady, running sore in population demographics? A small one, granted, but then pre-industrial smithies weren't all that bad for your health either.
Or if we wanted to get real specific, we could go for the sudden decline in the popularity of bathing that roughly coincided with the Counter-Reformation... but that might be a bit silly.
One key premise is that it frees up women for the workforce when their time was previously underutilized* increasing the 'efficiency' of civilization. The unfortunate problem is that yes, by the time the modern era rolls around in Civ you aren't building a lot more terrain improvements. Dunno what to do about that.
Maybe feminism could grant bonuses to civics? And it should probably grant them under more than one type of civic- the USSR was pretty much on the same track regarding the liberation of women as the US, if not ahead of it, even though the two societies would share no or nearly no civics if modeled in Civ terms.
*I am not entirely sure this is true, in that women in pre-modern times were very busy and I doubt their time was underutilized even if they were housewives, as someone would still have had to do all that work even if it was being shared on an eual basis. But I see the argument and it certainly grows more compelling when seen in 20th century terms.
Oooh. Interesting. Although... I don't know. It would look out of place in a 'end of Modern' navy dominated by missile cruisers and attack submarines. So would the Cruiser (Pallada! ), but I already advocate making those go obsolete with the invention of the missile cruiser.
I've given a lot of thought to the question of which new civilizations, if any, should be introduced to History Rewritten. My suggestions are listed by region: in each case, a top pick, an alternate, and any notable runners-up, along with a brief explanation and some possible leader choices. I'm not sure what criteria you had in mind, Xyth, but I took my cues from this thread. I was looking for civilizations that:
made a major contribution to human society, whether cultural, technological, or military;
were independent or self-governing for at least part of their history;
are sufficiently well-known that a leader, city list, unique unit, and unique building can be chosen; and
have the least overlap of geography and culture with existing civilizations.
Naturally, every suggested civilization did not meet each of the four requirements. Here they are, all the same, from west to east:
Top Pick: Quebec Just as America represents the most successful British colony in the New World, so would Quebec represent the culture and achievements of the French colonists who arrived in Quebec, Acadia, and Louisiana in the 17th and 18th centuries. (This civilization should not be seen as a stand in for either the modern province of Quebec or Canada in general.) French Canadians were the first to colonize most of eastern Canada and much of the central United States, including Mississippi, Missouri, and Illinois. As fur traders and missionaries, they enjoyed better relations with Native Americans than other Europeans; and they retained their cultural traditions after the conquest of New France, helping secure responsible government for Canada. Their leaders could include explorer and navigator Jacques Cartier and soldier and founding father Samuel de Champlain.
Alternate: the Inuit The Inuit emerged from Alaska in around 1000 AD and expanded east across northern Canada to Greenland, and west to Siberia. (These regions are all underrepresented in HR; it has no truly Arctic civilization.) Though their communities remained small, the Inuit conducted extensive trade with Native Americans living in more temperate climates, as well as visiting Norsemen and European colonists. Inuit leaders are not well known; my favorites are both women: diplomat and missionary Mikak, and shaman and poetess Uvavnuk.
Runner Up: the Haida The Iroquois live in the Great Lakes region and the Sioux live in the Great Plains. The Haida would be a West Coast civilization. Artisans, navigators, merchants and slavers, the Haida are also credited with the introduction of the totem pole.
Top Pick: Austria Europe is already well-represented among existing civilizations; with both Germany and Hungary present, why add Austria? Because the Hapsburg dynasty played a major role in European and by extension world history, and it is a poor fit for Germany. (As it stands, Bismarck, who was determined to exclude Austria from the modern German state, will found Vienna and Prague before Berlin and Konigsberg.) Austria can lay claim to Maximilian I, along with Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I and statesman and diplomat Klemens von Metternich. Under their leadership, the Austrian Empire waged several wars against the Ottoman Turks, laid claim to the title of Holy Roman Empire, fought in the Napoleonic Wars, and established the Concert of Europe.
Alternate: Bulgaria HR lacks a dedicated Balkan civilization. Bulgaria seemed the most prominent nation among many others, with a history stretching back to the arrival of Bulgar tribes. Prominent Bulgarian leaders include Simeon "the Great", Tsar of the First Bulgarian Empire, who oversaw the Golden Age of Bulgarian culture; and Ivan Asen II, under whose rule the Second Bulgarian Empire became the dominant power in the Balkans.
Runner Up: None. Or rather, none in particular. The Etruscans fall under the shadow of Rome; at that level of detail, the Spartans, the Athenians, and the Macedonians could all claim civilization status. The Minoans were by all accounts a wealthy Bronze Age people, but little else is known about them.
Africa and Asia-Pacific regions to follow.
Separate names with a comma.