Hitler??

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Hitler as leaderhead for a WW2 Scenario?
See no problems with that.

I mean honestly, I never heard of "bismark" until I bought this game. I head of everyone else but him, and it's weird, because they are afraid to add the most known German ruler because of controversy.

Set aside the fact that I'd bet you had never heard of Catherine either...that nicely summs up the dilemma.
What do we want?

a) The 'greatest' leader of a nation
or
b) The best-know leader of a nation in the US.

I'm pretty sure Firaxis is smart enough/ T2 is greedy enough to focus on a). Even when Civ3 came out, the markets outside the English speaking world weren't as important than today. And if the German or French localization was screwed up majorly...blame ATARI.

Well, Charlemagne was a French man, also Holy Roman Emperor, who conquered a lot for his country that was in present day France. I don't think you can be too detailed about "French and Franks." I don't think the Franks were Germanic (I may be wrong), but Charlemange sounds pretty French to me.

You don't expect me to stay quiet here?
I *hate* that Charlemagne in the English language. Why do you call a Germanic emperor who spoke German, had his pseudo-capital in Germany, spent most of his time in Germany and is burried in Germany by his French name? And not simply Charles the Great?
And, for consistency, call his main residence by the French name (Aix-la-Chapelle)?

I'd have less problems with that if it wouldn't result in exactly what you've proven again: Most people see Charles as a Frenchman. He even ended as French MGL...
Now, I'm not saying he is a German Emperor. But, he still deserves to be considered German or even Belgish before French.
End of rant.

And, pleeease - no Frederic II of Prussia. That was a Prussian king, he really did nothing for Germany as a whole. A local ruler (albeit an outstanding one). Would you ever consider a state governor as American leader?

The historically best choice for the German leader would be Emperor Frederic II, called 'stupor mundi'. A Stauffer. But, this won't happen ever - he is too unknown in the US. So Bismarck is a viable alternative.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Well, as I said, the real problem would be to have just Hitler as option when playing Germany.

That's unacceptable to German players.

On the other hand, if you could choose one of several leaders, as it is implied in Civ4 (28 leaders, 19 civs), then having Hitler just as an option isn't so bad.

 

[dc82]

Mao was neither progressive nor opened China to the world for the very reasons you stated, his failed revolutions.(great leap, etc). Dieng was the one to introduce free market reforms. All Mao did was create the Red Gaurds and generally cause havoc within China.

no i think u're missing what i'm saying - plenty of mao's "reforms" were utter failures - but at the same time, mao's credited with other "successes" in china, such us bring up the literacy rate, he brought china in the world scene from being a semi-conquered nation, to an important player, esp. in the cold war. don't forget, he also was able to win over the nationalists to begin w/ and gain support from esp. the peasantry during the civil war following wwii, but in the early economic reforms (before deng's policies) did bring up china's gdp rate as well as raise standards of living and literacy rates (by simplifying the written chinese language). he is also credited for opening china to the us in 1972, with the meeting with richard nixon. in fact, china not only opened to the us, but retained relations (however sour) with the ussr, and became part of the united nations (taking taiwan's place as the recognized china)!

there's no doubt of the importance of deng's reforms that drastically changed china - they were defintiely far better than mao's later failed reforms as well. but that's not to say some of mao's earlier policies weren't successful as well. even deng himself said that mao's policies as 7 parts right, 3 parts wrong.

mao did far more than just create red guards - he did lay the foundations for a new china, good and bad. of course that's not to say mao isn't also responsible for a lot of the chaos and deaths that occured, but then again that's my point to begin with, mao's contraversial, seen as a mixed person - having both good and bad things associated with him.

don't forget as well, in ur simplified view of the chinese leaders that deng xiaoping is also responsible for the tiananmen square crackdown and the chaos that took place then. of course it's no comparison to the cultural revolution, but deng had his negative points as well.

 

[azzaman333]

i wonder whether the same uproar would occur if the attila the hun was a leader.

 

[dc82]

not only is hitler himself an offensive idea to many people, but i think the germans would find it insulting to be once again portayed as the nazi's, made as the bad guys - i mean, that's not to say we forget what happened in wwii, but for many germans, it's a past that they want to learn from and move on for, as opposed to permanently living with that stigma. part of the problem maybe that german history (at least germany as the modern nation-state as we know it), is rather short (shorter than the us) - take out the 30s-late40s, and 're left w/ early nation building, losing wwi, a failed weimar repblic, a divided germany, and now, post-cold war germany, which is a bit too soon to portray on civ.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Btw, isn't Mao replaced in the Chinese version anyway? Not because he's despised, no - the exact opposite: They couln't accept him getting defeated...

 

[EdwardTking]

Hitler should be there, swastikas and all.

Excluding him and that falsifies history.

 

[dc82]

exluding him doesn't falsify history - no one's denying what happened. it's just the judgment of the developers that there r less contraversial figures that can be used to portray germany in the game.

 

[Own]

but i think the germans would find it insulting to be once again portayed as the nazi's,

My point exactly. I don't think it's being 'censored,' because most people 11 and older I'm guessing know who Hitler is and what he did. It's that Germans don't want to feel represented by him. If I was German (and I am mostly German), I would not want to be remebered by him. It's also the embarrasment that the German people foolishly voted for him. I'm sure all Germans old enough to understand how horrible things that Hitler did were, want to forget Hitler (except in elections, that's when they remeber him). History books are one thing, a game designed for entertaining (and a little bit of history) is another.

What about the Jews and other victims of the Holocaust? Has anyone mentioned their feelings?

 

[Own]

Excluding him and that falsifies history.

I believe if we leave out any other German leader there ever was, that's falsifying history too.

 

[sausnebb]

It's widely approved to seperate Nazi-Germany from Germany, and I don't think Civilization should mix those two unless in a scenario where you control Nazi-Germany and not Germany.

Those two are not the same.

 

[Communisto]

It's widely approved to seperate Nazi-Germany from Germany, and I don't think Civilization should mix those two unless in a scenario where you control Nazi-Germany and not Germany.

Those two are not the same.

"we wen't through all of Germany and never found a single Nazi" - Easy Company

They are the same, do not be illusioned; every nation has a dark time, the germans cannot deny that part of their past.

 

[sausnebb]

every nation has a dark time, the germans cannot deny that part of their past.

Yeah sure, it's complicated. I must say that this is of course is my opinion. I think there are reasons for distinguishing these two, like because that Germany was defeated during WW1 and didn't appear again until '89 (or whenever it was...), the reunification Germany. The aftermath of WW1 made the situation in Ger extreme, and the new way of thinking and the new government, the new policy, can be seen as a new nation arising. Germany was defeated after WW1 and Nazi-Germany was defeated during after WW2. I'm aware of the relativity in this discussion, but I think dividing nations is reasonable in this case, and at the same time this halts the continually condescending attitude towards germans.
It's like dividing Russia and Soviet.
Hitler should not be the leader of Germany.

 

[Adler17]

First: the game would be banned in Germany at once. To any reasons Nazi signs are not allowed in games, because of a (questionable) jurisdiction of German courts.
Second: We can´t deny our history. But in a game the greatest leader of Germany should appear. Hitler was obviously not the greatest leader although he thought to be it. Also HE was no German! He was Austrian. Then Frederic the Great is a much better choice than Hitler since he was at least a German (although some Bavarians here would become furious ).
If you want a German leader of ww2 who was no Nazi take Grandadmiral and President Dönitz or Julius Leber (SPD) or Friedrich Goerdeler (DNVP). The two latter were resistance fighter who were executed after the Staufenberg´s assassination attempt. Nevertheless they had little to no impact and are not very known.
I think still Bismarck is the best choice (nearly) everybody can live with that.

Adler

 

[Louis XXIV]

Not only is Bismark a great choice, but, with good programming, he would probably be the most interesting leader to face, since they've added individual leader personalities.

 

[Chinese American]

if i were to play the Germans, why would i choose for my advisor a paranoid, mass-murdering failure?

 

[antonio]

@ Own : I suggest you read more about History. Charlemagne wasn't Emperor of France, nor of the French. He was Emperor of the Franks, technically a Germanic tribe. His Empire was eventually cut in three parts in 843, the western part becoming France afterwards. The only guy who can fully represent France in its height is Louis XIVth, the Sun King (says it all).

.

Even if Charlemagne was the leader of a mainly german tribe he still is recognized as the father of both France and Germany so could be put as leader of either France or Germany.France should have someone other than Joan of Arc as she wasnt actualy ever a French leader and didnt do that much for it realy apart from liberating a few citys form the Engliish.Which did turn the war yes but still.I am against people who werent leader of there country as being leaders in civ.It seems strange to me.the french leader should definatley be either charles De Gaul, Napoleon or Charemagne.For Germany Charlemegne agian, Barborosso or Hitler I would love to see him in aslong as there is another leader choice available.

 

[Benzlys]

Hitler in a scenario is ok. He did his mark into our history.

However, I think it is not acceptable to the german nation to portray him as one of their leaders for many reasons.

First, the pain is still too recent. Even if the Nazis were defeated 60 years ago.

Second, the Nazism would be too much associated to the German nation while in reality, it was spread everywhere in Europe. The only reason why it succeeded in Germany, it was because of the context. The humiliating situation of Germany after the WW2. Outsiders are as much responsible as the germans for the rise of Hitler.

Third, Hitler contributed nothing to German other than disgrace and a shameful heritage. Unless you want to count in the first highways? Even a barbarian like Genghis Khan created something with his large empire.

It wouldn't be fair for the Germans, unless it is a scenario.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Not only is Bismark a great choice, but, with good programming, he would probably be the most interesting leader to face, since they've added individual leader personalities.

He for sure would be THE leader you do not want to face. He actually was a smart, realistic, capable politician with diplomatic skills...all the others are either megalomaniac madmen who had the luck on their side (Alexander, Napoleon), or capable soldiers who saved their nation in a critical situation (Washington).
Bismarck would simply sit in an insane diplomatic safety net like a fat spider, and wait until you make a minor mistake...

 

[DoTheMath]

If they had 3 German leaders, and gave the user the option to exclude one,so the computer could be probihiited from choosing him randomly, would cause less upset.

As for Hitler not being a "great leader" he was the most powerful of 3 nations who kept much of the world at bay for 6 years. There was also the possibility that he'd be the first to build the bomb.