Hitler's Britan - An Alternate History

[Winner]

Nazi Germany occupies Britain
Nazi Germany invades the Soviet Union
Japan attacks Pearl Harbor
USA invades Germany
Fall of the Axis

I might have skipped a few steps or two but that's pretty much what will happen.

Successful Sealöwe -> no Britain
-> no real Western aid for the USSR when it gets invaded
-> USSR suffers terrible defeats in 1941/1942/1943, cease-fire signed, some territories ceded
-> Germany doesn't declare war on the USA after Pearl Harbour (Britain defeated, no need)
-> USA defeats Japan
(...)
Tri-polar Cold War between Nazi-controlled Europe, the USSR and the US.

---

Screw historical determinism

 

[Zardnaar]

Winner wins. Germany gets nuked, USA wins.

 

[aelf]

Hitler's Britain? You mean Zheng He's?

 

[Winner]

Winner wins. Germany gets nuked, USA wins.

Without a large unsinkable carrier called Britain right next to the Third Reich, no large-scale American strategic bombing offensive would have been possible.

As for the nukes - a lot of scientists taking part in the Manhattan project were British. I can imagine them being shipped to Germany to take part in German nuclear research (in pretty much the same way German scientists were used by both the US and the Soviets after the war in OTL). It's questionable whether the US would have developed nukes by 1945 and it is very unlikely it would have been able to effectively produce and deliver them to make a difference.

 

[Karalysia]

Soviet Union overruns Europe by 1947 after a bloody fight. A Nazi German successor state survives in Britain. Glorious socialism from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

 

[Merkinball]

I'd say that the Nazi's would ban guns, institute a universal healthcare system, and turn it into a police state where there were security cameras all over the place.

 

[Zardnaar]

Without a large unsinkable carrier called Britain right next to the Third Reich, no large-scale American strategic bombing offensive would have been possible.

As for the nukes - a lot of scientists taking part in the Manhattan project were British. I can imagine them being shipped to Germany to take part in German nuclear research (in pretty much the same way German scientists were used by both the US and the Soviets after the war in OTL). It's questionable whether the US would have developed nukes by 1945 and it is very unlikely it would have been able to effectively produce and deliver them to make a difference.

Americans Operation Torch NA, bomb Ploesti using LR bombers from Africa. Germany runs outta gas= screwed.

 

[Quackers]

TBH it's not good is it

Nazi Germany controls Britain mainland but our Empire protected by our royal fleet will come and save the day. D-day on landsend by Canadian + Aus/NZ troops

I'd say that the Nazi's would ban guns, institute a universal healthcare system, and turn it into a police state where there were security cameras all over the place.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

something that works in europe, preferably.

Or Canada.

 

[Winner]

Americans Operation Torch NA, bomb Ploesti using LR bombers from Africa. Germany runs outta gas= screwed.

What Operation Torch? No Britain -> no campaign in the Mediterranean

Most likely the US wouldn't have gone to war with Germany. German decision to declare war was Hitler's insane decision, most likely motivated by the US material support for Britain.

If Britain had been subjugated, the US would have been left totally isolated from Europe. They'd still have fought Japan, had the Japanese attacked as they did in OTL, but there would have been no rational reason to declare war on Germany.

In the end, the Germans would have defeated the (even more isolated) Soviets and the USSR would have either fallen apart or forced to sign some humiliating cease-fire and cease large territories in European parts of it.

After that, Nazi Germany would have become effectively undefeatable. It follows that a sort of Cold War-like situation would have developed, but this time it would be the bad guys who would have had the upper hand, at least initially.

 

[Cheetah]

It follows that a sort of Cold War-like situation would have developed, but this time it would be the bad guys who would have had the upper hand, at least initially.

I still wonder about that. The Nazi's wasted a lot of resources in their mindless attempt to eradicate the Jews and unruly intelligentsias. Not just the resourceful people they killed off, but also the cost of running all the camps.

Killing lots of smart people and wasting resources on it is not a good way to keep the lead in a cold war...

 

[Winner]

They were not worse than the Soviet Communists in this respect. If they seized the whole of Europe, there would be no place left to escape to. Switzerland? Nope, they'd probably fold and return the refugees in an attempt to appease Germany. Sweden? Very hard to get there from mainland Europe. Turkey? The same problem there.

What I meant is that Germany in OTL was quite advanced in rocketry, jet propulsion, submarine tech and other stuff. If it hadn't been bombed to pieces and occupied by the Allies, it would have surely capitalized on that advantage.

The documentary isn't wrong about the fact that the Germans might have been the first on the Moon in this time line Von Braun would have stayed in Germany and run the rocket programme as he did for the Americans in OTL.

And don't forget - they'd control Europe. The whole of it. Plus (probably) the large part of the British Empire, at least indirectly. That would have given them a huge economic advantage over the Soviet Union in OTL.

 

[Cheetah]

They were not worse than the Soviet Communists in this respect. If they seized the whole of Europe, there would be no place left to escape to. Switzerland? Nope, they'd probably fold and return the refugees in an attempt to appease Germany. Sweden? Very hard to get there from mainland Europe. Turkey? The same problem there.

What I meant is that Germany in OTL was quite advanced in rocketry, jet propulsion, submarine tech and other stuff. If it hadn't been bombed to pieces and occupied by the Allies, it would have surely capitalized on that advantage.

The documentary isn't wrong about the fact that the Germans might have been the first on the Moon in this time line Von Braun would have stayed in Germany and run the rocket programme as he did for the Americans in OTL.

And don't forget - they'd control Europe. The whole of it. Plus (probably) the large part of the British Empire, at least indirectly. That would have given them a huge economic advantage over the Soviet Union in OTL.

Oh, I wasn't considering the Soviet Union. I was more thinking about the United States.

Sure, Germany had an advantage at the beginning, I'm just questioning if they would be able to hold the advantage even while wasting large resources on killing intelligent people throughout the Reich.

 

[Winner]

Probably not. National Socialism would slowly degrade, like Communism. Eventually it would collapse.

It's a good question what would have happened to the Jews. Maybe if the Nazis hadn't been so pressed by the war and Hitler hadn't have slipped into (total) madness after the failures in 1941, they'd just be relocated to Russia or something. But that's probably naive of me - Nazis were hell bent on getting rid of them.

The US would have been in a difficult situation, because it would have had no major Western allies -> no market for exports, nobody to share the costs with of containing Germany and the USSR (if it had survived) or the Communist China.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Successful Sealöwe -> no Britain
-> no real Western aid for the USSR when it gets invaded
-> USSR suffers terrible defeats in 1941/1942/1943, cease-fire signed, some territories ceded
-> Germany doesn't declare war on the USA after Pearl Harbour (Britain defeated, no need)
-> USA defeats Japan
(...)
Tri-polar Cold War between Nazi-controlled Europe, the USSR and the US.

---

Screw historical determinism

Hey, that's the plot of one of Harry Turtledove's books.

(Well, almost. Britain is conquered because the US never enters the European war.)

 

[TheAlamo]

Soviet Union would've still won. It was not possible for Germany to win that war.

 

[Leifmk]

Successful Sealöwe

Impossible.

Exactly why it was impossible is discussed at some length here: http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/Miscellaneous/Sealion.htm

Capsule description: Germans had no adequate transport vessels, no experience at contested amphibious operations (and indeed the single exercise they held to prepare for transporting troops and materials across failed miserably and turned into a rescue operation, despite favourable weather and no opposition), much weaker naval forces available than what the British had in the area, and no way to make the situation less disadvantageous for themselves.

The plan as designed called for throwing a lot of men and light materiel across on a mishmash of Rhine barges (not all that seaworthy; a single destroyer could capsize one by just sailing past at some speed) and commandeered civilian craft while the Kriegsmarine and much of the Luftwaffe essentially sacrificed themselves to try to keep the Royal Navy otherwise occupied for a while, and the men on the transports would have to defend themselves by... opening firing on any Royal Navy vessels with small arms. Upon landing, they (or rather the surviving portion of them) were expected to spontaneously form operational units and a command structure from whatever was at hand. Resupply and the bringing-in of heavier equipment would have to depend on later transports (at a point when the Kriegsmarine would likely consist of almost solely submarines). I swear I am not making this up.

In practice, everyone sent across would end up either floating in the channel, dead on or near the beaches, or in a British POW camp (where they would at least do their part to hinder the subsequent UK war effort by requiring food to eat, and such). This, at the cost of most of the Kriegsmarine. It seems fairly obvious that the people put in charge of the operation realized this and did their best to drag their feet to make sure they'd never actually have to execute it.

 

[Winner]

Soviet Union would've still won. It was not possible for Germany to win that war.

That's one of myths that sorely needs busting.

If the USSR hadn't received help from the West, it would have been defeated. In this alternate scenario, Britain was defeated, the US never went to war with Germany and so Germany was able to throw everything at Russia. On time. Even if there were bumps along the road, the Soviets would have lost.

Impossible.

I tend to agree. At least not possible according to the plan they had in 1940. It would take a major screw-up on the side of the British for them to lose. Or perhaps it would be more possible if they lost everything at Dunkerque and the RN got badly mauled in this unsuccessful rescue operation. Or if the French Navy was successfully seized by the Germans. Or if there was no Operation Weserübung in which the German navy suffered significant loses. Or... blah blah blah

This scenario is based on such premise - the Germans have won, so what happens next? That's how I treat it

 

[TheAlamo]

Yeah, let's wave a magic wand. Sure, when you establish conditions for your hypothetical that are just patently impossible to the point of being absurd, I suppose the Nazis could've won. While we're indulging in anti-communist fantasies, why don't we presuppose that the entire modern USAF and USN somehow went back in time, pledged fealty to Hitler, and immediately attacked Moscow?

Sorry, but there is simply no way the Soviet Union was going to lose a war against Nazi Germany. It was always a question of how much damage they could do before the hammer and sickle was unfurled over the Reichstag.

 

[Leifmk]

I tend to agree. At least not possible according to the plan they had in 1940.

Nor with anything they had or could acquire at the time, not even if they'd started preparing years earlier. The disparity in naval power was just too great.

It would be far, far more plausible to "remove" Great Britain from the war by positing a takeover of homegrown Fascists or Fascist-sympathizers at some point considerably before the war even broke out, making the regime either friendly or at least neutral towards Germany. "The French have been our enemies for centuries and we have our great Empire; the Russians are a lot of wogs and who cares what the Germans do on the continent" or something along those lines. And that's still not very plausible, but it's more plausible than Sealion resulting in anything more than a bunch of drowned Germans.