Hitler's view of other Europeans

[Uiler]

We all know Hitler's view about the supremacy of the Aryan race and his views on Jews, Gypsies and blacks. However, what was his views on the other European nations? For example Aryans were supposed to tall, blonde and blue-eyed. How could he justify allying with the swarthy, black-haired, brown-eye Italians (or even the Japanese now that I think about it...?) and fighting the blonde blue-eyed Anglo-saxons and the blonde blue-eyed Scandinavians? Were the English for example considered part of the "superior race"?

 

[pboily]

He was quite fond of the Brits (as a "species") if I remember correctly.

 

[Plotinus]

Yes, I believe that Hitler regarded the British as basically racially the same as the Germans (presumably subscribing to the same "Anglo-Saxon" myth that the English themselves believed), and this is one reason why he originally envisaged allying with Britain. I remember seeing some Nazi propaganda (after the outbreak of hostilities) which portrayed the English as a bunch of effete, degenerate, upper-class public schoolboys, in contrast to the manly and earthy Germans. Possibly one of those examples of propaganda with its roots in reality! But, of course, not racially based.

 

[la cosa nostra]

We all know Hitler's view about the supremacy of the Aryan race and his views on Jews, Gypsies and blacks. However, what was his views on the other European nations? For example Aryans were supposed to tall, blonde and blue-eyed. How could he justify allying with the swarthy, black-haired, brown-eye Italians (or even the Japanese now that I think about it...?) and fighting the blonde blue-eyed Anglo-saxons and the blonde blue-eyed Scandinavians? Were the English for example considered part of the "superior race"?

The tall, blonde hair, blue eyes idealism is a myth. Look at Hitler and his inner circle, do you really think they would idealise something they didnt encompass?

Hitlers racial views were more a matter of convenicnce than idelogy really, disposing of the jews gave Hitler and the Nazis full control over the German economy, disposing of the slavs would give him land etc.

 

[Reno]

The tall, blonde hair, blue eyes idealism is a myth. Look at Hitler and his inner circle, do you really think they would idealise something they didnt encompass?

It's true that Hitler really didn't believe in the "Thule" mythology gibberish that Himmler and the SS believed in. He is even quoted in saying the following comment about Himmler's visions: "When the Romans were building mighty stone fortifications and living in huge cities, while our ancestors lived in clay shacks. That kind of German history should be more covered up instead of being studied".

Himmler on the on the other hand, even whent out his way to organise archeological expeditions to Tibet (in 1938, the expedition returned just before the war started), Iceland and Brazil. He even formed an SS division, which was specifically made for the 'writing and preservation' of "Aryan history", the Ahnenerbe SS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahnenerbe

 

[Verbose]

Recently caught a seminar with an American historian studying Nazi and Fascist cultural policies:

After all the usual disclaimers - Nazism in particular being a number of internally competing micro-tribes, Italian fascism not being much more cohesive - he proceded to tell the story of how the German Nazis and Italian Fascists institutionalised a kind of festivals for cultural "exchange", inviting other nations as well (Spanish, Scandinavians, Central Europeans etc.)

What they envisaged was a Europe where each nation beavered away at their own specific national culture, whatever that meant. Then they all showed it off in front of the others. But no mixing, and no borrowing! Separate but (possibly?) equal, might be the formula here.

For the Nazis it meant plugging Goethe and Schiller (no surprise, most Germans would). While the Italian Fascists made a great noise about Dante, Petrarca etc. (again not surprising).

The ones who were given a hard time were the French. They did get invited on the premise that they absolutley would not try to foist these ideas about their stuff having UNIVERSAL appeal (as well as stuff like human rights, democracy, etc).
Since France since the Revolution has built it's identity on finding ideals and solutions that they have considered to be universally valid and applicable (just like the US), this meant that the French found themselves backed up against the wall on the topic of what's actually, essentially FRENCH. They consistently were told that their art, literature etc. was just not tribal enough.

The Italians on the other hand was perceived as having such a brutally solid, massive, imposing national culture, that several of the Germans involved actually feared that even if Germany won the war, the Italians would win the subsequent peace, due to its potential cultural superiority.

As for the French military, Hitler is on record stating that in his opinion the most martial nation in Europe - bar the Germans of course - is the French. And any post-war New Order in Europe must have it as a priority to contain the very real threat of French military revanschism, believe it or not.

This was his reaction to the little French action fought at bir Hakeim in the North African dessert war.

 

[nonconformist]

The Japanese were awarded the status of "Honourary Aryans".

 

[ComradeDavo]

We all know Hitler's view about the supremacy of the Aryan race and his views on Jews, Gypsies and blacks. However, what was his views on the other European nations? For example Aryans were supposed to tall, blonde and blue-eyed. How could he justify allying with the swarthy, black-haired, brown-eye Italians (or even the Japanese now that I think about it...?) and fighting the blonde blue-eyed Anglo-saxons and the blonde blue-eyed Scandinavians? Were the English for example considered part of the "superior race"?

You forgot to mention that he also persecuted the Slavs, who he saw as an inferior race, and they are European. So really you are asking the question about Western European countries, because the Eastern European ones Hitler regarded as countries to be conquered and their people forced into slavery/wiped out.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

He was quite fond of the Brits (as a "species") if I remember correctly.

Yes, I remember hearing this as well, because the Brits had several Saxon and Viking invasions over the years and obviously many stayed behind after the main forces of their armies moved out.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Major Werner Goldberg, was awarded(don't know how to translate award name correctly, something like Knight's Cross) father - jew. In 1946 he was allowed to see his father in England and then said:"Someone had to protect our country."

Colonel Walter Hollander, mother - jew, he got personal paper from Hitler that he is of Aryan blood, and same papers were given to dozens of high-rank commanders.
"In my departament, only I can decide who is jew and who's not!"(c)Goering
Jews were persecuted cuz they stated themselves mostly as "jews in Germany" not germans. If man was loyal to Germany - he could make a career in Wermacht. It is estimated that over 150k jews served in Wermacht normally.

 

[nonconformist]

Are you seriously suggesting the Jews brought it upon themselves?

 

[Phyr_Negator]

"77-list" - list of high-ranked officers with jew blood or married to jew woman. All 77 got personal Hitler-signed papers stating they got German blood. That list includes 23 colonels, 5 Major-Generals, 8 lieutenant-generals and two army generals.
Edit: I'm suggesting that jews served in Wermacht. There were laws(first in 1940) stating that all officers with two jew grandfathers or grandmothers have to abandon their service(whose with one jew grandparent could stay as privates) but that laws were ignored totaly. Thus they were repeated in 1942,43 and 44 with same results.

 

[History_Buff]

Are you seriously suggesting the Jews brought it upon themselves?

I am not saying that the Jews deserved what they got, because they certainly did not. But, the Jews weren't just some random target Hitler picked up on to trash. In the period immediately before WWII, while Hitler and the Nazi's were on the rise, people remembered that the Jews during the economic collapse of the 20's were generally well educated compared to the rest of Germany. They were viewed, perhaps correctly, as having prevented the economic rehabilitation of Germany.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Not well educated but owned a lot of German industry, and held most of important offices. When Hitler began driving jews off the German industry and overall business began to shift towards germans, happened this:

In response Germany initiated 1(one!!!) day boycot of jewish goods and stores. Happened 6 years before rumors about "death camps"(1941-42) appeared, all publications before was "Germany discriminates jews!". Even jewish historians admit that it was empty rumors about "death camps" in that time, because most of jews arrested in Germany at that period was mostly communistic politics, lawyers and literators.

 

[El_Tigre]

There's no use in arguing with scum like you, so I won't even try.

Instead, I'm going to tell you something about myself. I probably shouldn't.

I'm a German history major preparing my M.A. thesis. ATM, I am an intern at the Federal Archive, the "Bundesarchiv". The Bundesarchiv is the one and only central archive of the Federal Republic of Germany, which is the official and accepted successor of the German Reich, AKA the "Third Reich". Because of that, the Bundesarchiv takes care of all Nazi documents as well.

I'm working for a project called "Jewish Citizens in Germany from 1933-1945". The aim of this project is simple: we want a complete list of all Jews that lived in Germany (borders as on 01.01.1938) between 01.01.1933 and 08.05.1945. A list of the Jewish Holocaust victims has already been made a long time ago, but this list has to include all Jews that emigrated and that died of natural causes, too.

My supervisor (he is very, very senior) wrote letters to all state and community archives in Germany, asking them to send us all their material about their Jewish citizens. Historic literature and foreign data (lists of immigrants from the US and Israel, for example) are used as well. The material from the German archives are originals, copies of originals, or data sets compiled from official data. Every day, I see more Swasticas than you will see in your whole live.

I'm an intern for just two months, and my internship is almost over. My task is/was very simple: organize and then feed as much of this data as possible into a datadank. For each person, I have to fill out a formular containing the following data:
Name, birthday, place of birth, residence, date of emigration, date of deportation, place of deportation, died, place of death, comments.

I can only assume that I fed the system with, say, 20.000-30.000 names.
If everything goes well, the final list should contain more than 600.000 names, the approx. number of German Jews. As you can see, I'm just a small part in a huge machine.

Here are some experiences I made during my intership:

• The first deportations of carefully selected Jews started immediately after 1933. Those deportations weren't lethal, and almost all Jews survived and returned a couple of months later, but they were systematic, because they focused on the most intelligent and the most influental Jews.
• From 1935-1938, the Jews were concentrated in certain German towns. No real concentration camps, but they were "stacked" in certain towns, while other towns had to get rid of all their Jews. Fortunately, many Jews realized what was going on and emigrate.
• November 1938, the Reichskristallnacht. A huge wave of deportations to concentration camps in Germany. Several thousands of them die. Most of them survive and return after several weeks, but the Jewish leadership does not return. Emigration peaks until Sept. 1939.
• 1938, 1939: All Jews now live in 50-80 German towns and cities. Wide area of Germany are "judenfrei".
• 1939-1942: after this preparational work, the "real" deportations are quite simple. After all, the "cargo" is already piled and numbered. Destination: not to the death camps, but to the Ghettos in Theresienstadt, Riga, Lodz and Warsaw.
• 1942-1944: hundreds of thousands of German Jews are bounced around between ghettos, concentration camps and exterminations camps. The latter are, of course, the final destination, but most of them die before they arrive in Auschwitz, Sobibor or Treblinka.
• 1945: no more statistically significant data left. Some singular files about fugitives or workers in crucial factories.
• From my experience, I'd say that 50% of the German Jews managed to emigrate. Unfortunately, approx. 15-25% of them went to the Netherlands, or France. Most of them died, too. Remember, German Jews had far better chances to emigrate, because they were not as poor as East European Jews, had better contacts to Western Europe, and because they could emigrate before WW2 started, unlike Jews from Eastern Europe, or the Netherlands, or France, ...
• I've seen communities that had been wiped out without a single jew surviving WW2.
• On the other hand, I've seen that sometimes, the rabbi of a community decided to emigrate before 1938, and almost the whole community followed his example.
• I've seen children that have been sent by their parents to Palestine, and that later came back and tried to take their parents with them. Those families died together.
• I've seen Jews that made it aboard a freighter to Cuba as late as 1940, but then the Cubans denied immigration because they didn't have a visa. They were sent back, and then deported and killed by the Nazis.
• I've seen two cases of pregnant women giving birth to a child in a concentration camp. Both children died, 3 weeks old.

I could go on, but you get the picture. I'm not going to prove to you IN ANY WAY that the above is true; I won't even reply to any of your posts in this thread. You're not worth it. I wrote the above because the inane and repulsive stuff you just posted has to be challenged by someone at least once. I know you're going to argue that my post is pointless because it's doesn't counter your arguments in this thread. Hell, we're even talking about different subjects.

You are wrong. I don't care about your facts and stories, not because I dismiss the historic research that has been done in order to obtain them, but because of the intent with which you posted it on this board. I'm talking about the pure, unsurpassable horror that was the Third Reich. The same horror you are trying to white wash; to plaster with seemingly clever arguments and useless trivia. There's no place for petty details when you're talking about pure evil. We are talking about the same thing, I just refuse to descend to your level of argument.

 

[Plotinus]

Well done, El Tigre. I don't think there's much to say to that.

 

[blackheart]

What are you proving, El_Tigre?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Moderator Action: Pls keep it civil.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Phyr_Negator]

El_Tigre, don't be afraid, scum like me don't care about insults from your kind)
Ah, I gonna like this thread!

I don't care about your facts...

There's no place for petty details when you're talking about pure evil.

The best!
Hehe. Now I have to answer something as you said before...hmmm, yea, I should.
I don't see anything wrong in things you mentioned.
Funny thig that even most fanatical nazis never denied fact of discrimination and Hitler's intention to drive jews out of Germany.

 

[Verbose]

Jews were persecuted cuz they stated themselves mostly as "jews in Germany" not germans. If man was loyal to Germany - he could make a career in Wermacht. It is estimated that over 150k jews served in Wermacht normally.

You're simply wrong.

What you've got here are a bunch of examples of the Nazi capacity for inconsistency, when it suited them.
And they are all "Mischlinge, erste Grade" ("racially mixed, first order", i.e. people with one Jewish and one "Aryan" parent) — a group that could get special dispensation to go on to higher education, military careers (not SS) etc. in Nazi Germany, provided they displayed the right attitude to Nazism.
You might even include von Manstein here, if you like (Jewish ancestors a few generations back).

These examples don't prove anything really, except to exemplify how German racial laws were applied once one moves into the "difficult" categories of people considered racially mixed.

The 150.000 Jews serving in the Whermacht were "Mischlinge erste Grade", with a Jewish mother and a German father. And most of these mothers came from convert families, meaning these people had never grown up with anything remotely looking like a Jewish religious identity.

It's just that according to Jewish tradition they are considered fully Jewish. According to Nazi race laws they were considered 50% Jewish. Today we would consider them 100% culturally German.
You've got a massive confusion about categorisations in you statement above.

The Jews in Germany above and beyond any other group of Jews in Europe though of themselves and presented themselves as German first, Jewish second, and in top of that usually favoured the formula that Jewishness was just a question of religion, not of race.

That's how the German Jews in general seems to have felt about things. The German antisemites clearly thought different.

The "problem" of the Jews for first German antisemitism ("Völkish" movement etc.) and later Nazism was precisely that you couldn't tell the Jews apart from any other Germans!

And the harder the Jews worked at becoming like any other Germans, and the better they succeeded, the more paranoid the antisemites grew. It worked the same way in France and a bunch of other western Europan countries.
Real sneaky those Jews...

The fact that the German Jews didn't keep to themselves, didn't wear special clothes, didn't speak a different language, didn't look different, didn't think of themselves as anything but Germans, except with a slightly different religion, which they kept private — all of that just helped to fuel antisemitism back then.

This is why the first thing the Nazis did when in power, regarding the Jews, was to pass a bunch of laws designed to make the German Jews VISIBLE as a group.

That's why all male German Jews got the name "Abraham" and all feamles "Sara" foisted upon them by the authorities — to single them out as specifially Jewish, regardless of how they thought about themselves.

That's also why the Nazis passed laws outlawing the Jews having anything to do with all the cultural stuff they thought "Aryan", leaving German actors and theatre directors of Jewish descent only a small mixed bag of plays, novels etc. that the Nazis disliked and considered "Jewish".

The Nazis litarally artificially created and defined as specific "Jewish" culture and forced their Jewish population to stick to it. They then held this picture up to the public as "proof" of how Different the Jews were.

And looking at the big picture, the Jews hardest hit by Nazism weren't even the German Jews.
Firstly because there was a long build up before the Nazis started killing them. Of the 1.7+ million German Jews, over 1 million had fled the country, been driven out, before 1939.

Secondly because the measures taken against the Jews in Germany had to be presented in such a way that ordinary Germans didn't notice too much. (No more than they could go on denying things to themselves.) Which is why German Jews married to Aryans weren't sent of to the KZ-lagers until the very end of the war for example. You had to step lightly in Germany, where iron-clad boots were acceptable in occupied countries.

The percentage of German Jews who survived WWII is roughly comparable to the survival rate for French and Italian Jews (French Jewish community was even larger in 1945 than in 1940, due to refugees).
The Jewish groups made extinct by Nazism are all found in Central and Eastern Europe (Poland, Balkans especially.)

If the Nazis had some special quarrel with Germany's Jews, why the hell would they then go after some other people?

Except, of course, Nazi racial ideology never gave a rat's ass about what the Jews actually did or had done, individually or collectively, but based their actions on a shayt-for-brains racial ideology curiously popular for the times.

So, you're wrong!