Does Race exist?

[Senethro]

The Kalash are argued to be distinct from the general population of Afganistan, and at least the Kalash themselves claim that (their tradition is that) they are descended from Alexander the Great's soldiers/other groups brought during that expedition.
At any rate there were greek kingdoms in central Asia (up to India) even after the rest of the greek world was conquered by Rome or Parthians.

Yeah, no disrespect to the Kalash. I'm meaning that when the model splits them you're starting to get outgroups that don't tell you much of use. K=10 would have had several Pacific islands as outgroups and a single Basque man whos family have not come down from the Pyrenees in 7 generations. You'd have to increase your number of DNA samples and loci to begin revealing things of interest to anthropologists. Probably by a lot.

 

[Senethro]

I'm showing example of DNA clustering by geographic locations.

1. No you're not. Or at least not in a way that is useful. Detecting the effect of the Bering Strait is not exactly fine work.
2. You aren't connecting these clusters to races (as they are commonly understood).

 

[red_elk]

1. No you're not. Or at least not in a way that is useful.

Define "useful".
You asked the example of DNA clustering by geographic locations, I gave you an article which demonstrate that, literally.

2. You aren't connecting these clusters to races (as they are commonly understood).

Should I?

 

[Senethro]

There are clusterizations corresponding to geographic locations and visually distinguishable human subgroups.

Should I?

By your own words you believe that you can. I'm also underlining the "visually distinguishable" part.

 

[red_elk]

By your own words you believe that you can.

Yes, my position is consistent and apparently you are not trying to understand it. Instead, making me prove obvious things, like existence of DNA clusters based on locations and phenotypical traits and when I do you claim it's not "useful".

 

[H4run]

Paradox forums are probably the most fascist ones a computer game can have
Re Domen, though, i like him. He didn't have bad intentions, nor was he fascist. He just loved dna lists... (and Poland).

I like his character he was so funny, but dang his over nationalism sometime can get into my nerve

 

[Senethro]

Yes, my position is consistent and apparently you are not trying to understand it. Instead, making me prove obvious things, like existence of DNA clusters based on locations and phenotypical traits and when I do you claim it's not "useful".

The clusters are not based on phenotypical traits. The clusters in that paper are do not align with the races (atacu). Those are the two massive gaps that you are trying to wallpaper over with some weak posting.

 

[Berzerker]

If ethnicity is real and race isn't how should we refer to more closely related ethnicities?

 

[red_elk]

The clusters are not based on phenotypical traits.

It's the other way around.
Clusters in phenotypical traits are based on underlying DNA clusters. Because phenotypical features are defined by genes.
If you are able to distinguish between white and black by analysis of DNA features, you can divide them into two clusters using these features.

The clusters in that paper are do not align with the races (atacu).

They show that several variants of clustering correlate with distribution of different races on Earth.

 

[Senethro]

It's the other way around.
Clusters in phenotypical traits are based on underlying DNA clusters. Because phenotypical features are defined by genes.
If you are able to distinguish between white and black by analysis of DNA features, you can divide them into two clusters using these features.

1.You are guessing this. You do not know this. Who has done work on clusters related to racial phenotypic traits?
2. It would be stupid either way because you are failing to cluster people by a good sample of the genome.

Seriously, think about it. They needed 400 loci to generate enough power to detect the Bering strait. If you try to make a model with a handful of melanin related loci then it would just fail to resolve any meaningful groups!

They show that several variants of clustering correlate with distribution of different races on Earth.

No they don't. Race realists do not treat the Kalash as the 6th race or the Pacific Islands as the 5th.

 

[Truthy]

For the record, that Rosenberg 2002 paper uses loci from the Human Genome Diversity Cell Line Panel (HGDP), which doesn't include melanin-related loci. All the loci are from the Y chromosome or mtDNA because those track male and female lineage, respectively and aren't recombinant. Pigmentation is determined somewhere on chromosome 16. Also, most of the HGDP loci were non-coding, so not many of those loci directly affect phenotypes. Though they could definitely influence gene expression indirectly through, e.g., interactions with transcription factors.

 

[red_elk]

1.You are guessing this. You do not know this.

I know this. If you can find a distance metric to classify variables in two categories, you can use this metric to clusterize them as well.

No they don't. Race realists do not treat the Kalash as the 6th race or the Pacific Islands as the 5th.

You've just demonstrated that you don't know what correlation means.

 

[Senethro]

The prosecution rests. I don't think I need further demonstrate that Red Elk doesn't know crap.