homeyg and Deity

BurN · Feb 4, 2008

Rusten said:
@Burn: It might be wise to focus espionage points (EP) towards the AI you're planning on attacking to be able to incite city revolts to remove cultural defense.

As to a game plan, I've been planning on making my next game with Isabella and try for a conquistador assault, picking nationalism as liberalism freebie, hopefully getting conquistadors vs longbowmen in the city garrison. I think one could do some hefty land grabbing using that, but seeing as you don't know whether you have horses that could be too big of a gamble (maybe research that next to find out and choose what to do, whether attack now or wait). I think the map type is Pangea, but I didn't open up the game to make sure.

Thanks, it was something I was considering too. I pretty much ignored espionage in my previous games.

And yes beelining conquistadors is a very plausible option. Though I have the feeling if I don't war earlier then that, I'm going to fall behind. I'll take AH while backfilling a bit, trying to get some conqui's eventually is a good choice regardless of the tech path.

Rusten · Feb 4, 2008

BurN said:
And yes beelining conquistadors is a very plausible option. Though I have the feeling if I don't war earlier then that, I'm going to fall behind.

You're probably right, I just noticed you only have 4 cities. It gets really crowded on Pangea maps and you pretty much have to landgrab through warfare sooner than later.

homeyg · Feb 4, 2008

Okay I played until 725 BC

Heres my cities (I missed out on getting that copper near Genghis and I praised god when I traded for Iron Working and that iron appeared near Cordoba). I took a different tech path, prioritizing BW and AH, and luckily there are some horses. I didn't think about going for a religion first, and now that I've seen you do that I wish I had done the same!

Spoiler :

I built a library in Madrid, and have two scientists running currently, only 11 turns until a GS. Two of the cities have already reached happy cap, so I need to find another source of happiness. Buddhism spread to Cordoba, and I switched to Buddhism (I'm not liking the looks of all those praets in Neapolis). I was able to trade for a bit with Aesthetics.

EDIT: I was thinking the same as Rusten when it comes to getting Nationalism as the tech from Liberalism, and getting conquistadors as soon as possible. Four cities won't allow us to survive very long..

I'm wondering now if I should have put some cottages, I was thinking that a food economy might work though.

homeyg · Feb 4, 2008

1 AD: Working my way towards Liberalism, I'm planning to bulb Philosophy, Paper, and Education by starving for great scientists and using Pacifism once I bulb Philosophy. I hope to hell I get it, but I'm pretty sure I will. A few wars have broken out, most notably between Shaka and Augustus. I wanna add that all civs on the west of me are pleased with me (this includes Augustus), and I have some mixed reactions with civs on the east.

Here's my lands

Spoiler :

I'm looking forward to comparing some more!

homeyg · Feb 4, 2008

Damnit! Augustus beat me to Liberalism by 11 turns..

I guess my goal is to get to conquistadors and grab some of Genghis's land.

I think I've basically figured out what the secret to Deity is: land, land, land... If I had a few more cities, that would mean more science, and faster research rate. Yay! That means Liberalism!

BurN · Feb 5, 2008

Doesn't look too bad homeyg. Genghis is also rather weak in my game, I plan to attack him with conqui's as well.

I got a slight problem in my game though. I stopped trading with Augustus on demand of Shaka, I had the marriage event with Augustus giving me -diplo and shaka asked me to declare on Bull which I agreed to. Guess what happens? :lol:

Anyways I had time to move my axes to the border city so I could fend of some smaller stacks he send. I didn't really see a serious sod yet .. I think this is just a phony war on demand of Bull. I think I'm worst enemy of both Bull and Augustus atm, I had the marriage event with Bull as well. Fun times~

I kind of want to make a small HA/Axe sod to pillage Augustus but I don't want him to bring his sod into play. :mischief:

Shaka is taking care of Bull so I don't have to worry about him.

I think this is the first game I actually build walls. :lol:

I think it can't hurt, I'll need em for castles anyways and maybe they'll save me in the future. Anyways this is the turn Augustus declared war on me. I was scared for a moment because my axes are in the northern city since Bull's borders connect with mine there. If Augustus would've brought a sod on the turn he declared war .. I don't think I could've hold Barcelona.

Spoiler :

Liberalism race .. I won't say it's not possible for me but I don't think I'll go for it because it seems very unlikely I'll get it anyways. Mao and Zara already got phil, I could bulb it but I wouldn't be able to trade. I think I'll just settle my GS in the capital. I was kinda lagging in techs after literature, I had to sacrifice scientists and those clams to get hammers for the GL. But now that I actually built it and went back to my scientists and clams, I seem to slowly catch up again. (though that might just be an illusion

)

I wanted to try a bulb game since I usually settle but my lack of experience with timed bulbing backfired.

I thought, let's sidetrack and get col->bulb phil since almost no one had col yet. But I was so stupid to oversee the fact that col isn't the only way to Phil and I kinda regret researching it now. I'll just continue my path to engineering and go to war with augustus as planned. And god I hope I can grab some cities from that guy, especially that city with the gold. Is that his capital? I'm not sure, since I had closed borders with him since the beginning. Actually while writing this, I realized I can use spies to scout. :rolleyes:

I've got an annoying diplomacy situation atm. Zara is pleased but I got no techs on him, Mao likewise, Shaka I got techs on him but he's cautious and refuses to trade, Genghis what a useless guy he got nothing for me, Bull hates me, Augustus hates me.

I've spread Buddhism to a few of Shaka's cities, I'm hoping I can convert him soon. He's on my tech level, it would be great to start trading with him to catch up with Zara. (and to fight Augustus of course)

Funny though, our top 4 on the scoreboard are the same but in slightly different order. Good luck with your conqui war against Genghis Homeyg! I hope you can grab some land that way.

ps: I just saw you can't grab the spices with the capital. I think founding buddhism did at least something good for me then. :lol:

homeyg · Feb 5, 2008

Here's some more screenies from my game at its current point (this is actually the exact turn I stopped playing at). I got pretty annoyed when Augustus beat me to Liberalism, that was my goal, to get Liberalism first. It's a downer, but I don't really think that it's a game ender. I'm sure it will make it a bit tougher though. I been spreading Buddhism around Genghis's lands. I'll try to get him to like me and stay at war with Zara longer to soften him up a bit before I come in. I've tried to keep my diplomatic situation under control a bit because I see Augustus's huge stack of Praets every few turns or so. Augustus is pleased with me though. Augustus and Shaka have been at war for the longest time, I don't know how the war weariness isn't eating them alive!

Spoiler :

I'm really interested to see how our games will play out, BurN! There's some pretty key differences with our diplomatic situations which should make our games both completely different from eachother.

This is the game I'm going to stick with until the end, win or lose. Should I lose, that means I start a new game with a new random leader. I hope that's not the case though!

BurN · Feb 5, 2008

Well let's hope for the best homeyg. I reconsidered my plan quite a bit. Zara is just totally owning my game.

I stepped away from the engineering beeline. I'm having too much problems keeping up in tech trough that tree (trade wise). I think if I really wanted to take that tree, I should've aimed for GE's trough forges or something. Anyways I bulbed phil even though I only could trade it to Shaka for feud and I used it to make peace with Bull and Augustus. Augustus brought his sod to my lands and he would've kicked my ass, so I had to sacrifice phil for peace.

So I just did the standard path. Bulb phil, run pacifism, research paper, 2x bulb edu and research lib. Around this time I was at war with Bull again thanks to shaka's demand and history repeats itself. Bull brought some crazy sod to one of my cities, I had to sacrifice education for peace. I traded edu around afterwards, since I was halfway lib already and no one had it yet. It grabbed me a lot of backfill techs.

1070 AD, I reach lib and pick nationalism as freebee. Zara could've easily beat me but he was being an idiot, researching printing press, nationalism and even constitution. :rolleyes:

I stopped playing on this turn since I want to think things over.

After trading worldmaps I started counting the AI cities. Zara got 12(!) cities, that's triple of what I got. Caesar got 9. Genghis got 8.

I'm actually getting pretty pessimistic at this point. How in gods name am I going to compete with augustus. I'm only slightly ahead on him but he got double the amount of cities, there's no way I can keep up with his production. Shaka is still at war with Bull so I can forget about getting him into war. I was thinking about bribing them to peace but .. bull is going to attack me in that case, I'm sure of it.

Genghis seems like the obvious target atm. I've been getting a lot of -diplo due zara and him asking me every 10 turns to declare war. If I can backstab Genghis I'll fix the diplo with zara and at the same time expand. That guy is way behind in techs anyways, I would guess I could steamroll him. Then again if I grab Genghis land, I got many borders with bull. If I then get dow'ed by both Augustus and bull, I'm a goner. With Genghis I at least have a chokepoint to defend against bull. I'm clueless here, I'll see where I stand once I research military tradition. I'm building castles atm, I can build trebs/cats/pikes while I'm waiting for military tradition and I hope by then Shaka gives me a better deal for his gunpowder. (he wants lib+nation+195gold atm .. :faint:

)
I think in retrospect befriending Bull and Augustus might've been more favorable. But alas, I can't foresee the future.

ps: I got both Shaka and Genghis to buddhist. :lol:

I'm running a priest atm, in the hope of building a shrine.
ps2: If I get dow'ed by Augustus or Bull at this point, it's game over. I've seen their sod wandering around and there's no way I can defend against it at this point.

edit: Oh yea homeyg, if you want an extra city why not place it south of the capital on that island. It has a crab resource. I wanted to settle there for a long time but I never could find the hammers for it. :lol:

(Never mind I just checked on your screeny and saw Augustus already took it.)
edit2: I just noticed there's only 2 religion blocks in your game. Though the diplo amongst the ai's seems more or less the same as in my game. Zara warring with genghis, shaka with bull+aug and mao not doing anything the whole game.

homeyg · Feb 5, 2008

Omg I'm so jealous! You won the Liberalism race!

BurN · Feb 5, 2008

Well Zara should have easily won lib if he didn't pick such a weird ass tech path. The guy is just zooming trough techs as if it's nothing.

I played till 1250AD now, I've been whipping/making conquis and trebs. Running vassalage & Theo. CRIII trebs right off the bat is nice.

Diplo is just a madhouse, everyone is just declaring war on eachother. The ai has been at war 24/7 since the start. I feel more confident with attacking Augustus atm, he's at war with genghis and he's mao's worst enemy. Mao tells me he's too busy, so I think we can expect him to dow on Augustus soon.

This is where I'm going to ask for advise though. I'm not too familiar with vassals yet, they've been a PITA in some of my immortal games. I'm pondering about two things:
- Wait for mao to dow and let them waste sods. I'll bribe mao back to peace when I attack to prevent augustus vassalizing to mao? Or will he still vassalize to someone else? I got no idea how the mechanics work.
- Dow on Augustus a bit after Mao and fight a 2v1. But I think he'll get steam rolled and vassalize to Mao.

Or is there even a chance Augustus would vassal to Zara or Bull? Man, I think I should read a mechanics article on this whole vassal thing before playing the next session. Because quite frankly I have no clue. >__>; This war needs to be a good one, I can't afford to mess up. I need to grab as many cities as possible. :X Opinions or suggestions are highly welcomed on this matter.

Tech wise, Zara is just far ahead. Once in a while I got a tech on him but I'm not trading. The last thing I want is him to get even more ahead. Augustus is now ahead of me but he's lagging in terms of units, he has been warring a lot and his army is outdated compared to mine. Bull .. ahead of me as well. Genghis is far behind, I could wipe him of the face of the earth in a blink of an eye. I don't know why Zara didn't kick his ass yet, they have been at war forever. Zara actually lost a city to him... oh the shame. :lol:

Shaka is being owned by bull, I'm just giving him free techs and I hope he can survive. I'm on equal techs with Mao, I've been doing most of my trades with him.

I'm actually thinking I got a shot at winning the game. But I need to do a good war against Augustus. Grabbing 3-4 cities would be good enough, I just want to cripple him so I don't get dogpiled by him and bull in the future.

IF that is successful, I could turn my army to genghis cause he's just being a weaksauce. I could probably grab quite a lot of cities and get diplo with Zara.

IF that is successful, I'll backstab Shaka. He's starting to lag behind and if I stop trading with him, I should be able to out-tech him in military.

Spoiler :

I'll probably continue tomorrow after reading up a bit on vassals, just to be sure. I'm looking forward to your war Homeyg. Let's kick some ass! :trouble:

(And let's not forget to watch our backs, it would be a shame to lose due a backstab at this stage

)

Xurr · Feb 5, 2008

Burn, I can tell you from experience that bull is going to be one of your biggest problems soon. He'll start spy spamming you with poison water etc and cause all kinds of havoc.

SnowlyWhite · Feb 5, 2008

a game a while ago: yada yada, I end up vassalizing vicky. Han(with whom I was pleased, close to friendly) declares on vicky. Louis declares on vicky.

I beat them both into stone age, I'm miles ahead on military(even on power graph, which seldom occurs in my games - was playing immortal so it's not too easy to start with, but even that graph manages to understand that tanks and infantry are better then rifles), I'm at my last %s for domi, louis dows on vicky(so on me too) again(the game was something like - take out a huge cathy, take out a mid vicky, take out some of sury's cities, who also dowed on my vassal vicky, and was on the last %s from hanibal).

That was bts unpatched at that time, so I don't know if that's the case(I don't know if I'm correct to start with), but apparently when they declare they don't take into consideration the master's power or at least, their relations with the master; I mean, louis does, but hanibal doesn't backstab. Nor sury when you're at friendly with him(we shared religion, I had his fav. civic and so on - was somewhere at +10 relations yet he declared on vicky, so on me too - I checked the log and everyone specifically declared on vicky). Anyway, I might be wrong, but apparently vassalizing the pariah isn't the best option in this game(not that, from what I read of your opponents, you could trust mao to start with nor do I know the looks of the map and if mao would have someone cheesier to declare on)

homeyg · Feb 6, 2008

My diplomatic situation is a living hell. I played until about 1180 AD. Zara has vassalized Genghis (this happened a while back anyways), and is extremely powerful, so I'm afraid to attack Genghis. Zara's frigates and airships will pwn me. Augustus is flying ahead in tech and I have not been able to trade techs in ages, and he is also extremely powerful (obviously). The damn emancipation penalty is setting me back a little. I think I have been wayyyyy too passive for this game because my military isn't very large yet (I only have a stack of 10-12 cats and a couple pikes and knights so far). I may be entering the 'not possible to win' zone, if I haven't entered it already.. My inexperience is starting to show!

I'm thinking of doing a little replaying from an earlier save (not too far back) and building more aggressively, as in focusing on building military units and not getting distracted.. I think another really hard thing about Deity is the fact that you have to focus on what you are trying to do. I think that you can't multitask (as in work on your infrastructure and military simultaneously) if you plan to accomplish a goal..

I'm going to work on this tomorrow.

iamnleth · Feb 6, 2008

Still have less than 6 cities? If so, sounds pretty hopeless. No offense. I think you need to do some REXing at the beginning of the game, or take out an opposing civ.

BurN · Feb 6, 2008

Played till 1525AD.

Spoiler :

I'm not too optimistic on the future of this game. The heavy whipping really hurt my tech rate, even Mao and Shaka passed me on techs at this stage. I'm not working any cottages, just working as many mines as possible and whipping the rest of the pop. Trying to catch up with Zara and Bull seems impossible, they both got a lot of land and are just teching like crazy. They're so far ahead I can't even imagine what they're researching at this point. I will keep playing of course but I think it's inevitable that zara or Bull will win by space.

There's two options:
- I could enter an era of peace, growing my cities and building much needed infrastructure. I will have democracy soon so I could work all my cottages. The downside would be that Bull and Zara still got much more cities then me. I could catch up with Mao I think though but I can't trade since he's WFYABTA atm.
- I could keep on whipping and declare war on genghis or shaka. Since I got more cities now, I could keep maybe two cottage cities to grow+science and whip the rest for units. And since I got the pyramids from Augustus I could run police state or something. Shaka would probably best, as you can see on the worldmap he lost some cities to Bull and Zara. Genghis is nice to have as a buffer between me and Zara/Bull.

My diplo isn't much better homeyg, but I think it will be better once I switch to FR again. I was running theo for xp.

Unconquered Sun · Feb 6, 2008

sup homeyg

you asked for criticism and tips, on the way. But first, take a look at my game. I specifically played a noRush/noREX opening like you guys did, so that it is obvious what is good for the economy - and what not so much.

BurN · Feb 6, 2008

Took a peek at your save Sun. Interesting to see you took those southern spots, I was thinking about them but I wasn't sure if they would be worth it. And I can clearly see the difference on not sidetracking on the lib race, I underestimated the deity tech speed, so I sidetracked early game quite a bit resulting in a later liberalism. For example I had engineering already at that point.

One question though, where are your units? :lol:

Or did I miss em? And I thought I was risky with only having a medium stack of axes. I would be interested to see you play this one out. I was doing good in techs but it sunk into depths after military tradition (cause of the unit upkeep and heavy whipping).

I cottaged the capital as well and the north one for prod. However I cottaged the western city and you seem to have farmed it.

Unconquered Sun · Feb 6, 2008

There's general theory: A is good, B is not.

There's also the map you play. Map may be good for B, not for A.

So you want to play random civ against random deities on a pangea. What does that tell you?

you get Hatty
you get Inca/Roman/any good early UU civ
you get creative
you get anything else for leader/civ

you start in a central position on the pangea
you start in peripheral position

capital has food/commerce/sea/forests/whatever

You also know that

by turn five, each AI has two cities on your landmass
warmongers will bully you with priority, all other things equal
peacemongers will have contact with all other peacemongers by the time of Alphabet

So where does this particular game ranks on the lists:
you don't have a civ with a natural strong opening on deity;

you are in the center (obvious in just a few game turns), which means you'll be pressed for land, and also barbs won't be a problem, but unlocking HE peacefull will be;

you get a river/seaside forested start with 3 food resources

you border tier 1 bully and another tier 1 bully is close (again obvious in just a few turns)
there are two tier 2 peacemongers in quality peripheral positions

homeyg · Feb 6, 2008

I'm taking a look at your save, US

Unconquered Sun · Feb 6, 2008

BurN said:
One question though, where are your units? Or did I miss em? And I thought I was risky with only having a medium stack of axes.

Why take any risk? I have all the AIs where I want them, fighting the wars I want to be fought. In a way, all military on the map is my military

homeyg and Deity

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