How are the Amish doing in the contemporary world?

innonimatu

the resident Cassandra
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Obviously I cannot expect for one to reply here! But people from the US may have first-hand observations to post.

My question is not an innocent one. I'm wondering specifically how well they are doing at farming while avoiding modern machinery and large-scale farming. And I'm asking because I've had this nagging impression that the demise of the small(ish) farm was not a technological inevitability.
 
I grew up around Mennonites. They do "fine", in that they are allowed to live in their closed-off communities by the government while also being allowed to sell their labour to actual citizens. They are also allowed to enroll in schools. They don't sell a great deal of crops. When they do, it's sold cheaply and off the beaten path. They mostly made their money in carpentry and roofing. Because they don't pay taxes or have any obligation to the state, they can afford to undercut competition by thousands of dollars.

They use modern technology when it suits them. True no-tech communities will also have no contact with modern society.
 
@inno Perhaps but then many of their costs are pretty low.
 
You can certainly get by with 19th century level farming tech. You'll never get well off that way. But it's sustainable. They don't really need a lot from the outside. And they can sell some surplus to get what they need. They've recently expended out from Pennsylvania and Ohio and have colonies in northern Maine.
 
They certainly do pay taxes, my late uncle helped them file taxes (talking about unorganized receipts, one had every documentation of his income/expenses, such as sales receipts, just randomly tacked to a wall). Payroll taxes (doing odd jobs for cash) and Social Security tax are the taxes they may not be paying when one says "They don't pay taxes", which the SS tax I guess was allowed for them to not pay it, on the agreement they won't use it when they reach retirement. However, I have seen some in the Social Security office, but who knows why they were there. They pay property taxes, so can use the school bus (drop the Amish kids off at the rural Amish school instead of the city public school). Chinese and Amish kids on the same bus, now that is diversity.

They do alot of manual labor. Parents got an expansion to their house, and these guys were getting paid something like $6.50/hour, and the actual receipt showed a tiny charge for his horse's food/water. Taxes or no taxes, regular contractors are not charging anywhere close to that low. Problem is, they won't show up to finish building your house if it's harvesting season, so delays in the fall are normal. If you know exactly what you want done, they can do it.....but if they know an easier or better way to do it, they won't share that with you and do it the wrong way and say "That's what you told me to do".
They make up 1/4 of the 20+ vendors at the weekly farmer's market, not all are food, one or two have Amish built furniture and/or crafts. There are some stores on the major highways selling amish cheese or furniture. I'm sure they make more from that than they do from the tiny white 'Eggs' sign on a lonely county gravel road nets them.

See them all the time at Walmart, of course never in the electronics section..... The amish women mob the office supply section for some reason. Often also seen getting toilet paper. Sometimes they do shopping for others (elderly neighbors for example), sometimes the purchases are a little questionable (one time it was something weird like the only thing the guy bought was 6 large jars of mayonnaise and 3 cans of whipped cream, and he set them on the conveyor belt in like a pyramid formation.) One guy bought like 20 buckets of ice cream. Buying for all the neighbors, or the next sunday church social, I don't know.

Every sect is different/sets different rules. From what I gather, they can use a phone or car but not own one. Even if they ever did own a phone, it would never be allowed in the house. Phone going off during mealtime when the family is gathered around the table would be a mortal sin.

20 years ago I would see one at a tavern every Friday night. When a group was building my parent's house they had a 6-pack of 'Mike's Hard Lemonade', and there was some debates/jokes amongst us non-amish whether they knew the lemonade had alcohol in it when they bought it. And they were smirking at my dad when he was washing dishes, as that's not something the Amish men would ever do. And when I first started working at the Walmart warehouse there was a horse parked outside, as one of the workers was Amish.

Mennonites are also around here, but not as numerous. Not much to say about them other than their clothing is old fashioned similar to amish, but noticeably different. And the Amish have horses, the Mennonites drive minivans like a crazy person.
 
Obviously I cannot expect for one to reply here! But people from the US may have first-hand observations to post.
My question is not an innocent one. I'm wondering specifically how well they are doing at farming while avoiding modern machinery and large-scale farming. And I'm asking because I've had this nagging impression that the demise of the small(ish) farm was not a technological inevitability.

They get around the prohibition of electricity by using a device that converts electricity into wind power then use that to power their tools, modern machinery thus saving them much in the way of hour of Manuel labour
They also live very furgal / spartan lives with few luxuries and wastage
 
They get around the prohibition of electricity by using a device that converts electricity into wind power then use that to power their tools, modern machinery thus saving them much in the way of hour of Manuel labour
They also live very furgal / spartan lives with few luxuries and wastage

I hadn't heard of that one. I know the 'Amish cheese store' type places obviously use electricity, but I figure they still don't use electricity in their houses.

There is a field directly next to my house that the amish use for hay, and use horses, not tractors.

amish-communities-technology.jpg
 
Pneumatic tools ^
Gas refrigerators

Seems there is a split between the communities along lines of old and new. Iam surprised to learn that prohibition on Alcohol is a later rule as well as relaxation on the use of electricity such as solar power. Perhaps they view this as permissible since it is self generated power from the sun.

I checked and the prohibition on electricity was back a while ago, the reason was that considered a luxury of TVs, and internet would be corrupting influences. Not that technology itself was bad and should be prohibited. Each community is free to interrupt the ban on electricity as they so choose.
 
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there's a fairly large community for the ones leave or don't return after rumspringa or whatever not too far from where I live (rural and in the sticks). They mostly work for a construction contractor who helped provide them with new homes and such, supposedly. I worked at a DIY store at the time up there and they were yammering in that Penn. Dutch or whatever people think it's called and had no problems loading the truck, tying down the truck, or handling the exchanges etc. but their chaperone guy or whatever drove.

Also several of them in the farmlands just north of here that mostly do craftwork: clockmakers, sewing and needlepoint, baking, that kind of stuff. I can't say anything of substance about how they farm but homeboy running a crafts store in his house had a pretty boss tractor with a furrower or seeder behind it. I suppose he could be doing the work on one of the many farms nearby (lots of corn and soy around here) and just keeping the equipment on site as he also maintains it.

They shop in the local wal-mart up there and hit up the farm and home places, but you'll never see them in actual downtown (I assume they would have what amounts to sponsor if they wanted to go to the bank for a loan or whatever).

My step-dad grew up in Kansas in small town with a small Mennonite community. Said they had various levels of relaxation on the technology bit, some had phones or only party lines for several houses, one owned a TV, another was a local limo driver of all things. Crazy how different they are despite having the same basic principle, just to a different degree.
 
(I assume they would have what amounts to sponsor if they wanted to go to the bank for a loan or whatever).

I'm not so sure they do much loans. Maybe now they do, but 20 years ago there were many stories of them buying farmland ($100,000-$250,000+) in cash. Kept the money hidden in stuff like those old 10 gallon milk jugs. At some point you gotta figure they would become a prime target for home invasions if they all kept that kind of money around, so maybe they are putting some in the bank now.

Did recently see one use a credit/debit card at Walmart, but it's hard to know if that was his card or the card for who he was buying stuff for (old people that are close to them and doing all their farm work for them trust them quite well...)

Use to never see them in town (except on their way to Walmart, working on someone's house, or at the farmer's market), but now I regularly see a woman, sometimes with her kid walking down main street (in a 'city' with a population 3500)
 
My mom used to work for a furniture store and they sold some Amish made furniture. The guy they dealt with over the furniture used email. My sister bought some food from them once, can’t remember what it was. She said it was really good but was a bit grossed out to find out it had lard in it.

I heard the fundamentalist Mormons sell home made dresses online.
 
So they are not like in the movie Witness after all? :undecide:
 
Some of the 'amish' products you have to wonder if it's 100% operated by amish, or it's someone selling stuff on their behalf. Amish electric fireplaces for one.

So they are not like in the movie Witness after all? :undecide:

That movie is 34 years old, back then things were obviously much different than today, in so many ways. Will have to be more specific about which parts of the movie you are talking about (I have not seen it).

Amish Mafia was a bogus TV series.

I know there has been at least one rape case (one victim, but raped multiple times over several years from her brothers), where the Amish community pleaded to have the case dealt with internally rather than to send the perpetrators to prison. Nasty rumors about the mother had spread around, but I tend not to believe those (supposedly had other children she drowned in a bathtub).
 
That movie is 34 years old, back then things were obviously much different than today, in so many ways. Will have to be more specific about which parts of the movie you are talking about (I have not seen it).
In the movie the amish are presented as very peaceful, decent and very clean people living basically as in the 19th century. They laugh at the mennonites for having cars and TVs and distrust anyone of English origin.
 
In the movie the amish are presented as very peaceful, decent and very clean people living basically as in the 19th century.

Less true today than in the '80's. They are comfortable using technology when needed, but it certainly doesn't control them like it does the rest of us. When in their buggies, they wave at every car driving past them (maybe not so much if there was a long line of cars, but if it's a car/minute they do). They do look down at some of our lifestyle choices, but almost every group thinks 'their way' is better than another group. There are always exceptions in every group.

They laugh at the mennonites for having cars and TVs

Probably still true for the most part. Even if a rare Amish does own a car or TV, I doubt they use it as often as Mennonites do.

and distrust anyone of English origin.

I would not doubt it if they trust people in their own group more than people from other groups, but again, that's true of many groups. I think more people trust Amish than the Amish trust non-Amish, because of that 'honesty' reputation that amish have built for themselves, regardless if that reputation is warranted or not. Most of the non-Amish in the US are a mixture of European cultures, so singling out English ancestry specifically would be difficult, would it not? IIRC, building my parent's house they had to be paid every day, not writing a check at the end of the project like most contractors would allow.
 
I see them on the roads in western michigan from time to time in their carts with horses. Have never known any personally or bought amish furniture though I see it advertised in a lot of places. It's supposedly the most well built stuff ever, but it's not cheap. It's like old school real wood furniture and costs 3-10x more than something you can get at ikea for example. Like we have a 6 piece dining set that is real wood, not laminated, but I think it's engineered, not one solid piece. It was around $900. Amish dining sets of similar size were over $5000. Supposedly they last forever though.

My wife's cousin wanted to reupholster his boat and was recommended to use this Amish guy to do it. So he went to the guys house and the work was good and the rate decent but the problem was organizing the job. The amish guy was allowed to talk on the phone for 20 minutes a day at his non amish friend's house so if you wanted an update on your boat you would call this number in this 20 minute window. He would just sit there and take calls I guess. Then he could offer no timetable of when he would be done. So my cousin ended up not using him.
 
Thanks for all the information. It seems they have somehow managed to keep going withing the contemporary world by using come modern technology alter all. But without embracing it.

You can certainly get by with 19th century level farming tech. You'll never get well off that way. But it's sustainable. They don't really need a lot from the outside. And they can sell some surplus to get what they need. They've recently expended out from Pennsylvania and Ohio and have colonies in northern Maine.

Yeah, what recently struck me was how their communities have been steadily expanding. Usually marginal groups tend to dwindle and eventually disappear.
 
I mean the appeal is real and I imagine they have a fair number of babies
 
I grew up around Mennonites. They do "fine", in that they are allowed to live in their closed-off communities by the government while also being allowed to sell their labour to actual citizens. They are also allowed to enroll in schools. They don't sell a great deal of crops. When they do, it's sold cheaply and off the beaten path. They mostly made their money in carpentry and roofing. Because they don't pay taxes or have any obligation to the state, they can afford to undercut competition by thousands of dollars.

They use modern technology when it suits them. True no-tech communities will also have no contact with modern society.
I also grew up among Mennonites and I'll quibble with some of this. Much of their economy is internal or barter, but they do deal with cash and sell to outsiders. Often they go for niche markets, such as heirloom and organic produce, grain for seed use, herbs, etc. They orient on products that do not lend themselves to mass production. They may be low tech but that does not mean stupid. As noted, woodworking and construction has great pride of place. They do pay taxes, particularly sales tax and property tax. If they work outside the community, income tax is withheld, but typically they will end up owing no tax come April 15.

Permissible tech is a fluid thing but like cold honey more than water. If it is 50 years out of date, they might consider it. Keep it simple is not a motto, it's religious dogma.

Thanks for all the information. It seems they have somehow managed to keep going withing the contemporary world by using come modern technology alter all. But without embracing it. Yeah, what recently struck me was how their communities have been steadily expanding. Usually marginal groups tend to dwindle and eventually disappear.
More than that, they are expanding. In areas where farming families are getting scarce, Amish are buying the land, eg western and central New York.

J
 
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