How comes there is no more a civ which is toward science ?

[SJSerio]

Why would anyone turn Rome into a science-civilisation? It just doesn't fit.

Who said that Rome would be a science Civ? I must have missed that comment. Personally, I see Rome's traits as being expansionist and cultural. However, now that you mention it...

I could see science as part of Rome as well. Perhaps one of there bonuses will give a small boost. Why? Well, they did give us some key developments in technology during their heyday. Improvements in sanitation, military technology and structure, architecture, among other things. It is not so far fetched for them to have a bit of a science bonus. Not their main "trait" to be sure... But certainly could be a complimentary trait.

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[stealth_nsk]

Dunno if you guys are blind, so I tried to make it easier to read. A boost to the eurekas is a flat out bonus to research... end of thread...

If you've read the thread you should notice China was mentioned as a civ with minor science bonus. And yes, it's minor, because it's only 10% and only to eurekas.

 

[Xur]

If you've read the thread you should notice China was mentioned as a civ with minor science bonus. And yes, it's minor, because it's only 10% and only to eurekas.

If you follow the eurekas, then you got a flat 10% boost all game - that's NOT minor. Its not that hard to get eurekas.

 

[stealth_nsk]

If you follow the eurekas, then you got a flat 10% boost all game - that's NOT minor.

Spartans already have the answer:

Spoiler :

If...

Its not that hard to get eurekas.

Let's wait and try. In preview videos a very good player Marbozir, playing on Prince difficulty set a goal to get as many eurekas as possible and managed to gather most of them, but still not all.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

All civs have some sort of indirect science bonus (often tied to making specific eurkas easier to get).

Currently there are no civs who the combination of a unique ability and unique improvment that both give direct science bonus.

 

[Xur]

Spartans already have the answer:

Spoiler :

If...

Let's wait and try. In preview videos a very good player Marbozir, playing on Prince difficulty set a goal to get as many eurekas as possible and managed to gather most of them, but still not all.

I usually play marathon/huge map, and I think it would almost be impossible not to get the eurekas with that extra time/scale. Maybe it's hard on quick/tiny settings, and I'm fine with that. Multiplayer is usually on quick/tiny, and multiplayer doesn't need another Babylon/Korea science civ.

 

[dturtle1]

Assuming Eureka's requirements aren't scaled with Turn Speed. You are also forgetting diminishing returns. The more Eureka's and Science you get, the harder it is to achieve those said Eureka's. You wont get all the Eureka's. The whole point of the system is to encourage you down different paths based on Map terrain and situation. I dont think even Marbozir, who purposely(at his detriment i might add) put off researching techs in order to get the Eureka got more than 75% of them.

One thing you can do is trust the developer. China's Eureka bonus is Paired with The Inspiration Bonus, which indicates to me that it is a minor bonus compared to say the free Wildcard(which is obviously strong) that Greece gets. At this time there is no direct Science Civ, there is a few different Civ's with minor boni to science. I believe Sumer will be that Civ and probably Russia as well. Considering the redistribution of Sciences power into Cultural, i dont think having a Science Focused Civ will be a bad thing.

 

[leandrombraz]

According to Pete Murray, Kongo can into space pretty good, so I would count it as scientific, though with no direct science bonus. Brazil also looks amazing for science, though it's because Brazil looks amazing for anything, rain forest adjacency bonus + cheaper great people is pretty good.

 

[dturtle1]

Population must still hold some strong sway over Science than because that it is the only real benefit Kongo gets. It is not so much science as Population Caps, Also extra Base yields from Great Works supports that. I wouldn't be surprised if Kongo ranked High In Food/Gold/Production stats. There is no way you can call them a Science Civ tho

 

[Xur]

Assuming Eureka's requirements aren't scaled with Turn Speed. You are also forgetting diminishing returns. The more Eureka's and Science you get, the harder it is to achieve those said Eureka's. You wont get all the Eureka's. The whole point of the system is to encourage you down different paths based on Map terrain and situation. I dont think even Marbozir, who purposely(at his detriment i might add) put off researching techs in order to get the Eureka got more than 75% of them.

One thing you can do is trust the developer. China's Eureka bonus is Paired with The Inspiration Bonus, which indicates to me that it is a minor bonus compared to say the free Wildcard(which is obviously strong) that Greece gets. At this time there is no direct Science Civ, there is a few different Civ's with minor boni to science. I believe Sumer will be that Civ and probably Russia as well. Considering the redistribution of Sciences power into Cultural, i dont think having a Science Focused Civ will be a bad thing.

However you people wanna twist and bend the facts - the fact is that China gets a science boost and that your individual skill or desire to reap that reward is up to you. It is factual incorrect to claim that there isn't a civ with a boost to science.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

However you people wanna twist and bend the facts - the fact is that China gets a science boost and that your individual skill or desire to reap that reward is up to you. It is factual incorrect to claim that there isn't a civ with a boost to science.

Exactly, Its a +25% boost to research for all Eureka techs...
If you had a +25% research to say 1/2 of the techs in Civ5, that would be overpowered.

 

[Jabulani]

Someone here took me not entirely right, I mean, my statements about the science been banned was of course an hyperbole, to hightlight the fact that science has been relegated to a minor aspect of the game when in the past it was one of the major ones.

Maybe too much, ok, but now I bet that within the average player and and average difficulty level, the average game will be therefore focused on culture and religion only. What e weird world.

It would be cool to have the statistic which shows f.i. out of 100 games how many are won by religius victory, culture victory etc.. I bet militaristic and above all science visctories will be at the bottom of the ranking.

It wasn't enough, you have to reach 3 separate goals in order to achieve a science victory. Why ???

I would like to have a civ whitout religion, with a basic culture and basic economic but plenty of Leonardo Da Vinci, Copernicus, Galileo, Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Benjamin Franklin, John Nash, etc..... with super modern naval warfare and scientific discoveries, where basically the ancient and medieval period are only a small preliminary step to the bigger modern gorgeous scientific eras plenty of naval sophisticated warfare above and below water !

In few words, everything that has been ignored on Civ VI

Take it easy


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[KrikkitTwo]

Someone here took me not entirely right, I mean, my statements about the science been banned was of course an hyperbole, to hightlight the fact that science has been relegated to a minor aspect of the game when in the past it was one of the major ones.

Maybe too much, ok, but now I bet that within the average player and and average difficluty level, the average game will be therefore focused on culture and religion.

It would be cool to have the statistic which shows f.i. out of 100 games how many are won by religius victory, culture victory etc.. I bet militaristic and above all science visctories will be at the bottom of the ranking.

It wasn't enough you have to reach 3 goals in order to achieve a scince victory.

I would like to have a civ whitout religion, with a basic culture and basic economic but plenty of Leonardo Da Vinci, copernicus, Galileo, Einstein, Stephen Hawking, John Nash, etc..... with super modern naval warfare and where basically the ancient and medieval period are only a preliminary step to the bigger modern scientific eras plenty of naval sophisticated warfare !

Infew words, everything that has been ignored on Civ VI

Take it easy

I seriously doubt the average game will focus on culture and religion.... people will get a campus very early (unless they want to rush a religion)... because you need science to get the advanced military units. (no advanced military units are unlocked by culture..except UU)

Science will still be king... just more of a constitutional monarch of medieval England, than an Absolute monarch of renaissance France.

and if you want to play a science focused game (where your culture just beelines all the science boosts) I'm sure that will be quite possible.

Its probably the ideal path for a Conquest victory (if you don't care as much about angering the AIs because you are going to kill them all eventually anyways.)

 

[Jabulani]

I seriously doubt the average game will focus on culture and religion.... people will get a campus very early (unless they want to rush a religion)... because you need science to get the advanced military units. (no advanced military units are unlocked by culture..except UU)

Science will still be king... just more of a constitutional monarch of medieval England, than an Absolute monarch of renaissance France.

and if you want to play a science focused game (where your culture just beelines all the science boosts) I'm sure that will be quite possible.

Its probably the ideal path for a Conquest victory (if you don't care as much about angering the AIs because you are going to kill them all eventually anyways.)

I get you, ok, but I suspect that every civ stats, every building stats, every bonus etc.. everything is just a number within a pre-determined hidden equation that must outputs the very same result each time.

Otherwise it would be necessary 3 light years to beta test and balance the whole stuff.

That's another reason why I would like to play an ouf the scheme civ, freedom of thinking and playing, not necessarily a +2 here, -2 there etc....

Science would be an excellent way to such a creative civ, something partially seen within alpha centauri, if I recall it right, where the customization let you have freedom of thinking and creating a unique game each time.

I fear now is much more a +2 religion here, -2 gold there, -1 science here, + 1.5 faith there, just a huge hidden Matrix with low science and low creative thinking, also in terms of playability and strategies, I mean, just +1 culture here, -1 faith there, +3 amenties over there but -1 gold here..etc. etc.

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[Ivan Hunger]

Maybe too much, ok, but now I bet that within the average player and and average difficulty level, the average game will be therefore focused on culture and religion only.

This is definitely not true. Remember that culture is not how you win cultural victory. Culture is how you prevent someone else from winning cultural victory.

Everyone getting these culture boosts from their Unique Infrastructures actually makes cultural victory harder, not easier, to achieve.

Science victory is the only victory type that's completely passive (except score victory, if you count that). It's just a race to see who can get to the end of the tech tree first. Every other victory type can be countered in some way. Domination can be countered by shoring up your defenses. Cultural can be countered by outputting more culture. Religious can be countered by theological combat.

But the only way to counter science victory is to beat the other guy to the finish line and win the race yourself. It is inherently different from the other victory types in this regard.

 

[dturtle1]

Exactly, Its a +25% boost to research for all Eureka techs...
If you had a +25% research to say 1/2 of the techs in Civ5, that would be overpowered.

Yes, but Everything in Civ6 seems to be Overpowered and if, The Incredibles as taught us anything, then Nothing is Overpowered. Can you say that Brazil's adjacency bonus is also not as strong ?. I would say 50%-75% of Eureka bonuses is what the designers would expect.

No one claimed that there is no Civ's with a Science bias, someone brought up China a few pages ago. There is still no Science Based Civ. Hell someone brought up Kongo, for pretty valid reasons too, Doesn't make Kongo a Science based Civ

 

[dturtle1]

This is definitely not true. Remember that culture is not how you win cultural victory. Culture is how you prevent someone else from winning cultural victory.

Everyone getting these culture boosts from their Unique Infrastructures actually makes cultural victory harder, not easier, to achieve.

Science victory is the only victory type that's completely passive (except score victory, if you count that). It's just a race to see who can get to the end of the tech tree first. Every other victory type can be countered in some way. Domination can be countered by shoring up your defenses. Cultural can be countered by outputting more culture. Religious can be countered by theological combat.

But the only way to counter science victory is to beat the other guy to the finish line and win the race yourself. It is inherently different from the other victory types in this regard.

Or Stop him from having so much science. Military might is the greatest counter of them all. Diplomacy is also a counter to Science based victories, Nothing like being constantly dragged into war of not your own choosing

 

[Jabulani]

Or Stop him from having so much science. Military might is the greatest counter of them all. Diplomacy is also a counter to Science based victories, Nothing like being constantly dragged into war of not your own choosing

Indeed, that was just my usual tactic in Civ V.

When I was good enough I simply searched for the best civ out there and I focused my attacks on him. Then to the second one etc... this way I didn't need to win the science race, I just needed to keep the strongest civ in control, even if my science was worst than the one of the strongest civ.

Sometimes I failed and lost, but that's another story

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Who said that Rome would be a science Civ? I must have missed that comment. Personally, I see Rome's traits as being expansionist and cultural. However, now that you mention it...

I could see science as part of Rome as well. Perhaps one of there bonuses will give a small boost. Why? Well, they did give us some key developments in technology during their heyday. Improvements in sanitation, military technology and structure, architecture, among other things. It is not so far fetched for them to have a bit of a science bonus. Not their main "trait" to be sure... But certainly could be a complimentary trait.

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Those things would make me think they're more of an organized/infrastructure-building civ.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Population must still hold some strong sway over Science than because that it is the only real benefit Kongo gets. It is not so much science as Population Caps, Also extra Base yields from Great Works supports that. I wouldn't be surprised if Kongo ranked High In Food/Gold/Production stats. There is no way you can call them a Science Civ tho

Actually the food bonus allow Kongo to run specialist which other civs can not afford at the time. This could mean that Kongo could run more scientist then other civs. Population give science just from existing and civilization that have a large population will likely be ahead in the science and culture race. Kongo have rather light production bonuses as population is not as important for production as for science and while the extra food may allow it to work extra production tiles you can also invest the extra food into scientist.

Even civs such as Scythia have potential science advantages. Scythia military bonus will make it rather easy for this civ to found the largest empire. Each campus give one great scientist point and each building provide one point as well so if Scythia may found 15 cities by medieval and give each of them a campus and a library it will produce a total of 30 great scientist points per turn and likely a significant amount of science from the population of such a large empire and so many libraries.

To me it seems like science is very nerfed compared to civilization V. The two big factors in my opinion is that % buildings are gone (so science no longer multiply the effectiveness of your economy) and the difference between units from different eras are much less pronounced (and there are many factors that can make units stronger so science is not the only way to make units stronger).

Take the conquistador for example. It have a base strength of 55. Now add in inquisitor, a great general and the founder belief holy war. If you sum these togther you get a total strength of 80 which is more then the 70 strength infantry, a unit that is two eras later then the conquistador. Yes a renaissance unit can defeat a modern unit if the renaissance unit get the correct support.