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How do ya'll deal with aggressors?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by automator, Feb 25, 2006.

  1. automator

    automator King

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    Northwest USA
    I thought my current game would be my first ever sucessful experiment on Prince. My first city ended up on a river, on the coast, with stone and copper both within the fat X. I build the pyramids and had five or so cities before I cranked up a war machine.

    Looking at the foreign advisor, everyone was "pleased" with each other and either pleased or cautious with me. The exception was Manu Masa, who had everyone either cautious or annoyed with him. So, I chose to pick on him, because he was weaker than I, and had some nice luxury resources. However, when my forces were being shipped over in galleys, Montezuma declared on me. I looked at our relations, and the only negative modifier was "-3 This war sours our relationship". DUH! Positives were there for open borders, good trade, and that I'd given him resources and techs.

    I held him off (he was using horse archers and I had plenty of spears), but eventually I fell.

    How do you deal with an agressor who is stronger than you when you first meet, therefore abolishing any hope of a preemptive strike?

    I've attached the first and last autosaves that I have. I think the first is from pre-war times and the last is just before I retired out of frustration (he finally began to talk with me, but no matter what I offered, would not take peace).
     
  2. picardathon

    picardathon Noobzor

    Joined:
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    The lesson learned here is....
    DONT TRUST MONTY!!!!!!
     
  3. Fragment

    Fragment Chieftain

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    :lol:

    Montezuma, do you hate him now?

    :lol:

    Next time you got Monty next to you, you take revenge. Prepare for war immediately. When you're ready, and he still hasn't declared, declare yourself.

    Everybody's doing that.

    :lol:

    Regards.

    PS I'm no warmonger myself, but that's what we do.
     
  4. Mordraken

    Mordraken Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
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    Yup, Yup, Yup. I hate that guy. I'm in a game and he's declared war on me twice. Gimme about 10 more turns and I'll bomb his a$$ back into the stone agem. grrrr....

    But enough about him... the way I'd try to deal with an attack by a more advanced civ - you will have to go for numbers and hunker down. If you can make him lose 3 units to every 1 you lose, he'll eventually give up the war of attrition. It may take you moving some units into pillage his lands though. You will have to get EVERY city that you own (within range) to focus on military though, and don't stop even if it looks like you're pulling away. Just keep going, and if you find that you do have a large military and he doesn't (any more) then start invading.

    The thing I find in this kind of circumstance - it's hard not to take it personally. I now have a personal vendetta against Monte, and want to eliminate him more than I want to win the game!
     
  5. AngryPants

    AngryPants Warlord

    Joined:
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    This similar to the lesson my country learned after the Vietnam War: don't fight any more wars in Vietnam.
     
  6. Dueck

    Dueck Walrold

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
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    Location:
    Calgary, AB
    In order to avoid aggression, always:
    - Have a decent defense in each city
    - Have at least one city building military units
    - Escort workers near borders

    In the case of aggression, if you've been keeping up your military, you should at least have a fighting chance.
     
  7. Hans Lemurson

    Hans Lemurson Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Ok, one thing that became immediately obvious to me: Montezuma beat you BECAUSE HE BADLY OUT-TECHED YOU! He is using longbowmen (to which you have no counter) and it will take you 26 turns to research feudalism.

    How did he get such an advantage? It may have something to do with the fact that your GNP is 56 commerce! With a little citizen-tweaking, I brought this to 64, with no loss in productivity.

    Beijing: 33, as expected from a capitol.
    Shanghai: 12, could be higher, but this looks like your production city.
    Guangzhou: 6, pity the Aztecs took away your incense...
    Nanjing: 3, ...this little runt only pays its bills becuase of its trade-route.
    Xochicalco: 10, it's on the coast, with some fish.

    Ok...you basicly have 2 good cities; Beijing and Shanghai. Guangzhou could be decent in the short-term, if it were actually developed, but has no useful tiles after size 11 (7 mountains/deserts). I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you let the Aztecs pillage all of its improvements. That iron should be mined, the Rice farmed, the incense Plantationed, etc.

    Ok...I can understand wanting some luxuries, but conquering a nation that you do not border is difficul at best. I'm not exactly sure why you thought you could actually win. Mansa may be low in score, but not much below you. He may have a small army, but yours doesn't exactly have any bragging-rights either. Furthermore, Mansa Musa's unique unit is the skirmisher (str. 4), and your strongest unit is the axe-man (str. 5), probably because you didn't mine your iron until late. You have neither the overwhelming numbers (at least 2:1) nor the military quality (attackers being at least close to the defender's strength) to take any cities, let alone match him in the field of battle. Moreover, didn't you have Open-Borders with Montezuma? Why did you attempt an amphibious invasion, and why so far away?

    You were surprized that Montezuma spontaneously declared war on you? Did the aggressive trait in the Monty's description get over-looked? It does more than just make his units stronger than yours, it makes the AI warlike. Mansa Musa looked like a target to you? Well you were probably a pretty juicy target to Montezuma yourself. Under-teched, under-developed, weaker smaller military, and with some nice health-resources!

    I will admit that you are to an extent a victim of circumstance, what could you do about that large desert-belt to your south? A few things come to mind, such as making more efficient use of your good land and trying to claim good city-locations early-on. New Sarai could probably have been yours if you rushed there (though 1 square south is better), and maybe Shanghai should have been built a square to the right and at least 1500 years earlier.

    What were you doing in that time? By 1000 BC you should already have 3 cities built (including capitol). Don't tell me...I know. You were going wonder-happy! Stonehenge, Great-lighthouse, Pyramids, Chichen Itza (wtf?)...

    DON"T DO THAT!!! You have stone, you can hold off a bit on the pyramids, and if you aren't going for religions, you can probably ignore Stonehenge too (Oracle might have been useful though...). The Great-lighthouse is giving you 8 commerce, but another city could have given you that, easily. You could even have built it later, since most of the Civs it looks like don't have coastal capitols. You should have been building settlers and workers, not wonders.

    I saw that the Hanging-Gardens was on Beijing's queue. Why?!! Do you need the extra health? Do you need the extra population? Your civ's happiness-limit right now is size-7 (8 in capitol). Half of your cities have :mad: next to them! Temples provide 1:), I don't know why you didn't build any. Your cities are basicly running on Representation, and State-Religion, 'cause you don't have any luxuries (trade?) and no :) buildings neither. A size-8 city with 1 unhappy citizen is worse than a size-7. 3 unhappies is just insane! Whip :whipped: those cities into shape by building temples in them. This is more important than military units, since it will enhance your productivity (less food spent on the :mad:, and higher max-pop).

    Speaking of productivity, your worker has far better things to be doing than building a road in a forest, on a peninsula, 3 squares away from any city. Guangzhou has no city-improvements to speak of! A farm on that rice would bring in 5 food per turn (it has fresh-water from the oasis), and the iron would give 2Food 4Hammers! Those alone would almost double the productivity of the city. Hmm...all of these USELESS roads makes me think that...you were doing automated workers? AAaaargh!!! HULK SMASH!!! That's another no-no. Until all of your cities have their critical reasources developed, do not automate your workers. Personally, I never automate them, and that give me a big efficiency-advantage over the AI.

    So...in conclusion: The Aztecs attacked you, and your civ is doomed because it is weak and stupid. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to their own, etc. Is this game salvageable? Perhaps 1000 years ago, but not now. It would take one of those guys who regularly win on Emperor and above to extract you from this mess. I'm only a Monarch-player, and have a strong aesthetic sense about city-placement (I can't tolerate poorly placed cities), so I couldn't do it.
     
  8. Hans Lemurson

    Hans Lemurson Prince

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    Ok, I did end up working on it.

    I was too harsh the first time, the situation is salvageable, and the Aztec war potentially winnable. As of 1100 I have acquired several more technologies; Feudalism, Metal-casting, Literature and Theology through tech-trades, and Civil Service with a merchant, I finished Construction and am 2 turns away from Feudalism. I traded away health resources for more important luxuries, especially Ivory. War elephants will make Montezuma's army obsolete for quite a while. The Chinese fleet destroyed the Aztec, and is now blockading all their ports. I have 3 War-Elephants, and as soon as I get me some catapults, I'm gonna go take me an Aztec city. I am actually using the 3 workers available to develop Guangzhou and repair Aztec Damage. I have Iron and the second Rice connected up, and I'm now trading the now redundant copper to Mali in echange for Game and 4 gold/turn.

    I only lost one city in the war, and that was the captured one that was doomed anyways. If possible, I plan to raze it and build a city on the island 2 squares to its north for the sheep. I have Longbows and Elephants vs. Monty's longbows, I have Elephants and Spears vs. his Horse-archers, and I have axemen for his spears. I have a superior military right now, and I will attack when I have the advantage.
     
  9. Vonreuter

    Vonreuter Warlord

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    In the last game I played, I managed to cut off both America and Azteca from the mainland on small, thin peninsulas, which gave me a huge advantage over both.

    As soon as I had colonized the mainland, Aztecs, who shared my faith (they cared for their brothers and sisters of the faith just enough to attack them...) declared war and attacked with chariots.

    However, I had just managed to find Iron on the grasslands near my capital (I love it when that happens) and built my first Praetorians. The first Praetorian was already rushing to the front lines when war started and got there just in time to defend my city, which had been defended by warriors only until then (I hadn't researched archery, because I wanted to get Iron Working ASAP). The Praetorian managed to stop the initial onslaught by two chariots and some warriors, and I got reinforcements just before the main stacks came.

    So, war started and I soon found myself building Praetorians in all of my cities to stop the Aztec hordes. After I got enough of them, the tide turned and I went on the offensive. However, as soon as I had conquered one city, Washington declared war on me, even though they were Pleased with me!

    Well, I quickly made peace with the battered Aztecs and hurried my legions to the North to stop the American assault. There was one frightening stack in New York, but for some reason Washington didn't move it down south where it would have taken at least one city before I managed to get my defences up. Perhaps New York was afraid of my nearby city, which limited their supply route to just a one square gap between my cultural borders and the sea. Actually this small gap became my savior - after I had bolstered my defences, I moved a bunch of Praetorians (four, initially) on a wooded hill right in the corner of my cultural borders, next to the gap, and with ingenious guerrilla tactics, I cut off the American road that connected New York to northern America and ambushed any units that came stumbling from the north to aid New York. After that, I'd retreat my wounded troops back to the cover of the wooded hill and its +75% bonus.

    I'm ranting. Back to the topic:

    After a while, I persuaded Montezuma, the guy who I had beaten just before America declared war, the same despot who had lost a city to my victorious legions, to join me against the Americans! I did this twice during my war against the Americans and now, as we approach the time of Gunpowder, my first enemy is now my first and best friend! I have +5 bonuses from Military Struggle and even more from our shared religion (which is now Christianity). America, who probably declared war because of Monty's machinations (the attack I had feared never came, and I quickly took advantage of this to take New York and the Great Lighthouse which was built in it), is now in dire straits. I just conquered Boston and they are down to Chicago as the capital.

    My point? Monty just takes a bit of schooling, but once you show him who's the boss, he'll be your friend forever. I really don't think Monty will attack me again, but if he does, I'll let you know. Meanwhile I can bribe him with just a few techs to attack anybody I want!

    Cry havoc and release the Jaguars of war!
     
  10. Uiler

    Uiler Emperor

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    It's strange. In my latest game, Monty was peaceful, quiet and friends with everyone (including people of different religion from him). And no I did not have random AI personalities on. It was a Noble game.

    What happened was early on I converted Monty to my state religion (Buddhism). So he and I were buddies. He then attacked Isabella (who was a different religion) and asked me to join in. I did so, taking all of her cities. I converted my other neighbour Peter to Buddhism so we formed a Buddhism block. Qin, who was on the same continent was Christian but he also by far had the largest army in the world...He was always Pleased with Monty and Monty was Pleased-Friendly with Qin, Peter and Me. I actually wanted to take out Monty after Isabella but Peter would have been Annoyed at me and my army was exhausted (though still capable of taking out his capital which was right next to the captured Spanish capital - everyone was really squished).

    So Monty, Peter and I became best buds. Then we met Huana and then Caesar. Monty and Huana and Caesar despite being different religions Monty was Pleased with H and C and the feelings were returned. Then Monty switched to Christianity but still remained Pleased with Peter and I for the rest of the game. Besides the first war with Isabella he did not attack ANYONE in the game, including Peter who was about the same size as him (they both had 3 cities) and a different religion. I can understand him not attacking the other civs as we all were more powerful than him (though really, has that stopped Monty in the past?!).

    It was very strange seeing a Monty that liked everyone, never attacked anyone and who everyone liked. Actually he was quite useful as I somehow managed to piss off Qin and Caesar during the Middle of the game (they were Pleased by the end which is good because Qin's power shot up to like 3 times everyone else's in the Industrial age - read he was building a freaking big army). When they didn't trade stuff with me because they were pissed off with me, they *would* trade with Monty and Peter who were Friendly with me...
     
  11. Hans Lemurson

    Hans Lemurson Prince

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    Ok, 1190 AD.

    In 2 decisive battles, I destroyed an estimated (I lost count:D ) 8 chariots and 14 horse-archers, 4 longbows and 2 jaguars. Due to effective usage of terrain (hunker on hill, let them come to me), I did this at the cost of 1 archer, 2 spearmen (both above 10exp :(), and an Axeman, and I had to let my Iron get pillaged.

    Now I think I can go and bring the fight home to the enemy. Unless they have another Stack of "Doomed vs. Elephants" up their sleeve. That might put a crimp in my plans, depending on its size.
     
  12. Hans Lemurson

    Hans Lemurson Prince

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    Ok, 1380 AD.
    Calixtlahuaca is mine. Kamikazi'd 3 catapults then walked over the rest of the defenders. With Mali now taking Montezuma's attention to the western front, I believe I may have enough forces to take another, maybe 2 more cities. Heck, If I keep the catapults coming, my troops could be marching on Tenochtitlan by 1500. I'm in a pretty bad spot here, just barely behind everyone else in technology, but they all have about twice the land I do. If I can conquer the Aztecs, I may yet earn a place in the history books. My only hope for victory lies in their demise. At what cost? The cost of the rest of my economy. The cost of having an early-medieval army when gunpowdrer rears its ugly head. But I think it'll be worth it. After all, what choice have I? Strike and kill now, or fade into obscurity. Th Aztec lands shall be mine!

    Here's the save Automator: View attachment 117737
    That is how you deal with an initially powerful aggressor. Hunker down in fortified locations as their endless waves sweep over you, cut them down when they are vulnerable, and once attrition starts taking its toll, slowly advance your now swelling armies (due to low-losses) and take the fight to the enemy. Having a neighbor declare war on them is also helpful, since it generally keeps their armies hunkered in the cities where they can get torn to pieces by your artillery.
     
  13. mutax2003

    mutax2003 Rider of China, 4-3-3

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    I played your save game a little differently than Hans. First I rushed some spears and axes for defense, and whittled down Monty's invasion of mostly horse archers and chariots. I got literature in trade with Mansa, and also bribed France to declare war on Monty with two techs. In the capital, I chopped and got the Great Library, next I set it to build national epic. With a Great prophet, I cash it in some beakers toward divine right, got it eventually after some research, and then traded it around for machinery, feudalism, and metal casting. With my workers, I focused on cottages and connecting up the resource. It is 1280 AD, I massacred a group of Monty's horses with spears, and then signed for peace by giving him 80 gold. Now I have switched civic to organized religion for faster infrastructure building, next I will settle a city next to the horse in the west, then build some catapults, cho-ko-nus, and macemen (after civil service), and then go full-tilt after Monty. Revenge is best served cold, and shall be sweet. Attached is the save file.
     
  14. automator

    automator King

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    Thanks all.

    I'm not a good player. I've been able to work my way up to Prince, finally, after many grueling losses at Noble.

    Rationale behind wonders -- It was the only thing I had going for me. I didn't want the war to continue, and it wasn't ending. I figured I'd eventually get him to commit to peace, then I could continue with my planned peace and harmony, eventually getting a diplo win.

    In all those turns from the start of the war, I'd taken a city of Monty's. He ended up crashing about a dozen or so longbowmen and horse archers against my two (each) axes/spears/archers in that city. I was consistently taking out at least three of his attackers for every one of my attackers, but couldn't keep up against his pillaging (which is why the iron isn't mined, the rice not farmed, etc.)
     
  15. Hans Lemurson

    Hans Lemurson Prince

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    Hmm...I think Mutax may have had the slightly better strategy here, since he actually got the Great-Library and founded Islam.

    On the other hand, It's 1480 for me and my troops are marching on Tenochtitlan, having taken a total of 3 Aztec cities. I think I have the capacity to wipe them off the map, but war-weariness is beginning to be an issue.

    I have 3 military units with 5 promotions; 2 war-elephants and a Longbow. That's what happens when you massacre an enemy horde. A combat-5 Elephant backed up by a Cho-ku-no basicly gives me immunity against Monty's entire army. What's left of it, that is.

    Upon examination:
    Yeah, I think Mutax did it right getting the great library. All those Great-People points will easily outweigh any early conquest. I do not understand though, why did you not buy some ivory for war-elephants? Those are truly the best counter to Monty's horse-rushes, much stronger, and can be used against other units as well.

    I hadn't really looked before, but I just realized that this map has the longest river I have ever seen. 80 unit-lengths, beginning next to Medina and ending in the frozen north. Perhaps it is just because the map size is so large.

    In 1490, Mansa Musa declared peace with Monty, and sensing that easy-conquests were over, I too sued for peace. Monty was so bad off that he gave me his entire treasury and Teotihuacan in tribute.
     
  16. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    In my current game, Monty seemed a total wimp...Something to do with my shooting ahead of him in techs.

    His rifles are no match for my panzers, bombers and gunships!

    So, when the Huayna Capac had been crushed, and my Panzers turned into Aztec lands, Monty did put
    up a bit of a fight. the war is not yet resolved, and I am looking forward to concluding the battle tonight!

    I will marshall my divisions and deliver the final hammer-blow!
    I tell thee, cottage-building is the key!

    I had fighters in 1799, and that was during a lazy, mess-around game!

    :)
     
  17. Rast

    Rast Warlord

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    I'll second that. It doesn't matter what your relations are with Monty, he'll declare on you if he senses a weakness along your border, even if you have a superior military (for example, your cities are minimally garrisonned because you're fighting a war on another border. No, that's never happened to me - move along, nothing to see here... :goodjob: )
     
  18. Brighteye

    Brighteye intuitively Bayesian

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    I just had my first encounter with Monte. I had just developed my own continent, having boxed the Russians into a small part of it and then killed them (which felt so bad: Catherine was at +11 or so with me - must be my stunning good looks and tanned Incan skin).
    Monte had killed the Egyptians and razed all their cities on another continent, so we met, I founded a city and dumped a couple of infantries in it, and two turns later Monte declared that I shall pay for insulting the Aztec empire, even though I'd known him for such a short time that I hadn't had the chance!
    Well, his macemen and catapults made a nice feast for my infantry and cavalry; I researched tanks the next turn and captured his empire with the loss of one unit, which was probably a good thing given how few units I actually used (10 tanks, 2 cavalry and a few infantry to sit in cities).

    I love Monte! The key is to take him out early if he's next to you, but if he's not then he can be great fun to trample when you have a tech. lead.
     
  19. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    I finally finished him off...His last (unpronouncable) city was taken by my elite panzers and mech inf.

    Out-teched and out-classed - His aggressive trait led to his units bravely fighting a vastly-superior foe.

    Impressive Aztec courage was shown in the face of complete destruction...:)

    He only offered peace once, when he was two cities away from doom.

    But by that point, my troops were like wovles with a taste for Monty-blood;
    To stop the war at that juncture would be a betrayal of everything my civ stood for!

    Final victory went to Bismarck and Germany!

    :king:
     
  20. voek

    voek Prince

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    Monti is great. You just know you will be attacked. You even can't call it backstabbing. Just ignore diplomacy with him and prepare for war anyway...
     

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