How do you think BERT is doing?

The idea that people weren't interested in Beyond Earth conceptually is pretty flawed. That's why the player numbers were high in the first place - people bought and played the game in large numbers but stopped playing it very quickly. Guess why? Because it's not very replayable.

Nailed it. BE devs don't seem to know how to make these games interesting enough for repeated playthroughs. Bugs abound and many of the mechanics still don't work the way they should. Incentive to expand just isn't there and all sense of purpose is quickly drained away by the limited, unimpressive victory conditions.

Some games are about the destination, others are about the journey. The best games are about both. BE/BERT fall short of either. It's a monument to mediocrity and utter lack of awareness.
 
Honestly the game feels like the B-team designed it. Like it was handed down to the interns or something... That's why its mediocre and has no replay value, incompetence or laziness/cash-in or both.

Its the first firaxis civ game ( And I've been playing since Civ 1 ) that I've got bored of completely after only 80ish hours. ( 50 for BE, 30 BERT ) Most Civ games i played over 1k hours. Civ 5 = 1.8k hours according to steam and i liked AC:AC a lot. BE is just the epitaph of mediocrity.
 
People are still conflating "I don't like it" with objective reports of quality.

You could make the argument that people who like BE are therefore deluded, or similar. But that argument applies for people that managed to sink 1,800 hours into CiV considering how horrifically broken that was on release.

We're all suckers, for one version of the game or another. Just so happens that this is the BE subforum, and there are other subfora for the other titles.
 
Honestly the game feels like the B-team designed it. Like it was handed down to the interns or something... That's why its mediocre and has no replay value, incompetence or laziness/cash-in or both.

Its the first firaxis civ game ( And I've been playing since Civ 1 ) that I've got bored of completely after only 80ish hours. ( 50 for BE, 30 BERT ) Most Civ games i played over 1k hours. Civ 5 = 1.8k hours according to steam and i liked AC:AC a lot. BE is just the epitaph of mediocrity.

Summed up my experience and thoughts exactly.

And I'm thinking their A and B teams were on Civ 6 and XCOM 2, so basically BE/BERT got stuck with the C or D team at best.

BE is objectively worse than BNW, with more bugs and useless mechanics and far less replay value.

It's a crushing disappointment overall, and quite unfortunate for what was once a very fulfilling series.
 
Putting in nearly 1k or over hours into every Civ title since 2, including AC, until BE releases... Surely that says something about BE.

All titles did something great enough to keep me hooked, BE didn't do ANYTHING great. Its all just so mediocre.
 
Incredibly mediocre. I'm still putting hours into BNW.

But BERT? Dumber, less aggressive AI than Civ 5, bugs aplenty, bafflingly unintuitive interface, less engaging victory conditions and just poor design choices overall.

Even the automation AI is worse than in Civ 5. Unbelievable.

Some people will keep crossing their fingers for the next expansion hoping things will get better but that's frankly atrocious. At this point, I've lost all faith in this design team.

Firaxis needs to let these people go and bring in designers that actually know what they're doing.

They need to completely rethink their approach to the Civ series if this is the kind of quality they think is acceptable.
 
@spfun:

Absolutely, it says something about BE for you, for your personal measuring stick of what you find fun.

It also doesn't account for changing tastes over time. I put hundreds of hours into Dawn of War, but I'm just not as interested in classical RTS design as I was. I put hundreds of hours into SMAC (if not thousands; it was one of the first games I ever owned), but stacks of doom and the horrific imbalances with that game put me off these days (especially when there are games with similar themes that I enjoy more available).

Length of time spent playing a game does not make that game good, universally. Otherwise I could say that BE is therefore a great game because I've played it more than most other Steam games I own. But that makes no sense; it's a personal measure.

Individually, there's no resolution here, no common point to be reached. We all have different opinions (and some present those more forcefully than others). As a group, we're a data set for 2K / Firaxis to draw their own conclusions from. Whether that's in a second expansion for BE, or Civilisation 6, who knows.

I can only hope they don't listen to the people making bad arguments. That's a very good way to kill off a game series, and I've seen it happen before.
 
You know what will potentially kill off a game series? Making a BE quality level sequel for Civ5...

Can only hope whomever designed BE/BERT has nothing to do with Civ6. Or perhaps Firaxis have just lost touch with making good games.
 
I really hope it's the former.

If the BE's gross mediocrity and lack of vision makes it into Civ 6 then it's time for people to start looking elsewhere for their 4x fix.
 
*shrugs*

Vanilla BE was incredibly better from a technical standpoint from vanilla CiV. Rising Tide brought a slew of content and mechanical changes comparable to G&K.

I think the biggest issue is the re-using of the same game "engine" (not entirely accurate, but most gamers won't ever know the difference); it leads people to feel like the game is superficially "samey". Presumably the next Civilisation game will have a more dramatically-overhauled engine.

Maybe it won't. I don't know, but I don't exactly have high hopes for consumers understanding the difference. It isn't their fault that they don't, either, but the level of entitlement that comes from a new game engine every Civilisation release is a bit staggering at this point. You're not always going to get a brand-new game engine with brand-new everything every time.

Personally I'm still amazed that people rely solely on a single game (or series) for complete satisfaction from a whole genre. I'd never play just one RTS game, and I don't play just one 4x game (or similar). Endless Legend, Sword of the Stars (the original, not the sequel), SMAC, CiV, BE, even handheld console variants like Advance Wars . . . I like a whole range of games from a particular genre, if I like the genre itself.
 
I really hope it's the former.

If the BE's gross mediocrity and lack of vision makes it into Civ 6 then it's time for people to start looking elsewhere for their 4x fix.
Time for Blizzard to enter the genre and make it mainstream.

Sure, you'd have to pay 15€ or so for each Civilization and 10€ to change the name of your leader, but if the game is typical Blizzard-Non-WoW-Non-Release-Diablo-3-Quality... daaaaamn.
 
Ah, a few years ago I'd have been like: "A Card game? They'd never do that." - and then they made a card game. It's true that a TBS doesn't really fit their current setup of games, but in the end... they can only make so many games that fill similar kind of roles before they start cannibalizing their own fanbase (which, one could argue, is already happening to Starcraft 2 -> Heroes of the Storm).

A totally different genre with a totally different playerbase is certainly the next, logical step!
 
Time for Blizzard to enter the genre and make it mainstream.

Christ... get out of my head, Charles.

I've had this exact same thought so many times.

Blizzard's resources, knack for streamlining and quality control standards would do absolute wonders for the 4x genre.

It's never going to happen for reasons already stated but damn that would be something.

They're already branching out into so many genres with their own unique (and fun) spin each time.

Could it happen? Playing different races and forging new alliances contrary to established lore?

It's just too good to be true.
 
Time for Blizzard to enter the genre and make it mainstream.

Sure, you'd have to pay 15€ or so for each Civilization and 10€ to change the name of your leader, but if the game is typical Blizzard-Non-WoW-Non-Release-Diablo-3-Quality... daaaaamn.
It's amazing how much quality you can get into a game for release when you charge as much as they do and take as much time to develop a product as they do. Seven-year release cycles would be a dream for any other developer ;)
 
Ooh... Stellaris. Thanks; added to wishlist. :D

I'll be much more into that type of theme than I am with EU4.
 
The most important thing to take note, is who the game designers are.

The complete lack of awareness, the mediocrity, why people think it's the C or D team instead of the A or B team working on BE, is because it's actually true.

The original designers of Civ5 were Jon Shafer, Ed Beach, and Scott Lewis. Since Civ5, Jon Shafer has left Firaxis, Ed Beach has been switched to another Firaxis project, and I'm unaware what happened to Scott Lewis.

The designers of CivBE and RT are now Will Miller and David McDonough. You can see them on the BE Youtube channel.

People try to make the connection that Civ5 started terrible, but turned amazing. Within months significant balance patches were made. By the release of G&K, the game was clearly on the path to greatness. But that was Jon Shafer, Ed Beach, and Scott Lewis.

It has been over a year now, with the first expansion. I gave RT a long, honest, hopeful playtime. But the gameplay is just non-existent. Will and David have either not played their own game, or seriously lack any sense of awareness.

Lets look at this analytically. Make a list of things from the top of your head, that BE has changed from Civ5. Almost every single change that Will and David decided on, made the game worse. From the tech web (Which became far more confusing while simultaneously being less meaningful than Civ5 tech rushing strategies), to removal of luxuries, the wonders, the lack of specialization (flat yield buildings and lack of great people means every city is the same), the simplified economy (fresh water and forests mean nothing anymore, tile improvements mostly useless and definitely not worth teching for), and an AI changed to become extremely passive. Every single gameplay change made the game worse.

I wonder if Firaxis seriously just asked two random interns whether they "wanted to try their hand at game design", thinking talent and artform can be simply taught to anybody.

In any case, these two are the anti-midas. Everything gold they decide to change, turns it into something worse. I gave RT a long trial, and nearly everything they did was a terrible return on investment (hydracoral was pointless for all the work making it "grow and spread") or outright made the game worse. The game I feel is even worse now than at release, because their design skill is just not there.

Diplomacy 2.0 - the AI is even MORE passive, and judges friendships based on a criteria no world leader or strategist would EVER use. The AI loves the player when they're already doing good. The player gets a free, peaceful ride to the victory condition. You don't even need military units anymore because everyone loves you for "building improvements around your cities."

Not even the warmonger AI's play to win because they're too busy praising you for your "great satellite coverage", while all of them barely ever make progress towards the victory condition themselves, even on Apollo. They fall drastically behind on affinity because they can't do quests and are terrible at expeditions - nothing at all was done to make up for this even when giving them affinity boosts is trivial. The AI outright plays to lose, which shouldn't happen in a game where Montezuma used to unexpectedly wipe me out.

Salvaging artifacts, artifact buildings, hybrid affinity bonuses, diplomatic agreements, all add ridiculous economy bonuses and completely and utterly explode and trivialize the economy even more, without any changes from BE original bring the economy back in line.

Will and David, if you don't know what you're doing, then dear god, please ask someone for help. Ask them to send someone from X-Com, ask freaking Sid Meier himself for gods sake. You two are going to single-handedly sink the beloved Civilization franchise, and that is a massive shame to not only the players, but everyone else on BE who has done a great job on the art, atmosphere, and art direction. The theme itself is what is keeping you afloat. The gameplay design is where the problem is.
 
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