How In The Heck The Third World Screwed Up

[Blackadder]

Originally posted by Maj


At the same time, I'm thankful that those populations do not indulge in the same level of consumption as the average Westerner
-Maj

What about the people of Tonga, are they said to be the ehm 'widest' people on Earth because of the type of food they eat or the quantity?

Fayadi (and others who don't seem to know this),
former Communist countries are counted as 2nd world countries.

Africa's problems seem to be that the dictators use charity money to buy weaponry to challenge neighbours while some condemn the West to get more money. Meanwhile there are still (unofficial) slavers about, operating through Arab nations which have no emancipation act in force.
Perhaps a ruthless dictator is needed for some countrieswhile others need true democracies. Racism (as in Zimbabwe) don't help the economy. Religious scuffles (take a multi-faith nation like Ethiopia for example) don't help either.

The choice of Egypt as a 'good' colonial possesion may be in doubt, considering it was under Ottoman imperialism after the invasion and British in 1882 (the date of occupation) Many African areas were taken in the 1890-1900, with Liberia and Abbysinia left alone.

quote:
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Originally posted by FearlessLeader2

I suppose the only current answer is to go in there with guns and shoot a few dictators, and turn the countries over to a democratic process. At least then there would be some accountability...
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What a shame that any nation can call itself a democracy and run the country like a dictatorship..........

 

[Strik]

The problem in Afrika lies in the fact that the borders were drawn by europeans as straight lines. You know have countries with different tribes who all want the superiority over the others, so coup after coup. If the borders were made by the tribes there would not be any internal problems. They probably would have wars over land and attack each others country.
Personally I think Afrika should be kept apart, even how cruel it may be. Let them fight it out. Their fights are 1000's of years old and almost culturally integrated. I think the situation is hopeless.

 

[Knowltok 2]

A couple of points:

1. If you don't know how the trade system works, you have some research to do. If nothing else, call it, "knowing your enemy."

2. The US dollar is not backed by gold or anything else. It is backed 100% by faith in the US Government. I know this may terrify many of you, but the World Economy as we know it has as its underpinnings the US Treasury Bill. It is the current definition of a "risk-free" investment. It all comes down to the faith that the US government will ALWAYS pay its debts. (This is not chest thumping, its just how the world economy currently works. The US dollar could theoretically be replaced at any time as the most sloid currency whenever there is more faith in another nation's economy).

3. The problem with waiving debt is the concept of "once bitten, twice shy." If it is waived, someone looses. They will then be asked to make new loans for the infrastructure needed. Will they make them? What interest rate will they charge?

4. Something more to think about: There are actually 5 worlds:
1st: Industrialized "Free"
2nd: Industrialized "Communist"
3rd: Nations with the ability to industrialize in the near future given current resources.
4th: Nations with the ability to industrialize in the distant future based on untapped resources
5th: Nations with little hope of industrialization due to current conditions and lack of resources

I think it is important to keep in mind that these definitions were created a long time ago, and that we usually lump 3,4, and 5 all together under the banner of "Third World."

5. A good point is made in looking at the artificial lines in Africa causing problems. In reality, it is tribalism that is causing the problems. The artificial borders didn't help, but the people just aren't ready to have a first world economy. Mainly because you can't have just the wealth part of the West. You have to have the legal system, the social values, and everything else that goes into "western" society if you want the same benefits. This is not to say that you can't go on alternate path and achieve wealth, but you can't just proceed directly to Go and collect your $200.

 

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Cunobelin Of Hippo


And there's something wrong with that? That's exactly what Europeans once were, the only difference being that there was a huge time difference. If they had been allowed to progress naturally to the modern stage as we were, they wouldn't be in this mess. I'm not going to go ranting about the wrongs of the past, but if you're looking for a root of the problem, that's it. We disrupted the natural progression.

The natural progression in africa was happening at such an incredibly slow rate that it would have taken many thousands of years to catch up to europe. You cant blame the european race for dominating the africans because thats just the way nature goes, the strong dominate the weak.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Blackadder
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Originally posted by FearlessLeader2

I suppose the only current answer is to go in there with guns and shoot a few dictators, and turn the countries over to a democratic process. At least then there would be some accountability...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a shame that any nation can call itself a democracy and run the country like a dictatorship..........

Not sure what you're saying here. Perhaps I was unclear. I said turn the countries over to a democratic process, not have a coup d'etat and CALL it a democracy.

 

[Maj]

What about the people of Tonga, are they said to be the ehm 'widest' people on Earth because of the type of food they eat or the quantity?

I'm afraid I don't know quite what it is you're getting at. Could you please clarify and/or expand on this statement.

-Maj

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Maj


I'm afraid I don't know quite what it is you're getting at. Could you please clarify and/or expand on this statement.

-Maj

Unless I am horribly mistaken, Tonga, and a couple of its neighboring states, have a high population of Hausa tribe members. In the Hausa tribe's traditions, obesity is a sign of wealth, sexual vigor, and a number of other positive things. I've heard tales of chiefs so fat they had to be carried around by a dozen strong men on litters. I think it all has something to do with elephants, which they consider to be sacred.

This could all be wrong, it is an old memory, and I have no idea where it came from.

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Originally posted by PinkyGen
I think there are mainly two reasons why the 3rd World is doing poorly.

1. As well pointed, colonialism. It did provide some benefits, but it also provided a lot of harm, and I doubt colonization was good for Africa.

2. In Europe, and the US, modern capitalism and liberal democracy was created over centuries of evolution. It is not so easy to transplant this 'alien' system into 3rd world countries. Some have learned quickly (Japan and to a lesser extent Asian Rim Countries), but for most its a more difficult concept to grasp. It's not because they are lazy, or dumb, it is just that we have had a long time to create a system our modern system, and that they have not.

Good points. What most westerners or europeans fail to understand is that 'western' ways of thinking aren't universal. Humanity, capital, industry, money, namedropping, geography, economy. Its all concepts rooted in european, and in particular, in christian thought.

Its a way of thinking many africans and asians have adopted, some successfully, others not. The bottom line is; should we still, here 100 years or so after the great Scramble for Africa, walk around oblivious thinking that all western/european ways are valid for everyone else? I think not.

Don't you guys ever feel constrained by this european desire to name and control everything? Europeans normally think the world can only be understood and 'enlightened' when everything gets dissected and put into small drawers. But perhaps it is perfectly reasonable to live a life without all this greed, longing and despair for "something better"...

I get sick and tired of it sometimes. It has its benefits, like electricity and hot water. But god, does it often boils down to miserable, weak human existences living in great, dirty cities, succumbing to a swamp of material overweight, hypocrisy, guilt and indifference. Watching TV in their small confined spaces, and waging electronic wars without taking a stand.

 

[Blackadder]

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2

Not sure what you're saying here. Perhaps I was unclear. I said turn the countries over to a democratic process, not have a coup d'etat and CALL it a democracy.

Well, I was basically saying it is easy to do the first part and overthrow a current regime. It can however be even harder to keep the country a democracy. A dictatorship can leave a huge pwoer vacumn.'The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Thanks with the Tonga piece, I had only heard a little about why they do so, but I think you're right.

 

[Padma]

Originally posted by Knowltok 2
4. Something more to think about: There are actually 5 worlds:
1st: Industrialized "Free"
2nd: Industrialized "Communist"
3rd: Nations with the ability to industrialize in the near future given current resources.
4th: Nations with the ability to industrialize in the distant future based on untapped resources
5th: Nations with little hope of industrialization due to current conditions and lack of resources

I think it is important to keep in mind that these definitions were created a long time ago, and that we usually lump 3,4, and 5 all together under the banner of "Third World."

Actually. the term 'third world' is even older. And it is decidedly West-centric(?).

Many ages ago, when I was just a lad, we had the 'Old world' (Europe) and the 'New world'. Life was simple. Then people began to notice that there were folks who didn't live in the 'great western democracies'. Africa. Asia. What do we call them?? Aha! They must belong to yet another, a 'third world'! As third world countries tended to be 'behind the power curve' as we saw it, the term became somewhat pejorative.

As the politicians/economists/etc. started assigning every country to its 'rightful place', they began to realize that the communist countries weren't quite on par with the West. (A later phrase, following the breakup of the USSR put it succinctly: Russia is just Upper Volta with nukes.) So they began to realign their lists as shown by knowltok2.

And Blackadder, I agree with you. You can't just plop a democracy into place without some serious lead-in. I remember an election in South Vietnam. It was dangerous to go out campaigning anywhere, and much of the populace didn't know and/or didn't care about the 'issues'. So they just posted their pictures on the ballot. "Gee, he looks like he'd make a good leader." Makes you feel real good about imposed democracy.