How Libertarian Are You?

"State enforced currriculum" is perhaps the best argument against public education:p

I don't actually disagree with public funding for education though, its essential to opportunity. I get that. I support any actual state controls over the process though. Replace it with vouchers.

Once again I proffer that this is a kneejerk Libertarian response with little understanding about the system you're proposing nor for the system you intend to replace.
 
Libertarianism is all about not aggressing against someone's life, liberty, or property without their consent, if you don't believe in that you definitely don't count as libertarian.

And your "Why not" question is pretty absurd. Here's a simple answer, if you can use force to steal from me, I can use force against you to prevent you from doing so:p

You know the drill, GW. Would you please prove, that you have life, liberty and property?
Would you please prove, what steal and force is?
 
I can count the number of congressmen worthy of ANY salary on one hand:p (Two fingers actually;))

Oh? So you're intimately aware of all 435 US Representatives and 100 Senators? You know every bill they've ever sponsored, every bribe they've ever taken, every good and evil they've done in their (often) vast tenures as congresspeople and are able to weigh them out and only find two of these 535 very diverse and interesting people worthy of any kind of financial recompense to speak of?

Please, elaborate. Go through every single congressperson and explain to me in simple terms why each of them doesn't deserve a salary.

Unless you, of course, don't actually know very many of them at all and are just making blanket statements without really understanding what you're saying at all...
 
In all seriousness though, the average American makes 34,000 a year, so why they should get over 200,000 a year on the taxpayer's dime baffles me. I wasn't really suggesting they starve to death. I get why the President makes so much because his life is very very stressful and his job is 24/7. But congressmen work 3 days a week. There's just no good reason they should make more than the average salary or so.

The good communist response is if you don't support such large salaries for government employees, I assume you don't support million dollar salaries for CEO's? Should everyone's income be equal to the average? Should income be abolished entirely?

And like hell congressmen don't have a stressful job, have you seen their schedules? I have no idea how they managed to goddamn operate like normal people. And imagining the president has it 20 times worse is cringe worthy on the mind. I don't care who is president, they deserve a medal if they managed to stick it out for four years without going insane.
 
Libertarians generally aren't in favor of such bonues. Hard core libertarians tend to oppose government protections for limited liability protections, and do not believe that the free market could give rise to firms large enough to control enough resources to make such salaries possible.

Are they literally insane?
 
Oh? So you're intimately aware of all 435 US Representatives and 100 Senators? You know every bill they've ever sponsored, every bribe they've ever taken, every good and evil they've done in their (often) vast tenures as congresspeople and are able to weigh them out and only find two of these 535 very diverse and interesting people worthy of any kind of financial recompense to speak of?

Please, elaborate. Go through every single congressperson and explain to me in simple terms why each of them doesn't deserve a salary.

Unless you, of course, don't actually know very many of them at all and are just making blanket statements without really understanding what you're saying at all...

Hey, you could look at the bright side of this. Apparently Dommy can count to 2, which means his math education has been more successful than his economy education.
 
Oh? So you're intimately aware of all 435 US Representatives and 100 Senators? You know every bill they've ever sponsored, every bribe they've ever taken, every good and evil they've done in their (often) vast tenures as congresspeople and are able to weigh them out and only find two of these 535 very diverse and interesting people worthy of any kind of financial recompense to speak of?

Please, elaborate. Go through every single congressperson and explain to me in simple terms why each of them doesn't deserve a salary.

Unless you, of course, don't actually know very many of them at all and are just making blanket statements without really understanding what you're saying at all...

To be fair, a broad generalizing statement is often fine to make if you know what you're talking about and can provide data.

Problem is, he's not the guy to do that.
 
We're parasites to the government?

Government is far too inefficient for that.
I don't see how efficiency relates to having a parasitic relationship?

"State enforced currriculum" is perhaps the best argument against public education
Maybe it's a better idea to actually make these arguments than to vaguely allude to them which only creates the implication that you don't actually know them.

But you (unsurprisingly) haven't answered my question yet. If the state doesn't enforce curricula, who creates them? Individual education facilities? If so, how are employers/customers/clients supposed to be able to judge what a particular curriculum is worth?

The states can and should build highways. Other than that, all of this stuff should be privatized.
What about highways that cross state borders?

I can count the number of congressmen worthy of ANY salary on one hand (Two fingers actually;))
I hope you don't want to imply that the only congressmen worthy of salary are those you politically agree with? Because that's ... rather undemocratic.

In all seriousness though, the average American makes 34,000 a year, so why they should get over 200,000 a year on the taxpayer's dime baffles me. I wasn't really suggesting they starve to death. I get why the President makes so much because his life is very very stressful and his job is 24/7. But congressmen work 3 days a week. There's just no good reason they should make more than the average salary or so.
I think the idea behind this is to make them less susceptible to corruption. If you're already making a lot of money, you're less likely to accept bribes. Of course that doesn't really work out in practice.

Oh, and by the way, please tone down your use of the :p smiley. It makes your posts look condescending.
 
I'd be willing to wager that fully 50% of all Congressmen GW would be willing to pay with taxpayers' money would be Ron Paul. His son might even be the other 50%.
 
I'd be willing to wager that fully 50% of all Congressmen GW would be willing to pay with taxpayers' money would be Ron Paul. His son might even be the other 50%.

In the interests of complete fairness, I've decided I'm going to go ahead and do a full list of every congressman and senator from California, looking into each of their backgrounds and providing definitive judgments on whether or not they do in fact deserve to be paid. It's CFC's own better know a district (representative)!

Mike Thompson (D) California's 1st District

Mike Thompson is the standing rep of the the First District, encompassing various parts of the Northern Bay area, including Napa, Yolo, Mendocino, Humboldt, and Sonoma Counties. He was formerly the Rep from the 2nd district, but won the 1st district seat after redistricting, and has held the 1st district position since 1999. Thompson is considered to be a "Blue Dog Democrat". Wikipedia cites that in his tenure he has voted along party lines 91% of the time.

Although he is a staunch Catholic he has been a strong defender of pro-choice principles, even combating the Church itself over the issue. Mike Thompson is most notable for his Strong Conservationist Beliefs. The League of Conservation Voters has given him a 92% rate of voting (presumably "correctly") on key conservationist and environmental issues. He's also received an 88% rating from the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund. In 2012 he voiced his opinions about a water reform bill that the house was voting on, and even voted with Bush on the Healthy Forests Initiative.

I'd ultimately pay Thompson for his staunch conservationist principles and the fact that he's more than willing to cross the aisle when his environmental ideals find better tack on the Republican Side.

Wally Herger (R), California's 2nd District

Wally Herger represents CA's 2nd district, encompassing a wide swatch of central northern California, including the cities of Chico, Red Bluff, and Redding. His background is that he's a mormon coming from oil money who started his political career in the mid-seventies, but was first elected to the 2nd district in 1987.

Herger hasn't really been challenged seriously electorally as the 2nd district encompasses one of the reddest portions of the state. He currently serves on the House Ways and Means committee, in particular in the subcommittee on trade and the subcommittee on Income Security and Family support. As Herger's district is represented primarily by farmers, Herger has done much to defend farming interests during his tenure as a representative, supporting bills to "bolster free and fair trade". He has worked on the Herger-Feinstein Quincy Library Group Forest Recovery Act, which (based on its name) appears to be a bipartisan federal project which lays down a system amenable to both logging and conservation interests whereby forests can be sustainably reduced and replanted in such a way as to avoid mono-species forests. His other major project currently appears to be a repeal of the 3% withholding tax, which currently applies to governments with expenditures greater than 100 million USD on services from for-profit companies. Again, another project aimed at protecting and expanding business.

I don't really agree with Herger's views on a lot of issues, but he does stick to his guns, and seems to actually care about serving his constituency. Plus he also seems willing to reach across the aisle (with both Feinstein on conservationism and Congressman Meek (D-FL) on the 3% repeal) on issues he considers important. On that basis, I'd pay this man too.

Dan Lungren (R), California's 3rd District

Representative Lungren's district covers a majority of Sacramento and Solano counties, in addition to parts of Alpine, Amador, and Calaveras counties. Lungren was formerly a representative for California's 34th District (Orange County area) in the late 70s and throughout the 80s, before leaving to serve as California's Attorney General under Pete Wilson. After losing the Gubernatorial Race to Fmr. Governor Gray Davis he moved north and was re-elected to the house in 2005.

In the 80s Lungren was a bit of a media darling, particularly during the Reagan era. He was a staunch supporter of the "Tough on Crime", as well as the "Moral Majority" movement. During his tenure as the 34th's representative he was a member of the House Judiciary Committee and supported the Comprehensive Crime Control Act which was a sweeping anti-crime act passed in the 80s. During his tenure he also supported sanctions against employers who hired illegal immigrants, although he also sponsored a temporary guest-worker program.

As Attorney General for the State of California he continued to sponsor a number of "tough on crime" type bills, most notably California's infamous "Three Strikes Law" which gave life sentences to anybody convicted of the same offense three times, as well as "Megan's Law" which required Law Enforcement Agencies to make information on sexual offenders available to the public.

Under his second tenure as a representative Lungren voted for the PATRIOT Act. He has also stated that he opposes any bill which would give amnesty to illegals, with his stated concern being that such an act would be unfair to those immigrants who spend large amounts of time and money going through proper channels. He's also been a large advocate for ending earmarks in the legislature.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) Lungren has been one of the latest victims of this latest round of redistricting and has lost his reelection bid to Ami Bera, by a margin of just under 6000 votes.

I'm not so sure about Lungren. He's been in politics awhile, and I certainly don't like his support for the PATRIOT act and 3-strikes laws. But there's nothing about him that seems particularly dishonest. He has his principles and he sticks to them. I'd be lying if I said I was sad to see him go, but I'd still pay the man.

Tom McClintock (R), California's 4th District

California's 4th district encompasses North-East California, including Tahoe and Truckee. This region was recently (like several years ago) hailed by Nate Silver as the new Orange County.

McClintock is actually a name that's familiar to me, and should be to any Californian who has followed state politics over the last 10 years or so, as he was a frontrunner in the early stages of the 2003 recall gubernatorial election (the one that saw Schwarzenegger elected as governor of the state), but, obviously lost out. He also ran in 2006 for Lieutenant Governor, but again lost out. He started his tenure as Congressman in 2009. McClintock was actually endorsed by both the Republican Liberty Caucus (a libertarian political action committee) and your boy Ron Paul, who issued a fundraising email on McClintock's behalf during his 2008 election bid.

Politically McClintock has been a long-time opposer of tax-increases of any kind. He opposed Gray Davis's attempt to reinstate the notorious car tax. He also was one of 40 notable Republican representatives of the Republican Study Committee who frequently voted against the Republican Party and vocally expressed displeasure with House bills. He also opposed the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, which would have allowed government and military forces to detain Americans citizens and others indefinitely without trial.

This guy actually sounds like somebody right up your alley. I don't agree with his obstructionist tendencies, but again, he's a very principled guy and he sticks to his guns. He doesn't blindly go along party lines and he's vocal in his opposition. Pay the man.

Doris Matsui (D), California's 5th District

California's 5th District almost wholly encompasses California's capital city of Sacramento and its hinterlands. Doris Matsui first won election to the House in 2005 in a special election in response to the death of her husband Bob Matsui, who had previously served as a US representative of 26 years. She was born in an internment camp, and prior to being a representative she worked primarily as an advocate for the democratic party and a lobbyist.

Matsui doesn't appear to have done very much newsworthy during her tenure as a representative. She is a member of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce and as such has focused on turning Sacramento into a responsible, green city. She took a similar tack to Speaker Nancy Pelosi's when asked about the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, saying that when the bill gets passed people will realize its benefits and push for a stronger health care reform. Most controversially, Matsui is an advocate for earmarks, stating that they help representatives get the most to their constituents.

Again with Matsui, I don't really know what to make of her as she hasn't done all that much. She does seem legitimately concerned with helping her constituency though. And I can appreciate that, so I give her a pass. Pay her.

Well that's the first 5 districts down, only 46 more (and 2 senators) to go. Maybe I'll pick this up a bit later. Feel free to provide analyses of your own for representatives of your respective home states. It beats the hell out of whatever the thread is currently. You also get to learn a crapton about your state that you didn't know previously!
 
Oh? So you're intimately aware of all 435 US Representatives and 100 Senators? You know every bill they've ever sponsored, every bribe they've ever taken, every good and evil they've done in their (often) vast tenures as congresspeople and are able to weigh them out and only find two of these 535 very diverse and interesting people worthy of any kind of financial recompense to speak of?

Please, elaborate. Go through every single congressperson and explain to me in simple terms why each of them doesn't deserve a salary.

Unless you, of course, don't actually know very many of them at all and are just making blanket statements without really understanding what you're saying at all...

I was kidding and was implying that it was only the ones that I agreed with that deserved to get paid.

More specifically I think the partisan hacks don't deserve to get paid, although I'm not seriously proposing that we don't pay them.

The good communist response is if you don't support such large salaries for government employees, I assume you don't support million dollar salaries for CEO's? Should everyone's income be equal to the average? Should income be abolished entirely?

And like hell congressmen don't have a stressful job, have you seen their schedules? I have no idea how they managed to goddamn operate like normal people. And imagining the president has it 20 times worse is cringe worthy on the mind. I don't care who is president, they deserve a medal if they managed to stick it out for four years without going insane.

The difference is that CEOs don't use force generally. They serve the public.

I'd be willing to wager that fully 50% of all Congressmen GW would be willing to pay with taxpayers' money would be Ron Paul. His son might even be the other 50%.

:goodjob:
 
The difference is that CEOs don't use force generally. They serve the public.

Uh

Wow

Seriously, GhostWriter16, can you do me a favor? It seems like you think that CEOs serve the public but that its government doesn't. And it seems intrinsical to you. Can I please ask you to, if you do believe this, type the following sentence:

"The intrinsic difference between government officials and CEOs is that CEOs don't use force generally. They serve the public."

Because i'm gonna sig it so bad you didn't even see it coming

you're implying the ceos serve the public more than a government

you're implying it's in popular interest to overpay shareholders

you're implying that ceos do not use force (which is strange coming from a guy who thinks stuff like unilateral monopolies and taxation is extortion, violence or theft)

you're implying that the point of a democratic government is to leech off its people

i mean seriously

i dare you

if you do not think that, type another sentence that I can sig instead

because i'm sure it will be equally relevant to my interests

please formulate a short quote for my signature
 
@Owen: your post is like a bottle of fresh water in the desert that is this thread. Finally something substantiated and nuanced ... it was really interesting to read. It'd be a shame for this to get lost amidst the usual GW fanfare in this horrible thread, so I really suggest you start your own thread about it, should you want to continue it. Maybe some people even join in with equally elaborate opinions. I'd definitely read it at least.
 
@Owen: your post is like a bottle of fresh water in the desert that is this thread. Finally something substantiated and nuanced ... it was really interesting to read. It'd be a shame for this to get lost amidst the usual GW fanfare in this horrible thread, so I really suggest you start your own thread about it, should you want to continue it. Maybe some people even join in with equally elaborate opinions. I'd definitely read it at least.

I would endorse this idea except we already know how such a thread will play out. It will start off reasonable and a few people will post some stellar comments.

Then GW will say something insane and the rest of the thread will be about him.

Abort that thread before it's born, I say.
 
How about ignoring GW for a change? We already have two dozen threads to tell him that his opinions are stupid.
 
@Owen: your post is like a bottle of fresh water in the desert that is this thread. Finally something substantiated and nuanced ... it was really interesting to read. It'd be a shame for this to get lost amidst the usual GW fanfare in this horrible thread, so I really suggest you start your own thread about it, should you want to continue it. Maybe some people even join in with equally elaborate opinions. I'd definitely read it at least.
Actually, Owen's is indeed an excellent post.

It would be an interesting exercise to do for the UK MP's as well: determining how far I think they're worthy of their pay.
 
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