How powerful is Satan?

[Garry Denke]

Two things, profound truth;

1) Creators do not die on crosses,
2) and Jesus Christ is the Creator.

Lucifer, Devil, Satan

The Catholic Church Saints

Saint Ampère, André Marie (1775-1836)
Saint Archimedes (287-212 B.C.)
Saint Aristotle (384–322 B.C.)
Saint Avogadro, Armedeo (1776-1856)
Saint Bernouilli, Daniel (1700-1782)
Saint Bohr, Niels Henrik David (1885-1962)
Saint Boltzmann, Ludwig Eduard (1844–1906)
Saint Born, Max (1882-1970)
Saint Boyle, Robert (1627-1691)
Saint Brahe, Tycho (1546-1601)
Saint Brunhes, Bernard (1867-1910)
Saint Bruno, Giordano (1548-1600)
Saint Cavendish, Henry (1731-1810)
Saint Charles, Jacques Alexander César (1746-1823)
Saint Clerk-Maxwell, James (1831-1879)
Saint Copernicus, Nicolas (1473-1543)
Saint Curie, Pierre (1859-1906)
Saint da Vinci, Leonardo di ser Piero (1452–1519)
Saint Darwin, Charles (1809-1882)
Saint Davy, Humphry (1778-1829)
Saint de Coulomb, Charles Augustin (1736-1806)
Saint Dulong, Pierre Louis (1785-1838)
Saint Edison, Thomas Alva (1847–1931)
Saint Einstein, Albert (1879-1955)
Saint Euclid (333-266 B.C.)
Saint Faraday, Michael (1791-1867)
Saint Fermi, Enrico (1901-1954)
Saint Franklin, Benjamin (1706–1790)
Saint Galilei, Galileo (1564-1642)
Saint Goethe, Johann Wolfgang von (1749-1832)
Saint Haeckel, Ernest (1834-1919)
Saint Haldane, John Burdon Sanderson (1892-1964)
Saint Halley, Edmund (1656-1742)
Saint Harvey, William (1578-1657)
Saint Herschel, William (1738-1822)
Saint Hipparchus (160-125 B.C.)
Saint Hippocrates (460-377 B.C.)
Saint Hooke, Robert (1635-1703)
Saint Huxley, Thomas Henry (1825-1895)
Saint Huygens, Christiaan (1629-1693)
Saint Kelvin, William Thomson (1824-1907)
Saint Kepler, Johann (1571-1630)
Saint Leakey, Louis Semour Bazett (1903-1972)
Saint Leslie, John (1766-1832)
Saint Lorenz, Konrod (1903-1989)
Saint Lyell, Charles (1797-1875)
Saint Mariotte, Edme (1620-1684)
Saint Matuyama, Motonori (1884-1958)
Saint Mendel, Gregor Johann (1822-1884)
Saint Michell, John (1724–1793)
Saint Michelson, Albert Abraham (1852-1931)
Saint Newton, Isaac (1642-1727)
Saint Oppenheimer, J. Robert (1904-1967)
Saint Pascal, Blaise (1623-1962)
Saint Planck, Max (1858-1947)
Saint Petit, Alexis Thérèse (1791-1820)
Saint Priestley, Joseph (1733-1804)
Saint Ptolemaeus, Claudius (90-168)
Saint Roentgen, Wilhelm Conrad (1845-1923)
Saint Salk, Jonas Edward (1914–1995)
Saint Skłodowska-Curie, Maria (1867-1934)
Saint Torricelli, Evangelista (1608-1647)
Saint Tyndall, John (1820-1893)
Saint Venturi, Giovanni Battista (1746-1822)
Saint Volta, Alessandro (1745-1827)
Saint Wöhler, Friesrich (1800-1882)

(the first 66)

http://www.overpopulation.org/whyPopMatters.html

The Last Judgment

1. Abortion
God said, abortion is now acceptable on your planet when solely desired by the embryo mother; there are too many souls on your planet, and many new developing planets need old souls.

2. Birth Control
God said, birth control is now acceptable on your planet when solely desired by the male and the female; there are too many souls on your planet, and many new developing planets need old souls.

3. Death Penalty
God said, death penalty is now acceptable on your planet when solely desired by the jurisdiction; there are too many souls on your planet, and many new developing planets need old souls.

4. Euthanasia
God said, euthanasia is now acceptable on your planet when solely desired by the body's owner; there are too many souls on your planet, and many new developing planets need old souls.

5. Embryonic Stem Cell Research
God said, embryonic stem cell research is now acceptable on your planet when solely desired by the embryo owner; there are too many souls on your planet, and many new developing planets need old souls.

6. Human Cloning
God said, human cloning is now acceptable on your planet when solely desired by the donor(s): however; there are too many souls on your planet, and many new developing planets need old souls.

7. Marriage
God said, marriage is not acceptable on your planet; as Jesus wrote in Matthew at 22:30, for in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God on heaven.

It is done.

G-d

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, I guess that sums it up.

 

[Elrohir]

I suppose in some ways I am an nihilist, though I do believe secular ethical systems are possible. I certainly don't believe in absolutes that can't be proved or otherwise have no evidence for them (apart from the bare minimum I need to, such as my senses are accurate).

You really don't get this, do you?

Nothing can be proven absolutely. Period. We can only prove things if we make certain underlying assumptions which are inherently unprovable, and then building off of those assumptions. (For instance - my unprovable assumption is that God exists, and from that I build a moral code of conduct) If you have an argument as to why my assumption is particularly unlikely, or you don't like what I have used it to build, then say so. But simply saying that it isn't valid because it isn't proven absolutely is nonsense.

If by "evil exists" you mean that some people do bad things, then I can agree with you (and there's evidence for it). If you mean that evil is some sort of malevolent force that exists on its own, then that's just superstitious silliness.

-Drachasor

I don't think evil exists in the same way atoms or light do. I don't think it has physical substance. I do think it exists, however, in the same way that I think the souls of human beings exist. (Truth be told, I don't think evil itself is independent of beings with free will)

Right, you assume that the Universe exists, and go from there. Anything else requires proof to be considered as a possibility.

Why? Why do you get one unproven assumption, if I can't don't get any? Who decides what unproven assumptions are A-OK to make, and which ones aren't?

If you have a problem with my basic assumptions, then be specific and point them out. But just saying "You haven't proven it, so I don't have to listen to you!" is ludicrous.

And if we got that basic assumption wrong, then hey, it doesn't matter anyway, because we don't exist, so no loss.

Agreed.



And am I the only one who thinks Denke is off his rocker?

 

[Erik Mesoy]

And am I the only one who thinks Denke is off his rocker?

No. Not at all.

(This thread has really derailed...)

 

[warpus]

Why? Why do you get one unproven assumption, if I can't don't get any? Who decides what unproven assumptions are A-OK to make, and which ones aren't?

Of course you get one - that the Universe exists. If you choose not to assume that, you don't even get to make an argument. So your options are clear: Assume that the Universe exists, or don't say anything at all, because it would be meaningless (something you already agreed with).

(For instance - my unprovable assumption is that God exists, and from that I build a moral code of conduct)

Not all unprovable assumptions are made equal.

That the Universe exists is a fairly reasonable assumption to make. You are grasping at straws here.

 

[Elrohir]

Warpus, perhaps you could deign to explain why my unproven assumption is so terribly unreasonable? I've asked again and again, but you guys aren't responding. I'm not going to keep doing this - simply saying "It's unproven, so we can't take it into consideration" is bogus when you yourself do the same thing. (And make many more unprovable assumptions, I might add)

 

[Ecofarm]

No. Not at all.

(This thread has really derailed...)

Denke has struck again!! I'm honored to have been present during a Denke event. The link you provided (and links therein) are the funniest stuff I've read in a long time! By the way, did anyone take a look at the list of Saints? I think it's just random names from history (although the dates of their lives seem to be correct). I really cannot discern any pattern or relation between them! Maybe they are all scientists

As soon as I get my "Deities and Demigods" book, I intend to prove that Loki could pummel Odin, Bealzelbub, and that demon who kinda represented Satan.

 

[warpus]

Warpus, perhaps you could deign to explain why my unproven assumption is so terribly unreasonable? I've asked again and again, but you guys aren't responding. I'm not going to keep doing this - simply saying "It's unproven, so we can't take it into consideration" is bogus when you yourself do the same thing. (And make many more unprovable assumptions, I might add)

It's not reasonable to assume whatever you want; it has to be justified. In the case of the Universe existing, this is a pretty reasonable assumption. You look around, you see the Universe. If it doesn't actually exist, then this is all some sort of a big trick, perpetrated by some insanely powerful entity. It's the ultimate conspiracy theory.

 

[holy king]

who the hell believes in satan?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@warpus: Or conversely it all exists within your own head, and there is no trickery about it.

@holy king: lots of people.

 

[Elrohir]

It's not reasonable to assume whatever you want; it has to be justified. In the case of the Universe existing, this is a pretty reasonable assumption. You look around, you see the Universe. If it doesn't actually exist, then this is all some sort of a big trick, perpetrated by some insanely powerful entity. It's the ultimate conspiracy theory.

And I say believing in a Creator of this same universe that we see is just as reasonable.

who the hell believes in satan?

I do?

 

[MobBoss]

But you are right in that I myself attribute naivety to younger people, I've always thought of you as a twenty years old, at the most.

Then you are either not smart enough to look at my profile, or not paying enough attention when I refer to my age..which is fairly often.

Now the reason I find you naive is because you write things on the level of a person who believes in fairy tales.

Oh...wow...never heard that one before. Except of course constantly from bigoted and rude atheists.

People in “the church of satan” who murder people are nothing but deluded/deranged murderers. They obviously need psychiatric help and getting locked up, not an exorcist.

I never said exorcist. Again, you talk as if evil doesnt exist. It does.

I am not denying the existence of evil/bad people.

No..you just think they are mentally ill. I assure you, there are plenty that do evil and are not mentally ill what-so-ever. Ignore it at your own peril.

I am just of the opinion that “evil” people do evil things because they gain something on the expense of others, and probably suffer from some more or less deep going mental disorder, that makes them unable to relate emotionally to their victim.

Heh.

So you believe the obvious situation of some Moslems labelling Christians as heretics and “evil” and Christians doing the same thing in return is untrue and a laughable notion?

I cant really say I have seen a lot of christians saying that Muslims are heretics. Do you have a source?

Judging people as “evil” because they are of a different faith is a great sin in my opinion.

Again...where has anyone done this?

Again, murdering people in the name of Satan is mental illness and criminal.

Heh...you really cant come to grips that there indeed could be people who do this and not be mentally ill can you?

Furthermore, do religious people do good because they are actually good, or do they do this because of the rewards they believe are in store for them in the afterlife, actually being selfish?

Rofl...only someone like you would try to skew charitable giving into a selfish act. God asks us to be charitable because ultimately, it isnt our stuff we are being charitable with....its his.

You do not know much of reality do you?

A tad bit more than you it seems. Well, more than a tad bit.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I've got Deities and Demigods (the ancient 1st edition AD&D rules version). What stats do you need?

Odin has 400hp, AC -6, #ATT2 and is a cleric 30th/druid 14th/ranger 18th/MU 30th/bard 15th, 25 everything abilities, and his spear turns anything it touches into an ant, no saving throw (I think other gods might be immune though, it doesn't really say). Magic Resistance 85% EDIT: Actually, the ant thing is only if you touch the spear and are an enemy of Odin, not when Odin is fighting with it. It's a spear +5 but he has a +3 bow that fires 10 arrows +3 per round.

Loki has a paltry 300hp, AC -4, #ATT3/2, cleric 12/druid 12/ranger 12/MU 11/Illusionist 20/assassin 15 and Monk 5/bard 5 as well. All his abilities are 24. Magic Resistance 75%. If you look at him for more than 3 minutes he can make you do anything he desires, no save, this applies to all beings although magic resistance works. It doesn't say what he fights with.

I think both of them would batter Demogorgon and Baalzebub, Monster Manual is in another room though and I'm lazy. They got rid of devils and demons in the 2nd editon rules as well.

 

[warpus]

And I say believing in a Creator of this same universe that we see is just as reasonable.

Well, you're wrong.

Besides, you don't just mean the creator, you mean Yahweh. That's even less reasonable.

In any case, we are getting off topic.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

who the hell believes in satan?

I do?

Technically, I might not; my church's Creed (Lutheran) reads "...I believe in God the Almighty Father, Creator of Heaven and Earth..." without mentioning Satan, but separately says "...I forsake the devil and all his doings and..."

Any idea what that bit is called in English? Here, it's "forsakelsen", meaning "the forsaking" or "the abandonment".

 

[Elrohir]

Well, you're wrong.

I'd love to see your proof.

Besides, you don't just mean the creator, you mean Yahweh. That's even less reasonable.

Yahweh is the Creator; I don't see a difference.

In any case, we are getting off topic.

Yes we are, but don't let that stop you from showing your proof that God doesn't exist.

 

[warpus]

I'd love to see your proof.

Believing in the existence of something supernatural, invisible, and never observed & documented is not as reasonable as believing in the existence of the Universe, which we all experience every day.

QED.

Yahweh is the Creator; I don't see a difference.

Wrong. Vāhigurū is the creator.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I proved that the existence/non-existence of God is undecidable around post #66 in this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=230434&page=4

So stop arguing you two... you are both wrong

 

[frob2900]

I've got Deities and Demigods (the ancient 1st edition AD&D rules version). What stats do you need?

Odin has 400hp, AC -6, #ATT2 and is a cleric 30th/druid 14th/ranger 18th/MU 30th/bard 15th, 25 everything abilities, and his spear turns anything it touches into an ant, no saving throw (I think other gods might be immune though, it doesn't really say). Magic Resistance 85% EDIT: Actually, the ant thing is only if you touch the spear and are an enemy of Odin, not when Odin is fighting with it. It's a spear +5 but he has a +3 bow that fires 10 arrows +3 per round.
...
I think both of them would batter Demogorgon and Baalzebub, Monster Manual is in another room though and I'm lazy. They got rid of devils and demons in the 2nd editon rules as well.

Yes, this is very good We were getting off-topic, but now if someone can find D&D stats for "Devil", we can get some actual numbers on Satan so as to really answer the question of how powerful he is.

It is also very helpful from another perspective, since we can then compare Satans stats to those of the Sumerian deities in the "Deities and Demigods" sourcebook. If his stats are lower, then we are safe.

Because, AFAIK, these guys can take out ancient Sumerian deities:

Spoiler :

No need for that bible, just get on the phone, and call!

 

[warpus]

I know, that's why I'm an agnostic... in regards to God of course, not Yahweh, nor Thor, etc.