How real is class war?

[Abegweit]

Clearly what America needs is an old style Labour Party.

You mean a bunch of thugs who steal from workers? No thank you. I was once forced to be a member of a union. I made a few cents above minimum wage. The scum took half of the difference.

 

[Arwon]

That's because American industrial relations is a mess. Closed shops are often a desperate rearguard action, a product of institutional weakness and a sign the workers movement has become demoralised and inward looking and is just trying to protect whatever footholds they still have.

Edit: Then again, just cos you had a crap union (or a union coping with a crap industrial relations system, anyway) doesn't mean they all are. When people are the beneficiaries of effective unions they really should contribute rather than scab. But that's the union's case to make, really.

 

[Abegweit]

That's because American industrial relations is a mess. Closed shops are often a desperate rearguard action, a product of institutional weakness and a sign the workers movement has become demoralised and inward looking and is just trying to protect whatever footholds they still have.

Edit: Then again, just cos you had a crap union (or a union coping with a crap industrial relations system, anyway) doesn't mean they all are. When people are the beneficiaries of effective unions they really should contribute rather than scab. But that's the union's case to make, really.

What I had was a bunch of thieves who stole from poor working folk. Not one of my co-workers supported these scum. They weren't stupid. They knew that the Union Overlords were in cahoots with the bosses to steal from us.

Incidentally, do not use the word "scab" in front of decent people. When I was forced to be a slave of the scum, I would have applauded those who broke their power. I still do.

 

[Arwon]

Luckily, unions in civilised countries aren't so bad! In large part because of an effective (shock, horror) regulatory regime surrounding bargaining and voting and the like.

 

[Abegweit]

Luckily, unions in civilised countries aren't so bad! In large part because of an effective (shock, horror) regulatory regime surrounding bargaining and voting and the like.

Unions are thieving scum. They demagogue the working poor and then steal from them when they get enough political force to create a "regulatory regime" which supports their theft. Like I said, I was a (forced) member of a union. None of my fellow employees supported this bunch of thieves.

 

[Arwon]

Unions are thieving scum. They demagogue the working poor and then steal from them when they get enough political force to create a "regulatory regime" which supports their theft. Like I said, I was a (forced) member of a union. None of my fellow employees supported this bunch of thieves.

...therefore, hundreds of millions of people around the world are STUPID DUPES OR THIEVES because my anecdotal experience is universal

 

[Old Hippy]

Unions are thieving scum. They demagogue the working poor and then steal from them when they get enough political force to create a "regulatory regime" which supports their theft. Like I said, I was a (forced) member of a union. None of my fellow employees supported this bunch of thieves.

I don't know how many times this advice has been given in OT, (many tho) you have the choice to not work at the company if you don't like the conditions, free will and all that...

 

[Verbose]

They could also chose to become politically active, if they don't like the way things are going...

 

[Traitorfish]

If they're so great one wonders why everybody, europeans first and foremost, got rid of them.

As Marshall Sahlins put it, "those who do not know their own functionalism are condemned to repeat it".

 

[Verbose]

If they're so great one wonders why everybody, europeans first and foremost, got rid of them.

Like all successful things, selective bits got co-opted by the opposition to help them win elections. It does mess up the traditional mappings of Left-Right divisions, but doesn't necessarily signify failure. It might even signify political and social evolution, if we're lucky.

 

[luiz]

Like all successful things, selective bits got co-opted by the opposition to help them win elections. It does mess up the traditional mappings of Left-Right divisions, but doesn't necessarily signify failure. It might even signify political and social evolution, if we're lucky.

Sure, parts of it were co-opted by the opposition. But the amount of ideas the Labor parties took from the opposition is even bigger, making modern Labor parties (in most of Europe, anyway) look very little like their pre-70's version.

This suggests to me that the "traditional" Labor parties that Arwon spoke of failed to adapt to the new economic realities, at the eyes of voters at the very least. They were electorally obliterated and don't seem to be coming back. Why recommend to the US something that was rejected in the rest of the rich world?

 

[peter grimes]

Unions are thieving scum. They demagogue the working poor and then steal from them when they get enough political force to create a "regulatory regime" which supports their theft. Like I said, I was a (forced) member of a union. None of my fellow employees supported this bunch of thieves.

I had worked at many non-union shops in my industry as well as temp work at union shops. The union shops were far and away better places to work. Management tended to treat workers with more respect, break times and scheduled hours were adhered to more strongly, the quality/productivity was higher (likely due to more experienced workers), and so on.

Now that I'm in the union I make far more than I did non-union, I actually have health insurance (and dental, eye, life insurance, etc), I don't have to show up for work if I'm sick, and I'm able to take up to 4 weeks off per year.

And this is at one of the employers who was non-union for years. We haven't bankrupted the company with the rise in compensation. Funny, that.

Also, our Union administrators are anything but theives and thugs. Sure, they've got the accent and can let loose with the slang when necessary, but they serve us members with honest effort. They are elected from within the active membership, so they know exactly what it's like to work in the shops they represent. The only area I wish they were a little less strict is in hiring non-union people. Technically we're a right-to-work state, so that means management can hire anyone they want. I see this as a way to bring talented and motivated people into union membership. Not everybody agrees with me.

So please stop picking on unions - you had a bad experience. Not all experiences are like yours. It's not even very relevant to the discussion here.

 

[Cutlass]

Sure, parts of it were co-opted by the opposition. But the amount of ideas the Labor parties took from the opposition is even bigger, making modern Labor parties (in most of Europe, anyway) look very little like their pre-70's version.

This suggests to me that the "traditional" Labor parties that Arwon spoke of failed to adapt to the new economic realities, at the eyes of voters at the very least. They were electorally obliterated and don't seem to be coming back. Why recommend to the US something that was rejected in the rest of the rich world?

Because the low wages to labor are one of the primary drivers of the economic problems in the US and the stagnating income for 80% of Americans.

 

[Quackers]

All class warfare is from the top down. The rich try to hurt the rest because they think they are entitled to do so.

No its not. There are countless greedy unions out their who have won themselves unreasonable pay and benefits. Just have a look at the drivers on the London Underground, all they do all day is push a lever forward to accelerate and push it back to deccelerate - they are compensated £46,000+/annum that is more then teachers and nurses earn in the UK. The only reason why they have such generous salaries is because striking would literally paralyse London, people wouldn't be able to get to work etc, so the only choice is to meet their demands. I think they are also wrangling for a £800+ bonus for the Olympics for doing the same work...
Also these are public servants, so effectively they are striking against the general public!

 

[luiz]

No its not. There are countless greedy unions out their who have won themselves unreasonable pay and benefits. Just have a look at the drivers on the London Underground, all they do all day is push a lever forward to accelerate and push it back to deccelerate - they are compensated £46,000+/annum that is more then teachers and nurses earn in the UK. The only reason why they have such generous salaries is because striking would literally paralyse London, people wouldn't be able to get to work etc, so the only choice is to meet their demands. I think they are also wrangling for a £800+ bonus for the Olympics for doing the same work...
Also these are public servants, so effectively they are striking against the general public!

Replace them for robots.

 

[Quackers]

..hehe it's almost happening. I read that there is an in-builtcomputer which stops the driver from making an error, like accelerating too quickly!

 

[Pangur Bán]

No its not. There are countless greedy unions out their who have won themselves unreasonable pay and benefits. Just have a look at the drivers on the London Underground, all they do all day is push a lever forward to accelerate and push it back to deccelerate - they are compensated £46,000+/annum that is more then teachers and nurses earn in the UK. The only reason why they have such generous salaries is because striking would literally paralyse London, people wouldn't be able to get to work etc, so the only choice is to meet their demands. I think they are also wrangling for a £800+ bonus for the Olympics for doing the same work...
Also these are public servants, so effectively they are striking against the general public!

But this is pretty much how all wages are set. We pay people a certain amount because, one way or another, we have to.

 

[Quackers]

I think it's unfair that they earn so much money for doing such an easy job, don't you?
I would prefer teachers to earn more of that money. Someone who actually has a difficult, stressful job rather then guys sitting in a chair pulling a lever back and forth!

 

[Pangur Bán]

I think it's unfair that they earn so much money for doing such an easy job, don't you?
I would prefer teachers to earn more of that money. Someone who actually has a difficult, stressful job rather then guys sitting in a chair pulling a lever back and forth!

It's unfair that people on hedge funds "earn" several thousand times the salary of nurses or that just as many sit around doing nothing and "earn" even more, but that's life. The little guys need to stop going after each other and go after the real parasites.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

I think it's unfair that they earn so much money for doing such an easy job, don't you?
I would prefer teachers to earn more of that money. Someone who actually has a difficult, stressful job rather then guys sitting in a chair pulling a lever back and forth!

Societies pay jobs based solely on how difficult they are?